Pizza Dough Dilemma

[phaelon56]

I threw the salt in with the yeast after the yeast had bubbled for a bit and I was putting in the joney and olive oil. Despite using only 1/3 of the package of yeast I got plenty of rising action through the first two days, particularly when the dough was left out at room temp for awhile.

Yes, Sam, thanks for the explanation. My local Italian import store has two huge buckets - one labeled as semolina and the other as durum flour. I bough the durum and think that with that as 50% of the dough content I can skip the extra gluten that I added. I had a friend over for dinner and used up the last bit of Sunday's dough to make him a small pie (I ate pasta - not enough dough left for two). He was blown away by the pie - I tasted a bit and damned if the dough hadn't taken on more flavor and texture now that we were into the third day. Interesting. I plan to do another batch this weekend and will keep searching for that perfect (for me) balance.

Just curious - what is it that the 20% pastry flour does, Sam? Is it to make the dough lighter or does it affect the flavor as well?

[scott123]

Semolina, strictly speaking, is a coarse, gritty milling of wheat (usually durum). It is not, in my opinion, particularly useful for pizza dough other than as lubrication on the peel.

I concur. I'd venture to say that's what your pizzeria was doing with the semolina. Unless their crust had a slightly yellow hue, I would say the semolina was being used on the peel and not in the dough.

[JosephB]

I also have a 5 ton brick oven in my backyard that bakes a pizza in under three minutes.

OK McDuff, if you're within striking distance of NYC, you have to invite me over for some pizza making in that oven. I'll supply the ingredients. OK, the wood too.

[scott123]

I'm a big Reinhart fan, use his foccacia formula from Crust and Crumb for pizza, and in this case, maybe Shirley is talking out of her butt. Knead more yeast into a retarded dough? No way. If you have to do that, there's something wrong with the formula.

I agree. Adding yeast to retarded dough is a bit sketchy, but I do agree with her when she states that yeast loses some of it's punch in doughs retarded overnight. I've noticed that as well in my own breads/pizza crusts.

And I am by no way dissing Reinhart. I use a few of his bread recipes religiously. It's just that if one were to aspire to replicate John's pizza, Reinhart would be the last recipe to follow.

Edited April 15, 2004 by scott123 (log)

[JosephB]

Are any of you Renhart fans using his Neapolitan or Neo-Neapolitan dough recipes from his book, American Pie ? If so, what do you think? Or has he published these same recipes in his other books?

[scott123]

I did find myself getting better results when it was subsequently allowed to warm up for several hours before stretching  rather than working with it in a relatively cold state.

If you're in a hurry to work with cold dough, I've noticed that you can speed up the warming time by gently flattening the dough as far as it will comfortably spread every 15 minutes or so. I say gently because very cold dough is less extensible and has a greater tendency for the gluten to tear. The increased surface area (a flat disk rather than a round ball) will shorten your warming time substantially.

[phaelon56]

Semolina, strictly speaking, is a coarse, gritty milling of wheat (usually durum). It is not, in my opinion, particularly useful for pizza dough other than as lubrication on the peel.

I concur. I'd venture to say that's what your pizzeria was doing with the semolina. Unless their crust had a slightly yellow hue, I would say the semolina was being used on the peel and not in the dough.

They were buying it in multiple 50 pound bags and the dough did have a slightly yellowish hue. I'm guessing that they were using it in the dough. Even one 50 pound bag would last one hell of a long time on the peels.

[achevres]

I recently made pizza at home using the recipe from The Bread Baker's Apprentice: Mastering the Art of Extraordinary Bread.

I have the utmost respect for Peter Reinhart when it comes to bread. When it comes to pizzas or bagels, though, he is not in a New York state of mind. There may be a handful of exceptions, but typical NY Vulcan Pizza is:

1. A relatively lean if not completely lean dough.

2. Made from high protein bread flour.

I'll bet my life on it.

You are right, of course, about the recipe used in New York pizzerias (and in Italy), but my point was to say that in a home oven with a stone insert and common ingredients, the recipe from The Baker's Apprentice gave me the closest thing to New York pizza crust I have ever made, and I have tried many, many times,always with lean recipes. I can get bread flour and have "authentic" recipes, but I'm not in New York, with that great New York water (my favorite!), and I don't have a restaurant-type oven, so I have to work with what I have.

[JosephB]

I recently made pizza at home using the recipe from The Bread Baker's Apprentice: Mastering the Art of Extraordinary Bread.

I have the utmost respect for Peter Reinhart when it comes to bread. When it comes to pizzas or bagels, though, he is not in a New York state of mind. There may be a handful of exceptions, but typical NY Vulcan Pizza is:

1. A relatively lean if not completely lean dough.

2. Made from high protein bread flour.

I'll bet my life on it.

You are right, of course, about the recipe used in New York pizzerias (and in Italy), but my point was to say that in a home oven with a stone insert and common ingredients, the recipe from The Baker's Apprentice gave me the closest thing to New York pizza crust I have ever made, and I have tried many, many times,always with lean recipes. I can get bread flour and have "authentic" recipes, but I'm not in New York, with that great New York water (my favorite!), and I don't have a restaurant-type oven, so I have to work with what I have.

FYI,

Reinhart considers his Neo-Neapolitan dough recipe (American Pie) to be representative of the classic NY-Style pizza.

[phaelon56]

There have been discussions in other areas of eGullet lately that poo-poohed the idea of water being such an important factor but I disagree. Where I was living in North jersey until recently, we had one truly great local pizzeria (Cafe New York). Their other and original locationw as in Brooklyn - they made the dough in Brooklyn with NYC water and brought it over to NJ on a daily basis. I would have to think that they must have tried to make good dough with NJ water and just couldn't get the results they wanted. Fat Guy contends that there are excellent bagels in NJ and that this fact alone disproves the water theory. I don't know what's different about pizza dough from bagel dough but will admit that the bagel shop in my little NJ town had great bagels.

It's also worth noting that some parts of NJ most likely have good fresh water reservoir systems that provide good quality drinking water. My little NJ borough shared the same water distribution systems as Newark - totally undrinkable crap.

Even here in Syracuse where I now reside, we have both good and bad water. The good stuff comes from Skaneatles Lake (one of the Finger Lakes) and it's just as drinkable straight from the tap as NYC water - as good or better. New parts of the city and outlying areas towards the northern and western suburbs get their water from Lake Ontario - 'nuff said about that - it can be salvaged only with a Britta filter or its equivalent.

[McDuff]

I also have a 5 ton brick oven in my backyard that bakes a pizza in under three minutes.

OK McDuff, if you're within striking distance of NYC, you have to invite me over for some pizza making in that oven. I'll supply the ingredients. OK, the wood too.

I'm 40 miles southwest of Boston, about 30 miles north of Providence and 23 miles east of Worcester. 95 north to 495 north, and you're here. Or 84 to I-90. (It's been a long time since I've been to Nuevo York.) There's nothing quite like tending the fire all day, then stepping down the back steps with the pizza on the peel, and three minutes later bringing it in the house. I made 21 pizzas in it one day.

[carp]

Wolfgang Puck has a pretty good pizza dough recipe that you can find on the Food Network's site (foodtv.com). He uses honey and I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I always get great results...

[JosephB]

I also have a 5 ton brick oven in my backyard that bakes a pizza in under three minutes.

OK McDuff, if you're within striking distance of NYC, you have to invite me over for some pizza making in that oven. I'll supply the ingredients. OK, the wood too.

I'm 40 miles southwest of Boston, about 30 miles north of Providence and 23 miles east of Worcester. 95 north to 495 north, and you're here. Or 84 to I-90. (It's been a long time since I've been to Nuevo York.) There's nothing quite like tending the fire all day, then stepping down the back steps with the pizza on the peel, and three minutes later bringing it in the house. I made 21 pizzas in it one day.

I have room for 7 in the mini van. I hear that Boston is lovely in May.

[McDuff]

I have room for 7 in the mini van. I hear that Boston is lovely in May.

So how about a Summer Solstice/St. John's Day kind of thing? Bonfires, first vegetables of summer, bread, golden cheeses, mead and wine at the hour of dusk. My wife puts two stipulations on it...backyard needs to be a little more presentable, and the new pantry has to be finished. At least she didn't insist on the greenhouse window being done. I've got the time for that stuff...money is an issue. I try to string these little projects along. BTW, I mentioned in another thread that I helped a guy about 25 miles away in R.I. bake his bread on a Sunday morning in a 6 x 8 Alan Scott oven. That was sorta fun. I'm up for this if anybody else is.

[Llantha]

There was a reference earlier in this post to Alton Brown's Pizza but the link is broken. The show was recast last week and the working link is here.

The recipe posted is just half of the story- the missing bits are here. It makes sense if you read it with the recipe.

This pizza worked out real well for me but these are the details from the show and from my experience making his recipe.

Substitute finely ground semolina flour for about a third of the four. The recipe will make one pizza per person- one cup of flour per person. It doubles easily in a KitchenAid hog mixer.

These pizzas take a day to make because the dough works with the yeast in the fridge for 18 to 24 hours. They take 6 or 7 minutes to cook and one pizza will feed one. This is a recipe for 2 small pizzas. You can make the dough for them every weekend and have a pizza each week!

If you are using regular yeast, add it and the sugar to the water and let it proof for 5 minutes or so. Then add the salt, flour, and oil and mix it.

If you don't have a dough mixer/bread machine the hand kneading will take 30 minutes at least. You can knead 10 minutes and rest for 5 to make it easier, but you still need to work the dough for 30-40 actual kneading minutes. Bread Machine Flour (I use King Arthur) is the hardest easily available flour in the States. If you are doing it by hand, consider just using standard Bread Flour.

Tear off a thumb-sized piece of dough and flatten it into a disc. Stretch the dough until it's thin. Hold it up to the light with your thumb and forefingers of both hands and wiggle your middle finger behind it and look to see whether the "baker's windowpane" has formed. You will easily be able to see the shadow of your finger through the dough if it had been needed enough. If the dough tears before it forms such a thin membrane, knead it for an additional 5 to 10 minutes. (Double that if you are going it by hand. Don't worry about taking frequent breaks so long as you leave the dough lightly covered. Resting will help form gluten nearly as much as kneading will.)

Pull the dough into a smooth ball gathering it at the bottom. Roll the pizza dough, gathered portion at the bottom, into a smooth ball on the countertop. Cup your hands around it and move your hands in a circle swooping the dough in the space confined by your hands. Place it into a stainless steel or glass bowl. Add a couple of teaspoons of olive oil to the bowl and toss the dough around to coat both the dough and the bowl lightly with oil.

Let it rise in the fridge.

Place the pizza stone or tile onto the bottom of a cold oven and turn the oven to its highest temperature, about 500 degrees F (my 50 year old Caloric goes to 600 ). If the oven has coils on the oven floor, place the tile onto the lowest rack of the oven. Split the pizza dough into as many equal parts as you used cups of flour by using a knife or a dough scraper. Flatten into a disk onto the countertop and then fold the dough into a ball.

AB says "Toss the dough in the air if you dare." This is fun- use the backs of your hands (and turn any sharp rings toward your palms so they don't tear the dough). Just keep your eye on the dough when you toss it. The point is to give it a spin so that physics centrifugal force thing will stretch it for you. If you get it stretched where you want it and it contracts on you, let it rest 5 to 10 minutes and reform it. You can work both/all the rounds in order in this way and they will all get the rest they want. Shake the pizza on the peel to be sure that it will slide onto the pizza stone or tile. (Dress and bake the pizza immediately for a crisp crust or rest the dough for 30 minutes if you want a chewy texture.)

If you want a thicker crust, shoot for about a 10" pizza. If you want the thin crust, shoot for 12". I heartily recommend that you try it that way at least once though- stretch it to 12" AND let it rest a half hour. You probably could do a larger pizza with double dough, but until you get the hang of it I advise working out your style on the smaller ones. (<== Speaks from experience.)

Instant Yeast

As a final note, my pizza stone lives in my gas oven. It increases the heat mass and will help stabilize the baking temperature for anthing I bake.

Hope this was useful and thanks to Alton Brown for finally making a pizza dough recipe even I can make (I am an uber-sucky baker.)

[Behemoth]

Help!

Until now I had been using Marcella Hazan's pizza dough recipe, which I've always been able to toss into shape. Decided to try the Peter Reinhart version, which involves instant yeast, overnight in the fridge, 2 hrs on counter etc etc. After 2 hours on the counter the stuff is so soft it stretches too much in the middle, nearly see-through with some holes. And I mean, after only 2 or 3 rather gentle tosses. Other than that, I like the texture & taste much better than the Hazan version. The recipe worked exactly as described until that point.

Am I doing something wrong? Am I a no-style no-skillz loser? Am I forever doomed to rolling my pies out (horrors!) with a pin? Should I start working it sooner while its still a little firm? A lot of people on here seem to be fans of the Reinhardt books, so I figured someone may have dealt with this already, or have some ideas.

(edited for clarity)

Edited June 22, 2004 by Behemoth (log)