Babbo (First 6 Years)

[g.johnson]

I understand that all the tables in the bar area are left open for walk-ins. The three times we’ve been we’ve had no trouble getting one of those by turning up before 6.

[Bux]

I have one question and a suggestion. Did they get a reservation for a better time? My guess would be that they might have if the restaurant was saving a table for a last minute vip. Many restaurants do that. My suggestion is for anyone holding a late reservation is similar to the one I'd give someone without a reservation--call that afternoon and ask if they've had cancellations and if a better slot is open.

[bpearis]

The one time I called day-of and got a 6pm reservation, we were seated upstairs, which always seems preferable to downstairs. I've always had much better service up there.

[jaybee]

He gets on the phone and calls. They tell him that they probably have a table because they save sometables open for people who want to walk in. So basically these people who decide to call the day of get an earlier reservation then me who called a week ago. I was furious. I dont understand the philosophy behind that. Lets screw a COOK of all people especially a cook who is going to tell everyone on egullet this story and give an earlier reservation to a couple wondering around NY with a zagat. Man that chaffed my ass something awfull. Does that make sence to anyone?

We had a similar experience in Paris at L'Ami Louis. This was in its heyday when Magnon (sp?) was in the kitchen cooking over the small wood burning stove. For several years we failed to secure a table for four. Finally, in year four, we got one. Happily seated in the small, dreary place, crammed into a table for four that was good for people half our size, we discussed exactly how we were going to get the most out of this long-awaited experience.

While we sat sipping a coup de champagne, the door flung open and three "goils" walked in, saying they had been looking for a place to eat and thought this looked good. Presto, a table was set for them! We asked if they had called for a table. No. They's never heard of L'Ami Louis. They had no idea where they were or what anyone would want to eat there. These were walk-ins in every sense of the word.

We thought ruefully of all those years when "NO" was the answer to our calls, faxes and letters. All we needed was to be ignorant, giggling American girls from the fashion show and the place was ours. Go figure.

The food, by the way, was spectacular. But that's another thread for the French board.

[chopjwu12]

yeah maybe they sat at the bar or something. i guess it would have been nice to call during the day sunday and asked but still it sounded wierd to me is all.

Thanks for moving the thread by the way. I did a search for the babbo thtread and for some reason couldn't find it. So thanks to whoever did the job for me.

[Steve Plotnicki]

We worked off a gift certificate given to Mrs P. by a client at a 5:30 table for two at Babbo this evening. I am so unimpressed. I feel like I could yawn for a month of Sundays. My Brasato was okay, but sooooo nothing special. And Mrs. P. after eating the Mint Love Letters (about which she commented while shrugging her shoulders, "tomato sauce, without really enough kick to it") and having Stuffed Pork Loin, gave the restaurant a resounding there is no reason to come back here again rating. Which is as good as the kiss of death in my book. In fact I hesitate to say this because I do not want to cause a riot amongst its fans but, the simple Bistecca Fiorentina I ate at Tuscan Steak in South Beach last Saturday evening was far better then anything we ate tonight (the 1998 Siepi we drank with it wasn't half bad either.) And I am certain that if the people who rave about Babbo were served that steak with their eyes closed, and were told it was prepared bu the great Molto himself, they would pee in their pants like they do for his lamb chops scotta ditta.

But the night was saved by a bottle of 1982 Gaja Barbaresco Costa Russi. I figured since this meal was being subsidized, I would spring for an important bottle that I never drank before. Very, very good bottle that was a few mmmm's short of a great one. Didn't have the class of the Sori Tilden. But it opened up during dinner to show a pretty powerful, if slightly alcoholic bottle of wine.

[rozrapp]

And Mrs. P. after eating the Mint Love Letters (about which she commented while shrugging her shoulders, "tomato sauce, without really enough kick to it") and having Stuffed Pork Loin, gave the restaurant a resounding there is no reason to come back here again rating. Which is as good as the kiss of death in my book.

Add it to her "kiss of death" for Otto:

Well I can sum up Mrs. P's reaction (it was her first time which is why we went) by three of her comments;

1) There is nothing to eat here

2) What there is to eat I can buy in the deli in 5 minutes

3) There's no reason to come back here

Mrs. P has spoken.

Steve, So that leaves Batali's Lupa and Esca. Does she like either of those? (Please note that the only Batali restaurant I've been to is Esca.)

[tommy]

i'll not be in south beach :yawn: any time soon, but i'll be at babbo this week. i'm looking foward to returning. it has been over a year.

[Fat Guy]

I am certain that if the people who rave about Babbo were served that steak with their eyes closed, and were told it was prepared bu the great Molto himself, they would pee in their pants like they do for his lamb chops scotta ditta.

Unfortunately, the market has proven you wrong. Babbo is a tremendously successful restaurant, and is particularly beloved by expert critics and jet-setting diners. That's why you could only get a 5:30 reservation at Babbo even though you could have gotten into just about any Michelin three-star restaurant in France on a same-day basis. Therefore Babbo is good, and I will be spared the humiliation of yet again peeing in my pants when served lamb chops.

[Steve Plotnicki]

You need to restrain yourself.

Actually, we requested a 5:30 reservation because Mrs. P wanted to watch the Acadamy Awards. And indeed we were out of there by 6:45. So you're out of luck on that one. Otherwise, I wonder how popular Babbo would be if they were charging $200-$300 a person for food before wine, tax and tip, just like a 3 star restaurant? Probably not very. That's because people would conclude the food isn't worth it which is the real issue. But at it's pricepoint, which is what, about a $90 check, yes it is very popular.

But those were good tries Fat Guy. Keep up the good work. And while you're at it, why don't you explain to everyone why when you want to go out for a special occassion, you go to Ducasse and spend at least twice the money, if not three times, you would spend elsewhere. How come you don't you go to Babbo or an equivalent instead?

Roz - She hasn't been to either. But I like Lupa the best of all of the restaurants and I'm sure she would as well. But to take it a step further, she actually said at this dinner that not only was this food sort of mediocre, most places are mediocre. I have to agree with her.

It was a good evening for her pronouncements. I don't know if you've been keeping up with that crazy spice thread but, I was explaining the conversation to her and when I got to the part when I told her I was asking about a Indian version of haute cuisine, she cut me off in the middle of my sentance and said, "I'd like to try something like that." I guess that's why we're married .

Edited March 24, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[Suzanne F]

You need to restrain yourself.

Physician, heed thyself.

Well, I for one am mightily relieved that you have such compatability with the missus. How difficult it would be for you if she liked such a boring, unimpressive, underpriced place as Babbo.

But then again, if you only had a rushed hour and a quarter to eat, well, of course you couldn't appreciate anything; even I take a minimum of three hours for a really serious meal.

[Steve Plotnicki]

How difficult it would be for you if she liked such a boring, unimpressive, underpriced place as Babbo.

Well it's not boring. The menu reads interestingly enough. And it's not underpriced. It's pretty much at the right pricepoint for what it is. But it is very much unimpressive. At least as to the level of proficiency in the cooking. And it isn't like we were rushing. They were rushing because they wanted to turn the table. But actually our meal was unusually short because we didn't have any dessert. That's because as the missus said, "nothing looks good." Which was okay with me. After a week of heavy eating in Florida I could easily skip desserts for the next 6 months.

[Fat Guy]

But at it's pricepoint, which is what, about a $90 check, yes it is very popular.

But is it good? Plotnicki says no. Market says yes. Babbo is quite possibly the most popular restaurant in New York at its price point. There's only one person here who's judging it by Michelin three-star standards.

And while you're at it, why don't you explain to everyone why when you want to go out for a special occassion, you go to Ducasse and spend at least twice the money, if not three times, you would spend elsewhere.

Sure. I go there because ADNY is the best restaurant in America, and Ducasse is one of the handful of best chefs in the world. This is evidenced by the fact that ADNY is the most expensive restaurant in America, and that Ducasse's restaurants in France are at the high end of the price spectrum for Michelin three-stars. Of course, you don't acknowledge Ducasse's superiority. Market and Plotnicki disagree once again. You better get with the program.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Fat Guy - My theory is about levels of cuisines. It isn't an analysis of individual restaurants. Those are two different things. What I say is that people place a higher value on a restaurant that serves higher quality cuisine, and they are willing to show that by paying more for it. It has nothing to do with how successful a restaurant is, only what level a restaurant performs at and what type of experience they offer. Just because a restaurant offers a high cuisine doesn't mean it is any good. Take La Pyramide in Vienne these days. They offer haute cuisine. It's a poor one, but it is haute.

But let's look at some of the juicy information the market does have to offer. For example, here are a few restaurants and what Zagat lists as the price of a meal;

Alain Ducasse $193

Babbo $66

Chanterelle $87

Daniel $96

Jean-Georges $92

Il Mulino $74

La Caravelle $80

La Grenouille $87

Le Bernadin $88

Lespinasse $95

San Domenico $66

Scalini Fedeli $73

You see a pattern there Fat Guy? I sure do. The Italian restaurants are all in the $60-$70 range. The French restaurants are all between $85-$100, save for Caravelle and Ducasse. Now do you think that this list shows that people might value French cuisine differently then they value Italian cuisine?

How about if I list some Indian restaurants;

Ada $53

Chola $38

Dawat $44

Tabla $62

Tamarind $47

Tell me, that people aren't prepared to spend more than around $50 for a traditional Indian restaurant, do you think that is a meaningful piece of information?

How about Japanese;

Jewel Bako $61

Kurama Sushi $108

Nobu $74

Sugiyama $92

Sushi Yasuda $61

Do those numbers have any impact on you? And you know as well as I do, the Jewel Bako and Yasuda numbers are way low. It's really more like $100 a person when you order the tuna, salmon and hamachi tastings. Not to mention the Uni.

So I will stick to my proffer. But I make no representations that price within a category is indicative of anything. It might be and it might not be. But it is pretty much determinative between cuisines and categories. But if you really need a formula to figure out if individual restaurants perform well, well that's an easy one. It's called ASK STEVE P.. That's the quickest and most reliable way to find out.

[Fat Guy]

That was a nice piece of performance art, but I can't for the life of me see a meaningful argument in the whole post. I guess I'm just not enough of an absurdist to understand the convolutions of statements like: "But I make no representations that price within a category is indicative of anything. It might be and it might not be. But it is pretty much determinative between cuisines and categories." To me that just sounds like a very feeble and ultimately unsuccessful attempt to escape the consequences of previously stated theories. Sorry, but you're just going to have to disagree with the market on this one. Which means, of course, that you're wrong. And I'm not saying I think you're wrong. I'm just saying you think you're wrong. And the PM I have here from the market says you couldn't be more wrong, because not only are you questioning a restaurant that the market supports, but you are questioning what may be the single most popular restaurant at that price point representing any cuisine. So I will bid farewell and leave you to work out a peaceful resolution between your petty attacks against Babbo ("I am so unimpressed. I feel like I could yawn for a month of Sundays. My Brasato was okay, but sooooo nothing special.") and your worship of the market.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Performance art is what the losing side calls the unimpeachable evidence when they can't argue the facts. They make statements like,

"To me that just sounds like a very feeble and ultimately unsuccessful attempt to escape the consequences of previously stated theories"

when they can't show a single piece of evidence that it is in contradiction to anything previously stated. Do you have any?

Or they call the position absurd when the data pretty much shows that people spend around the following on meals;

French - $90

Japanese - $80

Italian -$70

Indian - $50

And not only doesn't that look absurd, it seems pretty clear to me how people value things. Calling the numbers, or me absurd, just won't make facts that are sticking to your shoe like you know what, go away.

Otherwise my review of Babbo is not all that different from the other times I have eaten there. Which in the past you have pretty much been in agreement with. So there isn't much to say about that one either. But if you believe that my review is somehow inconsistant with past theories about dining there, or anywhere else, or is inconsistant with my general view about life, art, religion or politics, feel free to quiz me. But only against the actual details of what I have said. I do not intend to respond to arguments that are based on;

"To me that just sounds like.

"Sounds like" is what it sounds like, an attempt to draw an inference that I have contradicted previous statements. You haven't offered any evidence that I have. It can't "sound like" I have, I either have or or haven't. Without you offering any contradictory statements, the inferences run in my direction, not yours. But that was a nice try.

[Jinmyo]

Steves frolicing in the early morning.

[Ron Johnson]

Babbo $66

I must've ordered wrong because my last dinner at Babbo was almost $400 for two.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Yes but what wine did you drink? My bill with the Costa Russi was a bit more then $66 as well.

[Craig Camp]

Steve -

Today you wrote:

We worked off a gift certificate given to Mrs P. by a client at a 5:30 table for two at Babbo this evening. I am so unimpressed. I feel like I could yawn for a month of Sundays. My Brasato was okay, but sooooo nothing special. And Mrs. P. after eating the Mint Love Letters (about which she commented while shrugging her shoulders, "tomato sauce, without really enough kick to it") and having Stuffed Pork Loin, gave the restaurant a resounding there is no reason to come back here again rating. Which is as good as the kiss of death in my book.

On March 21st :

Even at America's greatest Italian restaurant, Babbo, the most famous dish is the Mint Love Letters, and the most famous meal is the pasta tasting menu. Not even Molto himself could figure out how to make the non-starches be the star of the show.

Which is it?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Craig - I'm not sure what you are asking? Is it about the pasta or the greatest restaurant part?

[tommy]

i think craig missed your sarcasm.

[Craig Camp]

Craig - I'm not sure what you are asking? Is it about the pasta or the greatest restaurant part?

The greatest restaurant part. I wanted to ask you about that since I saw the comment on the pasta thread I was surprised to see your less than enthusiastic comments after seeing your other remark.

[Wilfrid]

At least we are reminded not to trust Zagat. Some of those estimates strike me as very low.

Which is not to point out a flaw in Steve's argument. I'll do that now. As on the spice thread, he is not comparing like with like. Why does dinner cost half as much at Chola or Dawat than it does at Daniel or Jean-Georges? Because the former two restaurants do not even think of striving to provide a four star dining experience. That is not their proffer. Now, if Steve were to list - as he should - the French restaurants which offer the same level of dining experience as Chola and Dawat (Capsouto Freres, or Rene Pujol, say) he'd find the prices comparable. But he doesn't; he lists four star French restaurants, then pads the list out with midtown dinosaurs which cater to a moneyed crowd who still miss Le Pavillon. In fact, New York diners will pay similar prices for comparable levels of French and Indian cuisine. Similarly, restaurants like San Domenico and Il Mulino are comfortably as expensive as truly comparable French restaurants - Montrachet, JoJo, L'Absinthe, etc.

Just to make the invalidity of his argument absolutely clear, consider the following: it costs more to purchase a suit from Versace than it does to purchase a suit from Gap; therefore, people are prepared to pay more for Italian clothes than for American clothes. Simply an invalid inference.

Just to help matters along - although this is the wrong thread - the question Steve should be asking is why there don't happen to be more expensive Indian restaurants in New York. I have answers, if anyone cares to pose the question in an appropriate spot.

Edited March 24, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Try this one on;

Even at what is considered America's greatest Italian restaurant.....

We need to give you a lesson on eGullet inferences. But even after that review, I would agree with that statement based on how the menu reads. Take the mint love letters. That dish is concieved well. Molto has figured out a clever way to serve a lamb, tomato, mint combo. It's very much Sicilian/North African and I personally like that kind of thing. But what they served Mrs. P. was oversauced, not the right temperature, the sauce was somewhat lackluster, there wasn't enough bite to the fillings in the ravioli, etc. So the issue isn't the concept, it's the execution.

Personally, I think that sauce would be good over fish. In todays trendy food times, mixing meat and fish is popular and many chefs do a good job of working it out well. When I was at Norman's in Coral Gables last week (spectacular meal,) I had Chilean Seabass over melted Pork Belly and Mrs. P had Diver Scallops over BBQ'd Oxtail and they were both sensational. Mario would do well putting that sauce on a white fish with firm but flaky flesh that could stand up to it. But that's just my .02.

I'm surprised you didn't ask about the Costa Russi. The wine was pretty rustic for Gaja, although not as much as a Giacosa would be.