"Undervalued" restaurants

[Fat Guy]

A friend today asked what I think are the best "undervalued" restaurants in New York City. By that I think she meant places that are as good as the places with a lot of critical and popular acclaim, but that don't have the same kind of buzz. I didn't really have a good answer on the tip of my tongue, so I thought I'd bring it back here.

Needless to say, you're not allowed to answer with Momofuku Ssam Bar.

[Sneakeater]

I think Veritas is undervalued, inasmuch as the switch to the current chef, Gregory Pugin, received almost no critical attention. No one seems to know that it is now one of the best classic French restaurants in the City.

I think Oceana is undervalued.

I think Benoit under it's new chef, Pierre Schaedelin, is undervalued.

[daisy17]

I would have said Cru before it was announced that Shea Gallante was leaving. Never understood why people didn't talk about it (and go there) more.

[oakapple]

I'm surprised you didn't respond: Beacon. Although any regular of this forum will be aware of it, Beacon gets practically no press anywhere else.

[sickchangeup]

I'm surprised you didn't respond: Beacon. Although any regular of this forum will be aware of it, Beacon gets practically no press anywhere else.

←

Hmmm....Seems to me we need to make a distinction between a restaurant that has a stupendous meal deal once or twice a week for those in the know, from one who's regular menu prices are largely driven upwards simply due to it's presumably expensive location off 5th Avenue. Based on a recent work related visit, $14 Caeser Salad starters ($24 if you want the chicken) and a $9 side of fries struck me as slightly abusive.

Edited June 24, 2009 by sickchangeup (log)

[Pan]

Has there been any press for Cantoon Garden? I found out about it because of coverage on Chowhound, and it's the best Cantonese banquet restaurant I've been to in Manhattan since at least the heyday of Congee Village several years ago but probably better. You know the soft shell crabs at Great NY Noodletown that got such good press years ago? The rendition at Cantoon Garden - not salt-baked (actually salt-fried) but fried with a great sauce - blows them to smithereens, even when Noodletown was more consistent (in recent years, they've been too greasy and salty too often for me to keep ordering them). They also make the best equivalent to "House Special Chicken" (they call it "Crispy Chicken" or "Crispy Fried Chicken," I think) I've ever had in New York; a wonderful circle-cut carp with a complex, scallion-laden brown sauce; possibly the best Beef with Orange Flavor I've ever had; wonderful fried rice with lots of stuff in it; excellent seafood and tofu casseroles; etc. Not everything there is great, to be sure, but I've had a bunch of really wonderful dishes there. Meanwhile, it probably hasn't had a facelift in 30 years and is the kind of place you'd never walk into if someone didn't tell you about it. Banquets only; their portions are way too big for individual dining. Thank me later.

[weinoo]

Has there been any press for Cantoon Garden?

←

But how does this qualify as an undervalued restaurant?

Was it empty? Was it significantly different in price from, say, Congee Village?

I think what the OP is looking for is restaurants where you walk in, have a meal,

and then lean back and say, "why isn't this place packed?"

[Fat Guy]

Why isn't it packed or why is it packed but only with a weird demographic of people who don't know/care about food.

[ellenost]

I think Oceana is undervalued.

←

I disagree about Oceana. While the food is good, the service from the maitre d' was horrid. I had lunch at Oceana in December (the place was 90% empty and remained empty throughout the lunch service). Maitre d' still wanted to seat me at a bad table (next to the door); when I objected he seats me at another bad table (right by the entrance to the kitchen so every waiter has to pass my table). I didn't refuse because I didn't want to make a fuss, but talk about poor judgment of the maitre d'. I haven't been back since, and I've posted about my experience on other sites. I hope Oceana's management wises up and fires this guy. Oceana is not undervalued with this type of service.

[oakapple]

I think Oceana is undervalued.

←

I disagree about Oceana.

←

One must recognize that food board meal reports suffer from a small sample size. Since we're spending our own money, we are not likely to make repeat investments in places where we have a poor experience, even though that experience may be atypical.

[Fat Guy]

One must recognize that food board meal reports suffer from a small sample size. Since we're spending our own money, we are not likely to make repeat investments in places where we have a poor experience, even though that experience may be atypical.

←

I guess I'm not sure what you're trying to establish here, but I should point out that this is the case with nearly all meal reports and recommendations, online or not, "food board" or not. The only people who routinely pay for return visits to restaurants they don't like are professional critics and masochists.

[Sneakeater]

I think what oakapple means is that if I say that I think that Oceana is "undervalued," ellenost's single bad service experience, which may be atypical, doesn't counter my opinion the way, say, a whole series of posts by lots of people complaining of bad service might.

To be really verbose, here's something I wrote in repsonse but decided not to post (but now will):

If I went somewhere where I thought the food was good but there was a service glitch, I don't think I'd tell someone else simply, "don't go there."

I think I'd say "the food was good but there was a service glitch."

The reason for that is that across-the-board bad food is pretty irreparable (unless you change chefs), and so that would be a ground for a simple directive to avoid. But service glitches can be one-offs, and so I don't think can properly be the basis of such a directive on the basis of only one bad experience.

The fact that service glitches can be one-offs is, in fact, evidenced by my opinion that Oceana is undervalued. Does ellenost think I'd say that if I had bad service there? Obviously, I wouldn't. What happened to her is terrible, but we'd need more data points to hold that against the restaurant as a general matter.

(Same thing if an otherwise good place has a bad feature that might bother some people more than others. Say a place is very noisy. If I thought the food was good, I'd say something like, "the food was good, but I thought it was too noisy." I wouldn't just say, "don't go," or "I can't understand why anyone goes there." Some people don't mind noise.)

Edited June 24, 2009 by Sneakeater (log)

[sickchangeup]

This really is a hard list. The only thing I can add to this list would be the 10 course meal at Degustation. I hesitate to add it to this list, cause a $75 meal (before tax and tip) isn't something that will ever be undervalued to some people. Especially when, by way of example, one of the ten dishes may involve you eating a deep fried half split head of a small rouget, along with it's entire deep fried spine and tail (and also a grilled filet from the same fish).

But I can say that it remains incredibly undervalued for me. I actually went back to back between Ko and Degustation, and will be returning to Degustation first and probably second as well.

Now, the thing that makes it incredibly undervalued to me is not just the food. If it was its own food plus the service of a place like Ko, then maybe it's closer to being properly valued at $75. What blew me away were the service standards, they are incredibly high, and I value them as such. I'm not talking "friendly waiter/waitress" like at a place like USQ. I'm talking I experienced better execution of formal dining service standards at Degustation than I did at Adour. It was almost in the ballpark with a place as good as Le Berndardin. Two very high level hosts handled the whole meal with tremendous grace, switching out plates/cups/silverware with great dexterity for every course, announced every ingredient of every dish with great accuracy and knowledge (most of the 10 courses aren't even on the menu, some had 5+ ingredients) and they also communicated with the kitchen staff (this is a bar, so they basically communicate through/above you) with the necessary level of discretion. The flair in the pouring of the Txacoli was a nice touch as well. If like me, great service adds value to you, then I'd recommend it as undervalued.

[Sneakeater]

I think Degustation is undervalued, too.

Which is ironic, because I nevertheless have trouble getting in.

PS -- I don't think that by "undervalued" FG meant not priced as expensively as the quality of the food and service would justify. I think he meant not held in sufficient esteem by the kind of people who read these boards:

Why isn't it packed or why is it packed but only with a weird demographic of people who don't know/care about food.

←

Edited June 24, 2009 by Sneakeater (log)

[gastrodamus]

I think Degustation is undervalued, too.

Which is ironic, because I nevertheless have trouble getting in.

PS -- I don't think that by "undervalued" FG meant not priced as expensively as the quality of the food and service would justify.  I think he meant not held in sufficient esteem by the kind of people who read these boards:

Why isn't it packed or why is it packed but only with a weird demographic of people who don't know/care about food.

←

←

agree. degus and arguably JLOB are def undervalued. allegretti (since bruni's review anyway), kuma inn, falai, bacaro and cafe katja do not get the level of attention they deserve on culinary boards.

[weinoo]

allegretti (since bruni's review anyway), kuma inn, falai, bacaro and cafe katja do not get the level of attention they deserve on culinary boards.

←

Shhh. Don't know if I agree about Katja, which I have enough trouble getting into, and which I've posted about any number of times, as have a few other food board denizens.

[Sneakeater]

I was going to list Allegretti. Completely agree.

Ironically, I was thinking of listing Kuma Inn in the "overvalued" thread. Takes all kinds.

[gastrodamus]

allegretti (since bruni's review anyway), kuma inn, falai, bacaro and cafe katja do not get the level of attention they deserve on culinary boards.

←

Shhh. Don't know if I agree about Katja, which I have enough trouble getting into, and which I've posted about any number of times, as have a few other food board denizens.

←

i'm retracting katja! glad it's getting attention.

Ironically, I was thinking of listing Kuma Inn in the "overvalued" thread.  Takes all kinds.

←

haha. yes, to each his own.

[Fat Guy]

arguably JLOB

←

I had a good meal there. Incidentally it was Deathwatched by Eater two years ago.

Crispo comes to mind as a possibility.

Monday Room.

Peasant?

[LPShanet]

I'd concur with Degustation based on my recent meals there, and agree about Monday Room, though I think that may also be due to an effort by fans to keep it on the DL. My current vote is Elettaria. And a few worth discussing are En Japanese Brasserie, Matsugen (which is good value if you get the prix fixe), Toqueviille, Perilla, and Annisa. There were a few that closed already that some on the boards might have listed, such as P*ong and Gilt, though both would get polarized responses (love and hate).

Just to clarify here, my understanding is that we're using the term "undervalued" to mean underappreciated rather than being a good financial value. A few of the posts seem to assume the latter (that "undervalued" refers to price-related value), which I'm guessing is a misunderstanding.

[Fat Guy]

That's my understanding, not that I understand the topic I started all that well.

I agree that Toqueviille is worth talking about. My one meal at Elettaria was not impressive, but I keep hearing good things about it. When you rattle off all those others, it makes me feel out of the loop.

Craftbar is very good. Is it in the underappreciated category?

[taion]

Actually, all of Jack Lamb's restaurants are Deathwatched, oddly enough.

Degustation is definitely a fantastic value, and I'm a huge fan of the restaurant. It seems to get less attention from the food sites, even though the attention that it does get seems to be fairly positive; on the flip side, it's not quite as easy to walk into as Ssam Bar, for example. But I don't think it's as underappreciated as many of the other restaurants listed here.

JLOB is very underappreciated, though; it gets almost zero publicity and attention, and certainly deserves more than that.

[LPShanet]

When you rattle off all those others, it makes me feel out of the loop.

←

Meaning you didn't think they were underappreciated or that you were unfamiliar with their reputations at all? I always think of you as someone more in the food loop than almost anyone:)

[Fat Guy]

It means once you become a parent you get out a lot less.

[LPShanet]

It means once you become a parent you get out a lot less.

←

I've heard tell of this phenomenon. Luckily, I don't think the world would trust me to raise anything more complicated than a dog.