Browning Onions Takes Forever

[deltadoc]

deltadoc, I don't quite understand your post.  Are you saying that you had your mirepoix on the heat for 5 hours and it hadn't browned?  What were you heating it with, a candle?

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I think it said in my post that the mirepoix was at 400F. It was in the roasting pan in the oven at 400F just like the bones before it were browning in.

doc

[Qwerty]

You might have overcrowded the roasting pan with vegetables, and their recipes were probably written with commercial convection ovens in mind as well.

There is no reason it should have taken that long however.

[slkinsey]

Yea, it definitely shouldn't have taken that long. How deep was the vegetable mixture?

[LindaK]

[From What Einstein Told His Cook: Kitchen Science Explained by Robert L. Wolke:

. . . when small amounts of sugars or starches (which, remember, are made up of sugar units) are heated in the presence of proteins or amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) a different set of high-temperature chemical reactions takes place:  the Maillard reactions . . .

. . . Maillard reactions are responsible for the good flavor of heat-browned, carbohydrate- and protein-containing foods such as grilled and roasted meats (yes, there are sugars in meats), bread crusts and onions.  "Caramelized" onions do indeed taste sweet, because in addition to Maillard reactions. ,heating makes their starch break down into free sugars, which can then truly caramelize.

He offers more in What Einstein Told His Cook 2: The Sequel: Further Adventures in Kitchen Science:

. . . Both a sugar molecule's carbonyl group and a protein molecule's amino group must be present if Maillard browning, also known as sugar-amine browning, is to take place.  Heat accellerates the Maillard browning reactions, but they can take place at temperatures as low as 122F (50C). . .

. . . In contraindication, the browning of pure sugar or other carbohydrates at temperatures higher than about 250F (120C) -- in the absence of an amino acid of other nitrogen-containing compound -- takes place by a completely different set f complex chemical reactions called caramelization.  Many chefs seem to love the word caramelize, and use it indiscriminately to describe any food that turns brown upon being coked. But meat, poultry, fish, vegetables, and other protein-containing foods to not caramelize.  They simply brown.

Dried, raw onions are made up of about 37 percent sugars and 8 percent proteins, so they predominately brown by the Maillard, or sugar-amine, reactions. . .

. . . If we cook the onions uncovered, the released cel juices will quickly boil off and the temperature will rise from around 212F (100C) to perhaps 300F (149C) where the Maillard browning reactions proceed rapidly.  The fact that some of the Maillard reactions are sweet is perhaps one reason why cooks are enticed into using the sugar word caramelize for this process.  What they really mean, however, is taking the onions to a soft, golden tan -- the color of caramel candies -- but stopping short of actually browning them. . .

. . . If we continue cooking beyond that sage, Monsieur Maillard really goes to town and we wind up with honest-to-goodness fried onions with their intense "browned" flavors.

. . . By simply reading the recipe and using logic it shouldn't work; the onions don't get up to a caramelization temp. in a slow cooker. And leaving the lid on doesn't allow a great deal of moisture to evaporate. BUT IT WORKS!

This is the Maillard reaction working at a temperature where it is clear that caramelization can't happen. Perfect example.

It's still not clear to me how to translate all this info into instructions for consistantly browning onions to that melting, sweet, browned stage. Based on this description, I'd assume uncovered (despite my recent failure), but the slow cooker methodology would be covered, right? Salt or no salt? Is it more about time rather than method?

I need to find these Einstein books, I've never even heard of them.

[ray goud]

[From What Einstein Told His Cook: Kitchen Science Explained by Robert L. Wolke:

. . . when small amounts of sugars or starches (which, remember, are made up of sugar units) are heated in the presence of proteins or amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) a different set of high-temperature chemical reactions takes place:  the Maillard reactions . . .

. . . Maillard reactions are responsible for the good flavor of heat-browned, carbohydrate- and protein-containing foods such as grilled and roasted meats (yes, there are sugars in meats), bread crusts and onions.  "Caramelized" onions do indeed taste sweet, because in addition to Maillard reactions. ,heating makes their starch break down into free sugars, which can then truly caramelize.

He offers more in What Einstein Told His Cook 2: The Sequel: Further Adventures in Kitchen Science:

. . . Both a sugar molecule's carbonyl group and a protein molecule's amino group must be present if Maillard browning, also known as sugar-amine browning, is to take place.  Heat accellerates the Maillard browning reactions, but they can take place at temperatures as low as 122F (50C). . .

. . . In contraindication, the browning of pure sugar or other carbohydrates at temperatures higher than about 250F (120C) -- in the absence of an amino acid of other nitrogen-containing compound -- takes place by a completely different set f complex chemical reactions called caramelization.  Many chefs seem to love the word caramelize, and use it indiscriminately to describe any food that turns brown upon being coked. But meat, poultry, fish, vegetables, and other protein-containing foods to not caramelize.  They simply brown.

Dried, raw onions are made up of about 37 percent sugars and 8 percent proteins, so they predominately brown by the Maillard, or sugar-amine, reactions. . .

. . . If we cook the onions uncovered, the released cel juices will quickly boil off and the temperature will rise from around 212F (100C) to perhaps 300F (149C) where the Maillard browning reactions proceed rapidly.  The fact that some of the Maillard reactions are sweet is perhaps one reason why cooks are enticed into using the sugar word caramelize for this process.  What they really mean, however, is taking the onions to a soft, golden tan -- the color of caramel candies -- but stopping short of actually browning them. . .

. . . If we continue cooking beyond that sage, Monsieur Maillard really goes to town and we wind up with honest-to-goodness fried onions with their intense "browned" flavors.

. . . By simply reading the recipe and using logic it shouldn't work; the onions don't get up to a caramelization temp. in a slow cooker. And leaving the lid on doesn't allow a great deal of moisture to evaporate. BUT IT WORKS!

This is the Maillard reaction working at a temperature where it is clear that caramelization can't happen. Perfect example.

It's still not clear to me how to translate all this info into instructions for consistantly browning onions to that melting, sweet, browned stage. Based on this description, I'd assume uncovered (despite my recent failure), but the slow cooker methodology would be covered, right? Salt or no salt? Is it more about time rather than method?

I need to find these Einstein books, I've never even heard of them.

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Slow cooker method is covered. No added salt. As I said, it is counter-intuitive, BUT IT WORKS!

Ray

[deltadoc]

You might have overcrowded the roasting pan with vegetables, and their recipes were probably written with commercial convection ovens in mind as well.

There is no reason it should have taken that long however.

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There picture of a roasting pan looks exactly like my All Clad roasting pan. Their instructions stated to roast the mirepoix in some of the fat from browning the bones.

I used Wayne Gisslen's roasting temperature of 400F, while the CIA recommends 425-450.

I was making enough for 44 lbs of bones, while Gisslen's method calls for 10-12 lbs of bones, and the CIA method calls for 6-8 lbs of bones.

So I had 2 kg of finely diced onion, 1 kg of finely diced celery, and 1 kg of finely diced carrot. Stirring every 30 minutes, it took over 5 hours at 400 F in a Thermalgard new oven in Roast mode (top and bottom burner going).

Anyway my point was that onions do take a long time to brown!

I'm now turning 6 quarts of veal stock into 4 qts. of Espagnole sauce. This called for 500 g of diced onion and 250 g each of carrot and celery. On the cooktop, the browning went much faster. Obviously a smaller amount of mirepoix, and using only 250 g of tomato puree, and a sachet of only parsley stems, thyme and 1/2 bay leaf. And now I've added 4 qts more of veal stock to the 4 qts of Espagnole sauce reducing it into 3.6 qts of demi-glace per Escoffier.

doc

[emilyr]

Wow. What a bunch a bunch of responses. The best advice I can give is one I have given before: consult Lora Brody's wonderful book "Slow Cooker Cooking" and use her recipe for onions in the slow cooker. One uses five or six pounds (!) of onions and a whole stick of butter and fourteen hours later you have a perfect batch of browned, tasty onions you can freeze and save for future use. By simply reading the recipe and using logic it shouldn't work; the onions don't get up to a caramelization temp. in a slow cooker. And leaving the lid on doesn't allow a great deal of moisture to evaporate. BUT IT WORKS! I am a total convert and use this recipe for all my caramelized onions, and I can do enough and stash away for pizzas, foccacias, etc.

Ray

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I put this in the "absurdly simple questions" thread a few days ago.

Last weekend I tried to make a batch of slow-cooker caramelized onions. I looked up a ton of recipes that made it seem like the easiest thing possible, and was excited to have some around to boost other recipes.

On Friday around noon I sliced 3 punds of yellow onions, tossed them with olive oil and a little salt and put them in the slow-cooker on low. They were still pale and wimpy when I went to bed at 9 that night, so I left them on overnight. Saturday when I left the house at 5 am, they were just barely brown - more beige - and wet, so I boosted the heat to high. I had asked family members to turn them off, but no one did, so when I got home a little before 11 that night, they were still on. Darker, but not really caramelized and water-logged. Unwilling to spend any more electricity on them, I called it quits.

I've used them a couple of times since, and they're fine. Still kind of onion-y (you know what I mean? they still have a bit of bite) and not caramel-y, not very sweet. I also have to give them some time sauteeing to make them the right consistency. Should I leave out the salt next time? Maybe add a sprinkle of sugar? Set it on high from the get-go?

I"ll probably leave the salt out next time and just plan on finishing them in a skillet later. I'm using them, but not nearly as quickly as I'd planned.

[thayes1c]

A pinch of baking soda really helps them brown faster. This video from Khymos blew my mind when I first saw it:

http://blog.khymos.org/2008/09/26/speeding...llard-reaction/

[ray goud]

I put this in the "absurdly simple questions" thread a few days ago.

Last weekend I tried to make a batch of slow-cooker caramelized onions. I looked up a ton of recipes that made it seem like the easiest thing possible, and was excited to have some around to boost other recipes.

On Friday around noon I sliced 3 punds of yellow onions, tossed them with olive oil and a little salt and put them in the slow-cooker on low. They were still pale and wimpy when I went to bed at 9 that night, so I left them on overnight. Saturday when I left the house at 5 am, they were just barely brown - more beige - and wet, so I boosted the heat to high. I had asked family members to turn them off, but no one did, so when I got home a little before 11 that night, they were still on. Darker, but not really caramelized and water-logged. Unwilling to spend any more electricity on them, I called it quits.

I've used them a couple of times since, and they're fine. Still kind of onion-y (you know what I mean? they still have a bit of bite) and not caramel-y, not very sweet. I also have to give them some time sauteeing to make them the right consistency. Should I leave out the salt next time? Maybe add a sprinkle of sugar? Set it on high from the get-go?

I"ll probably leave the salt out next time and just plan on finishing them in a skillet later. I'm using them, but not nearly as quickly as I'd planned.

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Ray's reply:

I know that some slow cookers work differently than others; mine seems to cook somewhat faster than most. At any rate, each batch of my slow cooker onions (at least six batches so far, using standard yellow onions) has begun to brown at the half-way stage. When done at fourteen hours they are perfect, sweet, deeply rich tasting but not burnt in any way. As a result of those successes I got a small 1 1/2 quart cooker to roast garlic; if anything they come out better than the onions! For both types of dish the ornery part is peeling and slicing the onions or crushing and peelking the garlic. But it's really worth it! They both transform mashed potatoes into something heavenly.

Ray

[Bernie]

There is also another "anomaly" with onions in most recipes. When it says fry/cook/sweat onions in oil/butter/fat for 5 minutes till they are translucent...

 

Well you can do it on high heat and turn them brown, you can turn them into charcoal in no time at all but at lower heat (say frying butter etc) it will take 20~25 minutes.

There has been various discussions online over the years and the consensus seems to be that if you put 20~25 minutes in a recipe, no one will cook it because it takes too long just for that first step and it probably double the overall cooking time.

 

So many recipes with onions probably taste different because people don't fry the onions long enough, and  so the onions never break down properly. Now in something like a stew or curry that cooks for a relatively long time it doesn't matter.

 

I fact in curries you can use the onions as the basis of the sauce, provided you cook it long enough for the onions to completely break down. You get the onion flavor without adding the onion texture.

 

Another tidbit about curies, stews and such, is the boiling temperature. I actually made a quick curry last night (using green curry paste).

I firstly boiled and reduce coconut milk (which I bought cheap not realizing it was 50% water and they add thickener to pad it out. Any more than 50% water I suppose it couldn't be called coconut milk)

Then sweated onions for about 20 minutes in lard, added pork (had marinated over night in 5% brine) and curry paste. Added carrot, sweet potato and potato. Then added the coconut milk (now thicker and creamy smooth)

The boiling point was 77c-82c. I am pretty sure that would not be enough to break down the onions or cook the vegetables in reasonable time so it had to bubble away for over an hour. If I hadn't already sweated the onions for so long (and at the higher temperature) I don't think they would have broken down.

 

The texture of the sauce was smooth and creamy and the flavors were very well combined. There was no onion pieces at all so they had broken down completely   I will be reducing coconut milk from now on as a first step, at the same time as sweating down the onions for 20 mins or so.

[Katie Meadow]

12 hours ago, Bernie said:

There is also another "anomaly" with onions in most recipes. When it says fry/cook/sweat onions in oil/butter/fat for 5 minutes till they are translucent...

 

Well you can do it on high heat and turn them brown, you can turn them into charcoal in no time at all but at lower heat (say frying butter etc) it will take 20~25 minutes.

There has been various discussions online over the years and the consensus seems to be that if you put 20~25 minutes in a recipe, no one will cook it because it takes too long just for that first step and it probably double the overall cooking time.

 

So many recipes with onions probably taste different because people don't fry the onions long enough, and  so the onions never break down properly. Now in something like a stew or curry that cooks for a relatively long time it doesn't matter.

 

I fact in curries you can use the onions as the basis of the sauce, provided you cook it long enough for the onions to completely break down. You get the onion flavor without adding the onion texture.

 

Another tidbit about curies, stews and such, is the boiling temperature. I actually made a quick curry last night (using green curry paste).

I firstly boiled and reduce coconut milk (which I bought cheap not realizing it was 50% water and they add thickener to pad it out. Any more than 50% water I suppose it couldn't be called coconut milk)

Then sweated onions for about 20 minutes in lard, added pork (had marinated over night in 5% brine) and curry paste. Added carrot, sweet potato and potato. Then added the coconut milk (now thicker and creamy smooth)

The boiling point was 77c-82c. I am pretty sure that would not be enough to break down the onions or cook the vegetables in reasonable time so it had to bubble away for over an hour. If I hadn't already sweated the onions for so long (and at the higher temperature) I don't think they would have broken down.

 

The texture of the sauce was smooth and creamy and the flavors were very well combined. There was no onion pieces at all so they had broken down completely   I will be reducing coconut milk from now on as a first step, at the same time as sweating down the onions for 20 mins or so.

In my experience, browning, sweating and caramelizing all require different times. Sweating I think simply means cooking on very low heat until they are very soft without letting them get any color. Caramelization can take up to a half hour on low heat, but the goal is to make them sweet and they will definitely get golden-brown. "Browning" takes the least time of the three and doesn't need to be done on super-low heat. Just my three cents about onions. 

[gfweb]

17 minutes ago, Katie Meadow said:

In my experience, browning, sweating and caramelizing all require different times. Sweating I think simply means cooking on very low heat until they are very soft without letting them get any color. Caramelization can take up to a half hour on low heat, but the goal is to make them sweet and they will definitely get golden-brown. "Browning" takes the least time of the three and doesn't need to be done on super-low heat. Just my three cents about onions. 

 

I'd say translucent is the stage before browning.