Sous Vide Braises

[cigno1]

Hey all,

I figured IMHO that a thread that dealt with times and temps for braise cuts specifically would be useful.

I am looking for times and temps for lamb shoulder. There are so many different recipes out there. I was wondering if anyone had any experience with this cut and if they could give me any real info.

thanks in advance,

Chris

Edited March 12, 2009 by cigno1 (log)

[slkinsey]

I am preparing to do three boned-out veal breasts. I'm going to roll and bind with Activa, then cook 24 hours at 67C inspired by Alex and Aki at the brilliant Ideas in Food.

[cigno1]

I am preparing to do three boned-out veal breasts.  I'm going to roll and bind with Activa, then cook 24 hours at 67C inspired by Alex and Aki at the brilliant Ideas in Food.

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will these times and temps yeild similar effects on all collagen and fat rich meats?The veal breast on the right in that picture is raw no? Could the temp be increased to cut the cooking times? If so what would the subsequent effects on the finished texture?

[slkinsey]

These are all questions that can only be answered with experimentation. I will say that in my experience cooking at, say, 80C for 12 hours does not give the same result as cooking at 65C for 24 hours. Needless to say, the different times and temperatures are going to favor different reactions.

[cigno1]

These are all questions that can only be answered with experimentation.  I will say that in my experience cooking at, say, 80C for 12 hours does not give the same result as cooking at 65C for 24 hours.  Needless to say, the different times and temperatures are going to favor different reactions.

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I am reluctant to experiment for the obvious reasons of time and money, however it seems inevitable. How many 12-24-36-48 hour braises at how many different temperatures can I stand before i find something solid or lose my mind and become dibilitatingly discouraged?

I am going to try lamb shoulders tonight at the temps and times given in roca. I will post results tomorrow. The only variable will be that I wont be using suckling lamb.

[RAHiggins1]

These are all questions that can only be answered with experimentation.  I will say that in my experience cooking at, say, 80C for 12 hours does not give the same result as cooking at 65C for 24 hours.  Needless to say, the different times and temperatures are going to favor different reactions.

←

I am reluctant to experiment for the obvious reasons of time and money, however it seems inevitable. How many 12-24-36-48 hour braises at how many different temperatures can I stand before i find something solid or lose my mind and become dibilitatingly discouraged?

I am going to try lamb shoulders tonight at the temps and times given in roca. I will post results tomorrow. The only variable will be that I wont be using suckling lamb.

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Ok, let me make sure I understand what you are asking here. You want to sear meat and then sous vide it to a desired temp?

[cigno1]

These are all questions that can only be answered with experimentation.  I will say that in my experience cooking at, say, 80C for 12 hours does not give the same result as cooking at 65C for 24 hours.  Needless to say, the different times and temperatures are going to favor different reactions.

←

I am reluctant to experiment for the obvious reasons of time and money, however it seems inevitable. How many 12-24-36-48 hour braises at how many different temperatures can I stand before i find something solid or lose my mind and become dibilitatingly discouraged?

I am going to try lamb shoulders tonight at the temps and times given in roca. I will post results tomorrow. The only variable will be that I wont be using suckling lamb.

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Ok, let me make sure I understand what you are asking here. You want to sear meat and then sous vide it to a desired temp?

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???? That would be simple enough. How long and what temp do you need to SV it to wind up with X result is what I am asking.

[howsmatt]

I have done some experimenting. 12 hours is useless and does nothing at lower temps. I have done a few items including lamb shoulder at 135 F for 36 hours. Amazing results-can't fail as far as I'm concerned.

Matt

[cigno1]

I have done some experimenting.  12 hours is useless and does nothing at lower temps.  I have done a few items including lamb shoulder at 135 F for 36 hours. Amazing results-can't fail as far as I'm concerned.

Matt

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I did lamb shoulders and shanks 2lbs and .6lbs respectively for 24 hours at 63 C 145 f for 24 hours yesterday and the results were disappointing.

Color was good, rosy pink all the way through, and the flavor was good, but the texture was not exactly what I was looking for.

The connective tissues were still very much intact and not pleasant to chew. It had a bouncy texture overall. Removing the bones could'nt be done without a knife, as opposed to traditional braises where the meat "falls" off.

[Qwerty]

I think if you wan't "fall of the bone" tender you have to do a traditional braise. The point of doing sous vide braises is to break down the connective tissue to make the product tender (but not falling apart) and still maintain doneness to a rare-medium state.

I mean, short ribs done sous vide don't fall of the bone. But they are still very tender.

Something like a shank might also need more than 24 hours at that temp however...that may improve things.

[slkinsey]

Qwerty makes a good point: It doesn't make sense to cook something sous vide aiming for a result that can be obtained using a traditional technique. It is possible to get "falling apart" meat using sous vide techniques, but it's certainly going to take longer than 24 hours at 63C -- especially for something like lamb shanks.

[cigno1]

hey all,

I have a party tomorrow with a stuffed veal loin (stuffed with a basic veal meatball mixture) and was thinking of SVing it. Any recommendations for temp and time would be greatly appreciated.

TIA,

Chris

[KennethT]

hey all,

I have a party tomorrow with a stuffed veal loin (stuffed with a basic veal meatball mixture) and was thinking of SVing it. Any recommendations for temp and time would be greatly appreciated.

TIA,

Chris

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Time is mostly dependent on thickness of the package... if you look in the first 10 pages or so of the main Sous Vide page, there is a chart that correlates time to thickness. Also, you can see Douglas Baldwin's website for that info also... you can find his site with a google search for his name and sous vide. Just make sure the package isn't thicker than 4 inches - because it takes so long for the inside to come up to temperature that it wouldn't be safe.

Personally, I like veal loin on the medium rare side - so I would SV it at like 128F to 130F... or so... but if you have eggs in your meatball mixture, you may want to cook it at 131F for at least 89 minutes after the time it reaches full temp in the center so that you get rid of any salmonella/listeria that may be lurking around...

[Heartsurgeon]

i've done short ribs and lamb ribs for 24 and 36 hours at 131 degrees. i liked the longer time better.

it fully liquify the tendonous insertions in bone/muscle, i believe you will need a higher temp. I've done turkey legs and duck legs at 180 degrees, for 6-12 hours (depending on the size of the leg), with incredible results (when you grab the bone, it comes out totally clean). I've done lamb shanks with good result as well.

i believe you need temps greater than 160 to melt down the major collagenous tissues your talking about.

[paulraphael]

i believe you need temps greater than 160 to melt down the major collagenous tissues your talking about.

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Collagen breaks down at temperatures above 140F or so. But at temperatures this low it takes a very long time. I have minimal sous vide experience; doing conventional braises, a melting texture can take 12 hours or more even at 180F.

I believe there are advantages to lower temps and longer times; particularly if you can bring the meat to temperature slowly. Time spent below 120F increases enzyme activity and aging effects. It can also give the beautiful effects of meat that's bright pink in the middle in spite of being well done.

[Qwerty]

I think that collagen starts breaking down at a much lower temp than 140...I want to say like 120-125, but my McGee book is in storage.

In fact, if it didn't break down until 140 then there would be no such think as a medium rare short rib sous vide.

[DouglasBaldwin]

In a sense, you are both correct. At lower temperatures (131--135F/55--57C), the enzyme collagenase is able to break down collagen into gelatin. Collagen which is not broken down my enzymatic actions will dissolve into gelatin around 144--145F/62--63C. To quote my guide:

Above the shrinking temperature of collagen, it loses its structure, is soluble in water, and is called gelatin. While the peak temperature of denaturation of intact collagen is 144–145°F (62–63°C) [in fish, the shrinking temperature is 113°F/45°C], enzymatic denaturation by collagenase peaks at 131–135°F (55–57°C) (Beltran et al., 1991).

[paulraphael]

How much time do you find it takes to get tender (but not falling apart) short ribs if you're cooking in the 135 degree range?

[AVFOOL]

I had not SV lamb shoulder but did a lot of pork shoulder at 82.2 C for 8 hrs. and they are "falling off the bone tender". You can try lamb shoulder at that temp and time to see if it is the result that you are looking for.

[Werdna]

How much time do you find it takes to get tender (but not falling apart) short ribs if you're cooking in the 135 degree range?

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131-133 range, 12 hours not long enough, 24 hours pretty good, 36 hours was my favorite. Have not gone 48 hours yet with anything. Thats without jacarrding.

[Okanagancook]

I have two lovely lamb shanks that I want to sous vide but haven't been able to find a time/temp recommendation for shanks. I'm thinking 134 degrees F for 36 hours. Anyone tried shanks?

[Heartsurgeon]

you need to break down the collage in the shanks, that requires higher temp than what you've listed (at least 160F i believe) i have done shanks at 180F for 8 hours (used a stick of butter as the fat). I approached it like a duck confit..you want all that collagen to break down. Be sure to rest the meat in the bag to allow the meat to retain/absorb fluid, prior to serving. the meat fill fall off the bone when you try to pick it up.

[bhsimon]

I've done lamb shanks for 5 hours @ 87°C / 188°F and it had a very similar texture to a traditional braise.

 

The benefit is that the size of the shank didn't matter so much and they stayed in shape so that they were easy to remove the outside fat and silverskin for a nicer presentation.

 

I'm curious about the differences of times and temperatures above 80°C / 176°F? For example, does 10 hours @ 82°C give the same result as 5 hours @ 87°C? I'll have to try it. 

[Okanagancook]

Finally cooked lamb shanks.

I did one at 158F for 24 hours.  First picture.  They were pink but a little dry and the meat was a little 'tacky'...like over done fish.  Not what I wanted

Next I did one like we do our beef shanks at 144F for 48 hours.  Second Picture.  They were just about right.  Still juicy with good texture and the collagen was broken down.   

These shanks are from our free range - grass fed rancher north of us and the butcher they use cuts the shanks in three almost all the way through.  This makes for a lousy presentation because they all fall apart....that's the disappoint part.  Otherwise the meat is lovely.

[Duvel]

4 hours ago, Okanagancook said:

Finally cooked lamb shanks.

I did one at 158F for 24 hours.  First picture.  They were pink but a little dry and the meat was a little 'tacky'...like over done fish.  Not what I wanted

Next I did one like we do our beef shanks at 144F for 48 hours.  Second Picture.  They were just about right.  Still juicy with good texture and the collagen was broken down.   

These shanks are from our free range - grass fed rancher north of us and the butcher they use cuts the shanks in three almost all the way through.  This makes for a lousy presentation because they all fall apart....that's the disappoint part.  Otherwise the meat is lovely.

 

 

They look nice ! Did you presalt/salt them ? If so, did you you get those "gammon'-type texture and taste-effect ?