Chinese restaurants outside of China

[ellencho]

I'm not Chinese myself, but regardless of what type of food a restaurant serves, I will tip well for good service. Even if the workers pool the tips and then divide them evenly, wouldn't you still rather reward them that little extra bit of money for good service instead of making their overall earnings that they take home lower?

[savvysearch]

At Vietnamese/Chinese restaurants, my dad always asks the waiter whether or not the tips go the the staff or the owner. If it goes to the owner, which is usually the case, he just puts 1 or 2 dollars on the table because you are just filling the owner's pockets.

Edited August 14, 2005 by savvysearch (log)

[Yuki]

I know that most of my relatives are not used to tipping in Hong Kong but they try to tip 15% at restaurant in Canada. In Hong Kong, most restaurants do not expect tips but some nicer restaurants do charge a 10% service charge. I don't think that Hong Kong waiter or waitress is doing a bad job but maybe this is just because I am used to the Chinese standard of service. We usually don't like people coming around the table asking as about the quality of food and service, and certainly don't want to know about the waitstaff unless we are regular customers.

Although tips might be pooled but it is also common for Chinese customers to secretly put money into their favourite waitstaff's pocket. Wait staff would also have their yearly bonus(well, you have to be good to get it) through new year money from the customers. I know that some popular waiters/waitresses can earn 1-3 months of salary from new year pocket money.

[doctorandchef]

I think for those who grew up in HK a 10% tip is customary as they add this to as a service charge, hence it was ingrained in many of us that a 10% tip is "standard" in a Chinese restaurant. The custom in HK is just to round up oh so slightly.... i.e. $192 you leave the $8 worth of coins behind on the tray. BTW, waiters in HK stand there and wait for you to collect your change, they don't just leave it discretely on your table.

Having said that, after moving to North America, I've noticed HK people tipping more than 10% only at restaurants where they are regulars and get "special treatment" i.e. expedited waiting times for a table, free tea etc. (Haha, I'm reminded of that Seinfeld Chinese restaurant episode......) This, of course, pertains only to my circle of social interactions, hence may or may not be representative of the entire chinese population. But I think many would agree this is the case.

I used to tip 10% only as well, and did not feel that I was cheap, until I read that gwellos consider 15% as a cheap tip, and 20% is standard.

Now I tip according to the situation, 10-15% standard in a chinese restaurant, 10% if I get below average service, a little more if service is good. For western restaurants, I go by gwello's standards.

Knowing several people in the chinese restaurant industry, I have come to the conclusion that many of the waiters expect gwellos to be a lot more generous than chinese people, but they don't really hold anything against the stingy chinese tippers unless its below 10%. I've read on some boards that gwello waiters get really mad if they get only 10%, as if someone had jilted them.

btw, I'm chinese.

[mamacat]

At Vietnamese/Chinese restaurants, my dad always asks the waiter whether or not the tips go the the staff or the owner. If it goes to the owner, which is usually the case, he just puts 1 or 2 dollars on the table because you are just filling the owner's pockets.

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Seems to me to be a sensible approach.

[Chris Amirault]

Well, except if it's our favorite Chinese restaurant, at which the owners, waitstaff, chefs, and cleaning crew are all part of the same extended family. In that case, why not tip 20% and contribute to the entire enterprise, with the hope and/or understanding that it goes to the entire clan?

[hzrt8w]

I think for those who grew up in HK a 10% tip is customary as they add this to as a service charge, hence it was ingrained in many of us that a 10% tip is "standard" in a Chinese restaurant.  The custom in HK is just to round up oh so slightly.... i.e. $192 you leave the $8 worth of coins behind on the tray.  BTW, waiters in HK stand there and wait for you to collect your change, they don't just leave it discretely on your table.

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Sorry I came to this little digression topic late. I just read it.

I agree that most eateries in Hong Kong charges an automatic 10% gratuity. And this practice, I think, is following the Brits (most likely) or Europeans in general. In Mainland China it's a different story.

I used to work as a waiter 20+ years ago in about 10 different Chinese restaurants in San Diego, CA. Of all restaurants that I worked at, never one would the tip go to the owner. Sometimes you may see as if the tip tray goes to the owner's counter in the front. But usually it goes into a jar, which shortly before the restaurant closes, would be tallied up.

There were 2 schools of systems: the communists (tips divided equally among all) and the capitalists (tips kept by individual waiters, not shared). It's up to the restaurant owner which system to adopt. There are avantages and disadvantages of each. The bigger the restaurant, the more likely that they are dividing the tips because it's virtually impossible for one person to wait on several tables and maintain the level of service required. Remember in Chinese restaurants the owners demand the waiter to bring the food, once cooked, immediately from the kitchen to the table - unlike those American restaurants where they leave the food under the flood light to keep warm and wait for every dish at the same table to be ready before bringing them out at once.

In a more sophiscated (large) Chinese restaurants where there are higher/lower ranking staff above/below waiters, i.e. captains and managers; bus boys and ladies whose sole job it is to bring cooked dishes from the kitchen to the table, they divide up the tips according to job grades. It goes something like: waiters get 1 share, bus boys get 1/2 share, dish ladies get 1/4 share (maybe), captains get 1 1/2 shares (or more) and managers get 2 shares (or more).

Many Chinese waiters do depend on the tips as a good part of their income. Why? Because the owners almost never pay them even minimum wage. The owners have already factored in the tips as a compensation! In some really busy eateries, the waiters may even forgo the wage all together for the chance of working for tips alone.

[pennbrew]

OK, I'll admit that where I live (just south of Wilkes-Barre PA) is not a foodie hotbed.

A brand-new Chinese restaurant just opened at the end of my street. Actually it was previously a Chinese restaurant (Peking Chef), but it's under new ownership and has undergone a complete makeover. We have another Chinese restaurant in town (China II), which is OK for a standard American-style Chinese joint. You know, with the illuminated photos hanging above the counter of dishes that clearly were made elsewhere (with names and prices not found on the menu), with half the backlighting burned out.

This new place looked like it would be different. The new name looks exotic. I can't remember it now but it's not "Happy Lucky" or "China Delight" or some such. And the grafitti-covered vans that have been parked there during the renovation are clearly from New York. So my expectations were up, my imagination ran wild. Maybe shades of Grand Sichuan??? One can hope.

I just carried out from there. First of all the menu was a clear disappointment. It's all chicken and broccoli, Happy Family, etc. I swear all Chinese restaurants must get their menus from the same print shop. The only thing that caught my eye was called simply "Beef and Shrimp Hunan Style", but the description promised shrimp and Chinese vegetables in a chili sauce; and thin, crisp strips of beef in a sesame sauce. It also indicated "spicy", so I asked for extra spicy.

The "Chinese vegetables" turned out to be broccoli and bell peppers. Maybe a canned baby corn or 2. Soggy, tough beef and rubbery shrimp. Everything was in a lifeless, brown, gooey sauce. Not a hint of spice (where's the chili???) or flavor other than salty, mucky blandness.

Why must it always be this way? I know those of you in New York and San Francisco can find some decent stuff, but why don't the other 152,000 Chinese restaurants in the US even try? Hell, around here even the hot dog joints try to differentiate themselves from each other.

Sorry for the rant but it's tough to have your hopes dashed so completely.

---Guy

[divalasvegas]

OK, I'll admit that where I live (just south of Wilkes-Barre PA) is not a foodie hotbed. 

A brand-new Chinese restaurant just opened at the end of my street.  Actually it was previously a Chinese restaurant (Peking Chef), but it's under new ownership and has undergone a complete makeover.  We have another Chinese restaurant in town (China II), which is OK for a standard American-style Chinese joint.  You know, with the illuminated photos hanging above the counter of dishes that clearly were made elsewhere (with names and prices not found on the menu), with half the backlighting burned out.

This new place looked like it would be different.  The new name looks exotic.  I can't remember it now but it's not "Happy Lucky" or "China Delight" or some such.  And the grafitti-covered vans that have been parked there during the renovation are clearly from New York.  So my expectations were up, my imagination ran wild.  Maybe shades of Grand Sichuan???  One can hope.

I just carried out from there.  First of all the menu was a clear disappointment.  It's all chicken and broccoli, Happy Family, etc.  I swear all Chinese restaurants must get their menus from the same print shop.  The only thing that caught my eye was called simply "Beef and Shrimp Hunan Style", but the description promised shrimp and Chinese vegetables in a chili sauce;  and thin, crisp strips of beef in a sesame sauce.  It also indicated "spicy", so I asked for extra spicy.

The "Chinese vegetables" turned out to be broccoli and bell peppers.  Maybe a canned baby corn or 2.  Soggy, tough beef and rubbery shrimp.  Everything was in a lifeless, brown, gooey sauce.  Not a hint of spice (where's the chili???) or flavor other than salty, mucky blandness.

Why must it always be this way?  I know those of you in New York and San Francisco can find some decent stuff, but why don't the other 152,000 Chinese restaurants in the US even try?  Hell, around here even the hot dog joints try to differentiate themselves from each other. 

Sorry for the rant but it's tough to have your hopes dashed so completely.

---Guy

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Thanks for starting this topic pennbrew. I've often wondered the same thing and not just about Chinese restaurants. I've noticed this cloning going on in other cuisines as well. For instance the DC area has a plethora of Ethiopian restaurants, yet I've noticed the exact same menu items offered from menu to menu which always leaves me wondering what's being held back, what assumptions are being made about which of their dishes might be unacceptable to the American palate?

I wonder if the direct approach might not be the best approach? Has anyone ever just asked a restaurant owner why this is so?

Edited April 16, 2007 by divalasvegas (log)

[divalasvegas]

Of course, since running a restaurant is a risky business with a high percentage of failure, perhaps the philosophy is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." They know for sure that people will order those same dishes over and over again so why risk being authentic and go out of business. There are very tasty local exceptions to this rule I'm happy to say.

[pennbrew]

Of course, since running a restaurant is a risky business with a high percentage of failure, perhaps the philosophy is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." They know for sure that people will order those same dishes over and over again so why risk being authentic and go out of business. There are very tasty local exceptions to this rule I'm happy to say.

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Yeah, I know, give the public what they want; you won't go broke underestimating the taste of the American public, etc.

Just give me a Ma Po Tofu and I'll be happy. There's plenty enough room on the menu.

But I'll bet you any amount that this restaurant doesn't own a single Sichuan peppercorn.

Edited April 16, 2007 by pennbrew (log)

[takadi]

There is actually a chinese restaurant in New York called Congee village. They have the most extensive list of atypical chinese food I've ever seen. It was the best chinese experience I've ever had. Their garlic chicken is literally covered in garlic cloves.

There are also a novelty item called "soup dumplings", where dumplings are filled with a very very rich broth. It is extremely fun to eat and very delicious.

As for chinese restaurants always being the same, I've known this since I was born. I've come to accept that it's how it is. It's mostly because the food most Americans are accustomed to are chinese-AMERICAN food, which is cantonese food warped to fit American tastes. I mean come on, fortune cookies? That's probably the most degrading patronizing food invention ever.

[prasantrin]

I mean come on, fortune cookies? That's probably the most degrading patronizing food invention ever.

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Why would that be?

[Marky Marc]

I mean come on, fortune cookies? That's probably the most degrading patronizing food invention ever.

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Why would that be?

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I second that. I'm actually quite fond of them.

[Timh]

I agree that the chinese restaurant formula is so prevalent because Americans know nothing about chinese food. This also applies to every other ethnic cuisine, Mexican, Italian, French, Japanese, etc...

[Fat Guy]

It applies to American cuisine too. Most diners have the same menu (with minor regional variations), etc. The reality is that in any segment of the restaurant business conformity is the rule. Very few places break away from it, in part because of the risk involved, and in part because of customer resistance, but also because there's significant effort and input required to invent rather than copy.

[Peter Green]

It applies to American cuisine too. Most diners have the same menu (with minor regional variations), etc. The reality is that in any segment of the restaurant business conformity is the rule. Very few places break away from it, in part because of the risk involved, and in part because of customer resistance, but also because there's significant effort and input required to invent rather than copy.

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Not just in diners in America, but overseas you'll find "American" restaurants that follow a very set menu of "steak" (I'm being kind), salads with iceberg lettuce, and usually nachos or some such equivalent.

However, throw in my vote on the defence of the fortune cookie! I consider them one of the highlights of my meal, especially when they get innovative with the messages. And I'm sort of fond of the taste......

[Andrew Fenton]

I find that, as often as not, it pays to know what a Chinese restaurant's specialties are. Often, hidden among the pages of beef-with-broccoli, there will be a few dishes that reflect a regional identity, or are just really good. That's certainly the case in big cities-- you don't order all menu items at all restaurants-- but it's also true in smaller ones.

One of the best Chinese meals I've had was at a restaurant in a strip mall in suburban Cincinnati. It's not a hotbed of immigration, as far as I know; but we went with a couple of Chinese friends, who knew what to order, and were able to convince the servers that yeah, we really did want to order that room-temperature tripe dish. I'm not sure it was even on the menu, but we did order it, and it was fantastic.

That's the tricky part, and it's been addressed in many threads in the past: how do you persuade the restaurant to bring out the good stuff, and not the stuff they assume you want? If you can do it, you'll have a better chance of getting a good meal.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Andrew Fenton (log)

[pennbrew]

The reality is that in any segment of the restaurant business conformity is the rule.

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I know, I was expecting too much. The place certainly looks like it has potential, the renovations they did were rather elegant.

Seeing the "same old, same old" menu was a disappointment.

And the execution is worse than the older place in town, a whole quarter-mile down the road.

So why'd they bother? That's a rhetorical question...

[markk]

And also on the "not just in America" theme:

I used to travel extensively in Italy in the 1970's. What I'd find in the major cities and tourist destinations was in fact a pre-printed menu, in 4 languages (Italian, English, French, German) on which the restaurant filled-in the prices of the dishes they offered. So you had all the categories - "antipasti", "pasta asciutto", "carne", "pesce" and then listed were all the dishes that people think of as "Italian" though not those you necessarily went to Italy to discover outside their region: prosciutto e melone, insalata caprese, lasagne bolognese, fettucine alfredo, tortellini alla panna, bistecca fiorentina, spaghetti al pesto, etc. with prices filled in for the ones they offered. Though it'd be pretty foolish to order lasagne bolognese on the Isle of Capri, etc. But this corresponds exactly to the "diner" theory put forth earlier where diners now offer every dish known to man, and yes, I think that to a large extent, what the Chinese restaurants at that level offer is what the printer has decided that Americans think of as "standardized" Chinese food.

In the case of the Italian menu, I'm sure it made life easy for as many Americans as it horrified.

[Naftal]

Every year the Chinese Resturant News publishes their list of the 100 best Chinese resturants in the U.S. They do have a nice website too.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Naftal (log)

[Fat Guy]

That's the tricky part, and it's been addressed in many threads in the past: how do you persuade the restaurant to bring out the good stuff, and not the stuff they assume you want?  If you can do it, you'll have a better chance of getting a good meal.

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Agreed, although restaurant selection is important too. Many restaurants are so soulless and generic that the only way to improve your experience is to go there a hundred times and fight a huge uphill battle to get them to make the good stuff and then serve it to you. This may be a workable strategy if you move to a bad restaurant town and it's your only option, however if you're traveling the better bet is to select places where there are at least signs of life.

[prasantrin]

I know, I was expecting too much.  The place certainly looks like it has potential, the renovations they did were rather elegant. 

Seeing the "same old, same old" menu was a disappointment.

And the execution is worse than the older place in town, a whole quarter-mile down the road.

So why'd they bother?  That's a rhetorical question...

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About non-Americanized Chinese food, have you ever thought of asking the owners/chefs of the restaurants you frequent to make you something off the menu? When my family first moved to Canada, we were one of the few brown families in Winnipeg. There was one Chinese restaurant which, understandably, had a menu for non-Asian folks. We'd go there and my dad would say, "Just serve us whatever you're having for dinner," and we'd get a good Cantonese Chinese meal.

If the owners/chefs know you're looking for something better than what they usually offer, if they're serious about their food, they're probably more than willing to oblige you.

Take note, however, not all cooks at Chinese restaurants can actually cook.

[markk]

There was one Chinese restaurant which, understandably, had a menu for non-Asian folks.  We'd go there and my dad would say, "Just serve us whatever you're having for dinner," and we'd get a good Cantonese Chinese meal.

You might be surprised to learn how that just doesn't work for non Chinese people when we ask that. I've had some favorite Chinese restaurants write down the name of some things in Chinese (like Ong Choy) so that I can show the paper when I ask for it in my travels. The answer I get is "This is a vegetable only Chinese people like - you won't like it", and it does no good to explain that the reason I carry the slip is because I do like it. And I've been to chinese restaurants when the staff has been eating and asked for what they're having and been refused it on the grounds "you won't like it".

[JasonTrue]

While certainly not Chinese, the fortune cookie wasn't originally catering to American tastes. (If they were, they would have been much sweeter anyway).

Near as anyone can tell, they evolved from Japanese sweet sembei, and most sources agree that they were invented by a Japanese American who presented them as business gifts enclosed with thank you notes. A few years later, a Chinese-American noodle company started producing them with fortunes inside and they quickly became popular.

I mean come on, fortune cookies? That's probably the most degrading patronizing food invention ever.

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