What of the Upper East Side?

[Vinotas]

I was reading the NY Times Restaurant Preview in the Dining Section this morning and couldn't help but notice that almost no new places are opening on the UES. What gives?

Whereas the UWS used to be a culinary wasteland, it's become quite the destination for new wine bars, restaurants and clubs in the past decade. Yet the UES still languishes, famished for the attention of this horde of ambitious young chefs. In general, on this side of the Park, we are relegated to either super-cheap sushi and Chinese or high-end French, American and Italian places, with almost nothing in between. Unless you consider the proliferation of drug store chains and banks a good thing...

As someone who resides on the UES, I find it frustrating that I can think of only one dependably good and well-priced steak/frites bistrot within a 10 block radius (Bandol), and only one sushi joint (Sushi Hana), with one interesting wine bar (Sake Hana). Payard has been disappointing me lately, and Atlantic Grill starts veering into high-cost territory (not to mention high attitude).

Where's our Spotted Pig? Where's our Bar Veloce or Solex (wine bars in the East Village that I feel could easily be transported to our neck of the woods)? Where's our young, ambitious chef looking for cheap rent (York and 1st Avenues can't be too expensive considering the places that survive there)?

Why is the UES, with its hungry, rather well-off crowds, so underserved in terms of interesting places to eat? Or am I out of my mind (not entirely out of the question)?

Cheers!

[Nathan]

I was reading the NY Times Restaurant Preview in the Dining Section this morning and couldn't help but notice that almost no new places are opening on the UES.  What gives?

Whereas the UWS used to be a culinary wasteland, it's become quite the destination for new wine bars, restaurants and clubs in the past decade.  Yet the UES still languishes, famished for the attention of this horde of ambitious young chefs.  In general, on this side of the Park, we are relegated to either super-cheap sushi and Chinese or high-end French, American and Italian places, with almost nothing in between.  Unless you consider the proliferation of drug store chains and banks a good thing...

As someone who resides on the UES, I find it frustrating that I can think of only one dependably good and well-priced steak/frites bistrot within a 10 block radius (Bandol), and only one sushi joint (Sushi Hana), with one interesting wine bar (Sake Hana).  Payard has been disappointing me lately, and Atlantic Grill starts veering into high-cost territory (not to mention high attitude).

Where's our Spotted Pig?  Where's our Bar Veloce or Solex (wine bars in the East Village that I feel could easily be transported to our neck of the woods)?  Where's our young, ambitious chef looking for cheap rent (York and 1st Avenues can't be too expensive considering the places that survive there)?

Why is the UES, with its hungry, rather well-off crowds, so underserved in terms of interesting places to eat?  Or am I out of my mind (not entirely out of the question)?

Cheers! 

←

although I think you strongly overrate the UWS, the answer is probably that restauranteurs, for whatever reason, don't think the interest is there to make interesting restaurants or bars feasible on the UES.

with that said, the cheaper rents uptown are certainly going to force some to try.

edit: what it comes down to is that uptowners are more than willing to come downtown to eat and drink but downtowners won't come uptown.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Nathan (log)

[weinoo]

edit: what it comes down to is that uptowners are more than willing to come downtown to eat and drink but downtowners won't come uptown.

←

I think that's the key point, certainly with the younger, "hipper" chefs. You're looking at a demographic (generally) on the UES that doesn't really like the louder, noisier, more crowded, more casual, open-later restaurants that the new dining public tends to enjoy.

The only food-reason I'll head to the upper east side for is when I want a JG Melon's hamburger.

[Vinotas]

although I think you strongly overrate the UWS, the answer is probably that restauranteurs, for whatever reason, don't think the interest is there to make interesting restaurants or bars feasible on the UES. 

with that said, the cheaper rents uptown are certainly going to force some to try.

edit: what it comes down to is that uptowners are more than willing to come downtown to eat and drink but downtowners won't come uptown.

←

I think what annoys me is that there seems to be a dearth of low-key places I can get to without taking mass transportation. In almost any other part of town, there's a reliable trattoria or bistrot within walking distance of where most people live, but on the UES the places are reliably awful or expensive or both.

I like going to wine/tapas bars, and the "wine bars" on the UES serve mass-produced plonk or worse, fruity martinis. They are fancier (and more expensive) versions of the frat-boy bars that once dominated Second Avenue.

But your statement that uptowners are willing to go downtown for a reliable meal shows that there is a demand, and if something decent were to open in the neighborhood it would get a lot of business. In addition, the area is full of thirty-somethings with kids who are still looking for that cool joint experience (thus heading downtown). That and the relatively lower rents in some parts of the UES should definitely make the area more attractive for new, more interesting restaurants, yet this hasn't happened yet.

It's not like we have a leper colony in our midst!

[Fat Guy]

Another possibility is that new restaurants open on the UES all the time, but just don't get much attention especially in preview issues of magazines like New York and Time Out that cater to a clientele that won't go above 14th Street.

For example, Naruto Ramen opened last year on Third Avenue between 90th and 91st Streets, and in general the Upper East Side has a number of restaurants catering to the Japanese expats so many of whom live up around here. If a new ramen place opens in the East Village it's immediately chronicled in media outlets far and wide, offline and on, yet you rarely if ever hear anything about Naruto Ramen.

[oakapple]

I think FG is right. New restaurants open on the UES all the time. But what the UES seldom gets are the "destination" restaurants that are mentioned in the annual fall dining previews. The UES does have a handful of destination restaurants, but they don't come along as often.

The restauranteurs who open destination restaurants (or those that aspire to that status) generally seek out neighborhoods that have already proven themselves hospitable to destination dining. Every once in a while, someone takes a chance on a hitherto unproven neighborhod, and if they're successful, a whole bunch more may follow. Once upon a time, the Lower East Side was an example of that. Then came the East Village, and so on.

I think the UES suffers from a couple of problems. It's not a particularly cheap neighborhood to go into, but the poor transit infrastructure (just one subway line) make it comparatively difficult to reach.

[Fat Guy]

There is one UES opening mentioned in the Times preview piece -- Opus, 1574 Second Avenue (82nd Street) -- though it sounds kind of awful (gluten-free pasta and pizza).

[Vinotas]

There is one UES opening mentioned in the Times preview piece -- Opus, 1574 Second Avenue (82nd Street) -- though it sounds kind of awful (gluten-free pasta and pizza).

←

Yeah, I noticed that one. While I feel bad for people with that issue, not sure it's for the rest of us who are consumate omnivores.

So, is Naruto that good? Any other recommendations?

[Fat Guy]

I'm not trying to hide the ball and will be glad to discuss UES restaurants on a topic about that (I think a few exist). The reason I mentioned Naruto is that I think it demonstrates the entrenched downtown bias in food coverage at most every level from bloggers to MSM. Naruto is okay, but that's not the point. The point is that if Naruto had opened up the block from Momofuku Noodle Bar, or on Fourth Avenue, it would have been a story. But it's totally unbuzzed, and I think location has a lot to do with it.

[weinoo]

I'm not trying to hide the ball and will be glad to discuss UES restaurants on a topic about that (I think a few exist). The reason I mentioned Naruto is that I think it demonstrates the entrenched downtown bias in food coverage at most every level from bloggers to MSM. Naruto is okay, but that's not the point. The point is that if Naruto had opened up the block from Momofuku Noodle Bar, or on Fourth Avenue, it would have been a story. But it's totally unbuzzed, and I think location has a lot to do with it.

←

Then one has to look at the "what came first" question. I think if there were great new openings on the UES to cover, they would get their due. But the fact that there are hardly any openings of note causes the "media," both print and online, to cover other neighborhoods to a greater extent.

I don't think we can jump to the conclusion that the reason, as Vinotoas says,

In almost any other part of town, there's a reliable trattoria or bistrot within walking distance of where most people live, but on the UES the places are reliably awful or expensive or both.

can be blamed on the "media," or any "entrenched downtown bias."

[Fat Guy]

But I think Vinotas's generalizations -- both about the UES and other neighborhoods -- are wrong.

[Vinotas]

But I think Vinotas's generalizations -- both about the UES and other neighborhoods -- are wrong.

←

I don't know, I am friends with folks all over the city and many (not all) seem to have several reliable little places to go to if they don't want to cook at home. Whereas on the UES if I am hard-pressed to find more than 2-3 go-to places within a 10 block radius that won't either break the bank or my palate. And certainly nothing as interesting as what's going on in other parts of the city.

[Fat Guy]

I think if you compare the UES to the very best restaurant neighborhoods in the city it comes out behind, but it's a lot better than plenty of neighborhoods. Debating the point beyond that would get into a lot of specifics, which I'm willing to do, but I think that generally it's hard to say the UES is a worse restaurant neighborhood than, say, Chelsea.

One issue that makes comparisons complex, though, is that the UES is so large. It's the largest residential neighborhood in the city pretty much any way you define it. So one person's UES is not everybody's UES, whereas everybody in the EV lives within walking distance of every restaurant in the EV as well as Alphabet City and the LES (to the extent those are even different neighborhoods). I mean this morning I walked from my apartment near the corner of 93rd & Madison (the Carnegie Hill part of the UES) over to a doctor on 70th east of York. That's a long friggin' walk -- took me about 45 minutes -- and I could have kept going and still been on the UES. Downtown I'd have traversed like six neighborhoods.

So, you know, if someone lives in the approximate area you're describing then that person isn't in any way my neighbor. If you walk out my door you're on one of the most densely packed restaurant blocks in town: Bistro du Nord, Pascalou, Vico, Island, Joanna's, Sarabeth's, Table d'Hote, Square Meal, Ciao Bella -- that's all on or near Madison from 92nd to 93rd. A one-block span. Every one of those is pretty good and if you take advantage of timing you can get some good values at some.

[pups224]

Sorry FG. I beg to differ. The food at Joanna's is inedible.

There are some good meals to be had on the UES, just not GREAT meals.

Sandro's, Spigolo, Payard (used to be good), Wu Liang Yee, Etats-Unis and the tiny Sushi place in 1st between 86th & 85th.

Perhaps there is not enough demand for excellence and UE Siders are used to having to trek elsewhere if they want their haute cuisine fix.

[Nathan]

Chelsea is no culinary mecca...but it's in walking distance of plenty of worthy places...(so, yes, the relative size of the UES is certainly a factor.)

you also have the point that there are two UES. there's the hyper-affluent but generally culinarily conservative part of west of Lexington (more or less) and the starter apartments (i.e. Murray Hill-esque) east of Lex which constitute some of the cheapest real estate below 96th street...with the concomitant frat boy row of 2nd avenue etc...

or at least that's the image downtowners have of the UES. so it would take a lot for a restauranteur to bring them up. maybe a major name with downtown cred.

[Fat Guy]

Again, the UES is huge. To look at it as a matter of community districts, compare CD8 to CD3. The UES is physically larger and has a substantially larger population than the LES, EV, Alphabet City and Chinatown combined. Well, CD8 includes Roosevelt Island but I doubt that affects anything.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/lucds/mn8profile.pdf

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/lucds/mn2profile.pdf

I think the UES has to be looked at as having many parts. There are three or four distinct north-south zones (divided by 72, maybe 79, and 86) and a pretty clear east-west division along Lex or thereabouts. Then there's Carnegie Hill, which has sort of its own personality.

If you all look through a Zagat index, just for orientation, you'll be surprised how many restaurants there are on the UES that you forgot about.

[Vinotas]

I think FG makes a good point. The UES is HUGE. Last night I did a tasting at K&D Wines on Madison and 96th St with one of my wines (very successfully so, BTW), then walked slowly with my saleswoman from there to her place on 77th and Lex. This really drove home the point about both the size and the (relative) diversity of the UES.

My original complaint was that there are no decent places in my part of the UES (72nd and 1st), or at least within a 10 block radius. God knows there's almost nothing in the 60s, and in the 70s my choices are generally either too expensive or not worth whatever they're charging. And don't get me started on 2nd Avenue, it may look fancier but as I said previously those new places are prettier versions of the old frat-bars (Mo's Caribbean closed and was replaced by a spiffier version of itself, for example).

So my point was that with all the UES folks going downtown, there is a demand for a cool experience with good food at decent prices. With the rents up here being somewhat lower than those downtown, you'd think some entrepreneur would set up shop up here so we don't always have to hop the 4,5,6 line to get decent grub on a school night.

OK, rant over.

[Sneakeater]

If you walk over to Cafe Boulud you can make yourself very happy.

[Vinotas]

If you walk over to Cafe Boulud you can make yourself very happy.

←

Yes, but again that's a special occasion place (for me at least). I am referring to everyday eateries that won't break the bank.

[weinoo]

If you walk over to Cafe Boulud you can make yourself very happy.

←

That's true, but I think the OP was asking about places that are a little more hip and a little less pricey than Cafe Boulud, someplace where you might go once or twice a week, and not spend $150 each time.

Here's what OP said:

As someone who resides on the UES, I find it frustrating that I can think of only one dependably good and well-priced steak/frites bistrot within a 10 block radius (Bandol), and only one sushi joint (Sushi Hana), with one interesting wine bar (Sake Hana). Payard has been disappointing me lately, and Atlantic Grill starts veering into high-cost territory (not to mention high attitude).

Where's our Spotted Pig? Where's our Bar Veloce or Solex (wine bars in the East Village that I feel could easily be transported to our neck of the woods)? Where's our young, ambitious chef looking for cheap rent (York and 1st Avenues can't be too expensive considering the places that survive there)?

And I disagree with what Fat Guy said:

So, you know, if someone lives in the approximate area you're describing then that person isn't in any way my neighbor. If you walk out my door you're on one of the most densely packed restaurant blocks in town: Bistro du Nord, Pascalou, Vico, Island, Joanna's, Sarabeth's, Table d'Hote, Square Meal, Ciao Bella

Seriously, when was the last time anyone was at any of these places? Quite simply, there are no Spotted Pigs, Bar Veloces, or Solexes anywhere, in any part, of that huge neighborhood known as the upper east side.

[Nathan]

(full disclosure: a couple friends are among the partners behind it)

Vespa Wine Bar (82nd and 2nd?) has a different vibe than a Bar Veloce...but it's rather comparable.

I wouldn't travel for it but if I was up there I'd go to it.

[kathryn]

Also, what growth has there been on the UWS? It all seems concentrated in the same area, give or take. There's Bar Bouloud right by Lincoln Center.

But everything else seems to be between 72nd street and 90th street or so: Grandaisy, Salumeria Rosi, Jacques Torres, Grom, Fatty Crab, West Branch, Shake Shack, 81, Dovetail, the revamped Aix, the revamped Rain, Valenti's new place, new Kefi location...

[Sneakeater]

Why in the world would you expect a hip vibe on the UES?

[Fat Guy]

(full disclosure: a couple friends are among the partners behind it)

Vespa Wine Bar (82nd and 2nd?)  has a different vibe than a Bar Veloce...but it's rather comparable.

I wouldn't travel for it but if I was up there I'd go to it.

←

I also can't imagine traveling for Bar Veloce, and I haven't been to Vespa, but I think both Bar @ Etats-Unis and Taste/W.I.N.E. are very good wine bars with tasty victuals. And don't forget Accademia del Vino.

And I disagree with what Fat Guy said:

So, you know, if someone lives in the approximate area you're describing then that person isn't in any way my neighbor. If you walk out my door you're on one of the most densely packed restaurant blocks in town: Bistro du Nord, Pascalou, Vico, Island, Joanna's, Sarabeth's, Table d'Hote, Square Meal, Ciao Bella

Seriously, when was the last time anyone was at any of these places? Quite simply, there are no Spotted Pigs, Bar Veloces, or Solexes anywhere, in any part, of that huge neighborhood known as the upper east side.

←

That depends what you mean by "anyone." I've been to just about all of them in the past year. More to the point, those restaurants tend to be busy, which is in part the explanation for their longevity. Though not as busy as Sfoglia over on Lexington (unless you count brunch at Sarabeth's, which is Momofuku busy).

I'll be the first to agree that the downtown restaurant scene is pretty amazing. But the excellence of that scene is due to a relatively small number of establishments. Uptown, downtown, all around the town, most restaurants suck. And then there are a few good ones. Downtown has more of those, but there are more uptown than most downtown people (or even uptown people) often assume.

[weinoo]

Why in the world would you expect a hip vibe on the UES?

←

I wouldn't and don't. But Vinotoas was asking, in his original post, for a place with a bit of that vibe.

Uptown, downtown, all around the town, most restaurants suck.

←

Agree with that.