Bay Leaf/Bay Leaves: The Topic

[eatrustic]

I have a lovely littly Bay Laurier "tree" (about 4 ft. high). My problem is that always having used dry Bay leaves I find the fresh ones overpowering in soups, stews etc. to the point of being unusable even in smaller quantities.

I would expect fresh anything to be more intense but I get an almost medicinal quality from these fresh leaves. Should they "cure" for a few days or should I simply dry them out and take it from there?

[fatmat]

I have a lovely littly Bay Laurier "tree" (about 4 ft. high). My problem is that always having used dry Bay leaves I find the fresh ones overpowering in soups, stews etc. to the point of being unusable even in smaller quantities.

I would expect fresh anything to be more intense but I get an almost medicinal quality from these fresh leaves. Should they "cure" for a few days or should I simply dry them out and take it from there?

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Have you tried drying them? It may be that they are still really pungent, and that the problem is the variety, not the freshness.

I've started using fresh ones from our garden, and find the flavour to be richer, but not overpowering or unpleasant.

[piazzola]

Bayleaves or laurel as I kow them are one of my basic spices I used them for almost everything in the kitchen and beyond

I have never had any trees since they are plenty in the neighbourhood

Younger leaves are not good but older and darker leaves are ok to use and you'll find no different to the dried and brittle ones

[kitchenmage]

it sounds like a california bay, not a sweet bay... they are very different and 've had no luck (nor much desire) with the california due to the medicinal qualities you describe...

[carswell]

it sounds like a california bay, not a sweet bay... they are very different and 've had no luck (nor much desire) with the california due to the medicinal qualities you describe...

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I agree. For sweet bay, cookbooks usually recommend using two fresh leaves to replace one dried leaf, and that's not even taking into account that herbs grown on a windowsill are usually less pungent than those grown outdoors. Also, while I've never cooked with fresh California bay, the labels on the jars the dried leaves come in always say to use half a leaf when substituting for one leaf of sweet bay.

[sanrensho]

We use fresh bay leaves almost exclusively. Our neighbour has a tree and gives us piles of bay leaves. We simply wash them, towel them off and pop them in the freezer for later use. I haven't noticed the medicinal quality you mention.

[eatrustic]

Wow! I thought I knew my Bay plants but this sure sounds like the California Bay. As I mentioned before the flavor is way too dominant in anything I've made to be anything but the California variety.

Oh well it's a nice looking plant. I'll just have to pick up a real Bay in the Spring.

Thanks for the info.

[fifi]

I went a-googling and I have to say that I am now confused as to which bay is which . . . I mean genus and species-wise. I have no idea what the g&s is of the cemetary tree that we use. I always thought that the bay we use here in the Southern US was an indigenous tree, most often found in the forest understory.

The USDA listing really only seems to have the California bay and it is Laurus nobilis. I am assuming that is California bay because the USDA map only has California marked. It appears that they may be wrong.

Then the Virginia Dept. of Forestry lists Magnolia virginiana as "sweet bay" but it has a magnolia looking flower that I don't remember ever seeing. They don't mention any culinary uses, either. But then, I found this reference.

Then to get more confusing . . . clickety!

Then that site comes up with Umbellularia californica as California bay. Penzey's makes some disparaging remarks about "California Bay" but they don't give the g&s. I am guessing that Turkish bay is Laurus nobilis.

If you aren't confused yet, you aren't listening.

[kitchenmage]

here's my data:

sweet bay= turkish bay = laurus nobilus = perfect for most cooking

california bay = umbrellularia californica = too strong for most cooking

the magnolia florida bay thing is neither and it certainly isn't sweet bay!

fresh sweet bay smells different from dry bay -- there's warm spicy tones, vanilla, nutmeg, stuff like that...

(and i just verified this against the Herbfarm cookbooks so i am pretty clear on what i'm saying...and growing... and that the USDA is wrong)

still confused?

[eatrustic]

Hmmmm.....Now I'm back to being confused because the links to the Bay pictures above indicate my Bay is the Lauras Nobilis which is what I thought it was originally.

The reddish branches and less elongated leaves do not at all resemble the California variety.

It looks Turkish and cooks Californian!

[kitchenmage]

It looks Turkish and cooks Californian!

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Odd. So is there a chance it's the Florida bay? I'm not familiar with them. (We're on day 25 of rain, I am as far from Flrida as it gets!) Look at the last picture here. It's more turkish/sweet bay-like than many I've seen, and magnolias take a long time to start flowering. Has yours flowered at all?

In any case, you should definitely find a true sweet bay. Mine came from Monrovia (if that's available locally) but any good nursery will be able to find one. The last place I lived had a nursery with several people who cooked a lot so my herbs were always good.

[eatrustic]

I hear you on the rain Kitchenmage, we're on the same weatherfront in Vancouver.

(Supposed to set a record for consecutive days of rain -28- soon.)

I doubt that it's Florida as it doesn't quite look the same and has never flowered.

So, yes, I'll buy a new plant in the Spring and try again.

[andiesenji]

There are several unusual varieties of bay that do not usually show up in the literature unless you can find a reference to it.

The California native bay or mountain laurel, has longer, narrower leaves and should not be used in food because of the high levels of safrole. Some people tell you it is okay in foods and many Mexican people use it but it really is not. Safrole is a carcinogen. The aroma from the crushed leaves can cause severe headaches when inhaled,.

It works great as an insect repellant when you are out in the woods but not in the house and one should never inhale the smoke from burning leaves.

The Greek bay or laurus nobilis is also known as sweet bay and you can tell the difference immediately. The scent of the crushed leaves is sweet and spicy with none of the chemical/kerosene scent of the California native.

Laurus nobilis has been known by a number of names, depending on the country in which it is gathered. There is a Persian or red bay that is also used in cooking.

The very rare Canary island bay is also a sweet bay and grows alongside the common sweet bay. They are a protected plant and are no longer exported. There is one in the Huntington Gardens. In the latter half of the 19th century a number were imported into the U.S. and can be found in botanical gardens, sometimes mis-labeled, according to the arborist at the Huntington. They are larger than laurus nobilis and have a distinctive natural umbrella shape. Laurus azoricus

Purdue University has details of the chemicals involved.

I have several bay "bushes" which have to be protected when the temperature dips below 25 degrees. I keep them small so they can easily be covered with burlap blankets.

They used to overwinter in the greenhouse but about 8 years ago I experimented with one and when it survived with minimal protection I moved the others outside except for one which was trained and trimmed as a standard (round "lollipop" top on a single stem) which I gave away last year.

The leaves are easy to dry, just pick and leave in a wire collander and toss them every few days so they all dry evenly.

Edited January 13, 2006 by andiesenji (log)

[JCD]

I collect the California bay and cook with it--but definitely use WAY LESS (like 1/2 a leaf) in recipies. Punches up a spaghetti sauce just fine but it is really strong.

I will think twice now that I have been alerted to it's carcinogenic qualities....

[Pierogi]

I scored some beautiful fresh bay leaves at the Farmer's Market on Thursday, and I have no experiece with how to keep them. I'd prefer that they didn't dry out (got plenty of those in my pantry) and that they keep their moisture and well...."freshness".

I asked the woman at the stall how to handle them, and she said they'd stay fresh if I just left them on the counter. Well, her counter must be different than mine, because only 3 days later, they're pretty brittle. Its a good size bunch, maybe 5 or 6 stems about 6-inches long each, with about 4 or 5 leaves each. I've only used ONE leaf ! It was darned good in what I used in, and I'd sure like to have these babies in my arsenal of fresh herbs.

I'm ok with writing this batch up to experiece (and drying) but how should I handle them if I purchase them again? In a baggie in the fridge? Wrapped up in a damp paper towel?

Thanks so much in advance.

Oh.......there was a small rubber band wrapped around the base of the bunch. Should I have removed that as well?

[Kouign Aman]

Perhaps you could treat them like cut flowers: trim the stem ends and place them in a glass or vase of water.

[Lisa1349]

I put mine in the freezer. When I buy them at the grocery store, there's like 50 leaves in the pack which last a few months for me. They retain their moisture and wonderful freshness there. In the fridge they last a long time, but lose moisture and "umph".

[Fat Guy]

Yup. Fresh bay leaves freeze really well. I've had a small bag in the freezer for like two years and they're still in great shape. I use them so rarely that the bag will probably last me another year or two.

[Lisa1349]

I use them so rarely that the bag will probably last me another year or two.

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What? For an ample cook such as you, there should be much bay leaf usage! For all those beans done in the oven, and stocks, broths, court bouillon...

I got some of the best cooking adivce from Lidia Bastianich. Bay leaf in tomato sauce gives it 'an extra savoriness'. Makes it really special.

[Fat Guy]

Because they're in the freezer, I always forget about them!

[andiesenji]

Bay leaves do freeze well. Squeeze as much air out of the container as possible. If you have a vacuum sealer, they will keep even longer.

Continue to use the dried leaves, their flavor actually concentrates as the water evaporates and the percentage of essential oil increases.

If you like using fresh bay leaves, grown your own. It's much easier than most herbs.

I have bay trees (actually tall bushes because I trim the tops) in my garden but I have dug up many scions and potted them up as gifts, shaping them as a "standard" - that is a ball shape at the top of a single trunk (stem).

Two have been living happily at Mammoth mountain for more than four years, one is living in South Lake Tahoe and one is living in Appleton, Wisconsin, moving outside in late April and back inside in September. Several are scattered around southern California and one is happily residing on the deck of a boathouse near Seattle.

If kept in a sunny window with good air circulation and in a pot with good drainage, the bay or laurel nobilis performs very well as a house plant and it will certainly produce enough leaves for even a serious cook. In fact, they can be vigorous growers and need to be trimmed fairly often.

They can be maintained in the same pot for years, if one also does root trimming every year or so.

[dougal]

Yes, if you want them fresh, leave them on the tree until you need them!

Once you have even a small bush, the problem becomes keeping it small!

Even putting prunings onto the charcoal of the barbecue, one can easily still have a problem of overproduction.

Interesting that there is a market for such things.

Now... how could I effectively address that target market?

Oh well, another fragrant bonfire, I fear...

[Smithy]

Hmm. Andie, how high up Mammoth Mountain? Would there be hope for a bay bush in northern Minnesota? Outside, I mean? Or would it need to be brought inside for the winter like my citrus?

Edited September 10, 2007 by Smithy (log)

[Jon Savage]

Hmm.  Andie, how high up Mammoth Mountain?  Would there be hope for a bay bush in northern Minnesota?  Outside, I mean?  Or would it need to be brought inside for the winter like my citrus?

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I think it needs nothing colder than zone 8 so it would need to be brought indoors for the winter.

[andiesenji]

Check the link I posted. It is very specific.

Both the plants in Mammoth live inside year round - one in an atrium, one in a "bump-out" greenhouse window that is six feet high - the "tree" is four feet tall, including the pot. It has a southern exposure.

When my trees were young (planted in '88) I wrapped them with burlap and stuffed straw and leaves around them when temps below freezing were predicted. After they were well established I didn't bother but I had some frost damage four or five years ago when temps got down to single digits - and also last winter when we had a low of 4 degrees. I cut most of the stems back to below the point of frost damage, but allowed some to remain (mostly to remind me to protect them when a severe freeze is predicted).

Mine are in shade for most of the year, and protected from the severe summer sun and wind by a hedge of rosemary. This area is an ancient seabed and drainage is excellent. The main problem with growing bay in otherwise ideal climates, is clay soil with poor drainage.

A friend who lives in south Georgia finally resorted to digging a deep pit, filled it mostly with gravel and sand, well tamped, then filled the remaining space with commercial planting soil and now has a nice-sized tree.

Here is a phot of the bases of some young scions. To give you an example of size, there is a green plant stake at the left of the photo - 1/2 inch in diameter.

This is what frost damage looks like. The top of this plant is almost 10 feet tall.

These are older trees, the largest is 3 3/4 inches in diameter:

The scions grow up from a lateral root. Once they have developed six or more branches, the root from the parent tree can be severed and a couple of months later the scion can be transplanted. Once I have cut the lateral root, I put flat black plastic barriers on the ground so additional shoots won't grow near the scion I intend to transplant, so it will develop a strong root system.

The top of the big one is 15 feet tall: It is growing under a fruitless mulberry.

Edited September 11, 2007 by andiesenji (log)