What's your beef w/ eating in Toronto?

[aser]

Sushi sushi zzzushi zzzzzzzzz..........

Sushi posts by far outrank any on this board.

What makes bad sushi so acceptable in our city? It's by far the most bastardized cuisine out there. Guilty parties include non-Japanese restauranteurs, yet the blame also lies on the shoulders of consumers? It's the chicken or the egg syndrome, does bad sushi start w/ poorly trained chefs or does it begin w/ customers demanding bargain basement pricing? Are businessmen/women simply supplying the rabid demand for makis of dubious quality.

Would you buy a diamond ring for $200? Wouldn't you question the quality of the diamond at that price? Then why is it acceptable to buy AYCE sushi for $15? Would you not question the quality of the fish at $15? Sushi is inherently expensive, if you care about ingredients at all. People have a hard time grasping this concept.

Which leads to the crux of my peeve; sushi becoming the definitive food of Japan according to Torontoians. When in actuality, it is reserved as a meal for special occasions and eaten sparingly by Japanese.

A recent tagline in the Manpuku review in NOW sums up my frustration with TO diners.

"Manpuku proves a Japanese restaurant can thrive without sushi"

If critics in the city are perpetuating this notion of sushi as the consummate Japanese food, what chances do eaters have at being exposed to anything beyond sushi? It really pains me to see the lack of ramen, udon, soba, nabe, yakitori, izakaya estaurants in Toronto. Surely we can afford to trade a few sushi spots for some of these.

Before you think I'm being a poo poo pants, talking about our weaknesses can do us a world of good. Hopefully some enterprising restauranteur is doing his market research and somehow stumbled upon this post. Before you know it, we could be seeing things like yakitori or a taco truck or a khao soi stand or a xinjian lamb kebab stand or a _______. Gosh I get teary just thinking about it.

Now don't get me started on pad thai, that could be pt 2 to this post. I shall refrain.........for now.

[Endy']

If critics in the city are perpetuating this notion of sushi as the consummate Japanese food, what chances do eaters have at being exposed to anything beyond sushi?

←

that's one writer out of many. A review in the Globe specifically called out the same lack of non-sushi Japanese restaurants that you mention.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...0628.wnuttall28

as for the idea that sushi dominates this board...I'm really not sure where that comes from. There are certainly some topics I think are overdiscussed here, but I don't think sushi is one of them. Looking through the 100 newest threads, I see 1 thread about kaiseki, and 1 thread on Japanese, and that's it. And hey, as we've been reminded, all Japanese food isn't sushi.

if sushi feels overdiscussed, it's probably because there aren't many worthy options in town. If you asked for everyone's top 5 choices, I'm certain the same few would be repeated over and over.

EDIT: oh, and now that I read the NOW mag article...if you had clicked through to the article itself instead of just reading the tagline, you'd see the writer gives Manpuku kudos for doing non-sushi Japanese. In the very first paragraph, actually. So the tagline really reads more like encouragement of non-sushi Japanese than anything else.

double edit: I can't help but feel like I've been trolled.

Edited July 22, 2008 by Endy' (log)

[aser]

oops, I forgot to mention that I tried to post this on chowhound, but the mods removed it asap. The first statement was in regards to that board. Sorry for the confusion, I should've elaborated further before moving the post over here.

The mods over there are a pain in the......

The tagline irritates me because it gives the impression to readers that non-sushi Japanese restaurants are a rare anomaly. When we both know cooked food restaurants far outnumber sushi ones in Japan. Unfortunately, we just don't have a big enough Japanese population to support anything beyond sushi.

Edited July 22, 2008 by aser (log)

[Endy']

the tagline was appropriate given that NOW doesn't review restaurants in Japan, though.

[aser]

the tagline was appropriate given that NOW doesn't review restaurants in Japan, though.

←

Well obviously. I just think it reinforces the stereotype of Japanese restaurants as sushi-centric. Things doesn't have to be that way, the perception of cooked Japanese food as an anomaly can change. Taglines like that doesn't help. Wishful thinking on my behalf? Probably.......

Also, the post isn't just an avenue for me to rant. I would like to hear what other people like to see change for the better in Toronto's culinary scene.

[sadistick]

We need a larger variety of street food vendors! stupid city councilors.....

[kinpachi]

I just wanted to add, as a worker/friend of Manpuku...

First off, thanks for the Kudos.

It's actually difficult for us to get a variety of Japanese ingredients at a fair price in Toronto, and frustrating for us restaurateurs as well at times.

For example, in order for us to make the takoyaki alone, with the appropriate amounts of shoga (ginger) alone took us a while, and if you were with us at the beginning, we didn't include it in the takoyaki. It wasn't quite cost prohibitive, but to make it more authentic, we decided to include it in the takoyaki. To be honest, even now, many people complain that our octopus pieces aren't big enough, but most people from Japan or others who have been to Japan have yet to complain. I've written ad nausem on my own blog about it because some days, it's really frustrating. For us, it's a matter of keeping the takoyaki at an affordable price, but also keeping it well within the acceptable limits. We don't believe that takoyaki should be a luxury item, but we do want to keep it real.

For one, we make everything from scratch without compromise, and we also try and get as affordable octopus as possible. I don't agree with others that say that Kenzo Ramen has better takoyaki (at $7 too), because I don't believe the huge size of octopus is authentic, but most Torontonians seem to look at it from a volume perspective. For us, the batter is more than just a delivery system for the octopus, and is the essential piece to making takoyaki tasty in the first place.

And here's where it gets to the same way that you guys have been talking about. It's a big reason why sushi houses in Toronto are so terrible. The very first thing is that everyone wants volume rather than quality, which makes it hard for anyone to find a good sushi place. The other thing is, is that it's supposed to be more of a "special occasion" meal. Heck, when I was living in Japan for a year, I didn't eat sushi every day because it would be at least 4,000 yen a meal if I did so. How many sushi restaurants have we been to where some of the fish (especially the white tuna) has been frozen and cut, and left ice crystals on the inside of our mouths?

At the end of the day, I wonder how much education can be tossed out there. Once again, I'll have to use our own restaurant as an example, but many people have talked about our rice quality, and other things like that, but for the vast majority of the people that have been to Japan, or are Japanese, we have consistent return customers. It's that gap between those that grew up with the food, and those that read about the food and have this weird belief in their head that they picked up from reading or watching something like iron chef that is frustrating for us restaurateurs as well.

I'm not saying that our restaurant is the best in the city by far, but we are just trying to make casual Japanese food accessible, so our standards are high for the type of food that we make. It's gotta start with us, the people owning the restaurants, to bring over the "other side" of Japan, while importers have to continue to work to get appropriate ingredients into Canada, and customers have to keep supporting restaurants that serve food that's not a part of the "norm". Hopefully, people will begin to realize that Toronto is just plain old missing a whole entire section of Japanese cuisine.

Perhaps most importantly, we're starting to see more and more Japanese return and come to Toronto. I'm sure as the Japanese population within our city rises, we'll see a need for more authentic and varied cuisine, but it's gotta start somewhere, and we're glad you guys support the cause.

Thanks again!

[aser]

Sure you guys might not have perfected every dish, but I fully support your cause to bring light to everyday comfort foods of Japan. Now when will there be a yakitori spot in Toronto?

[kinpachi]

Sure you guys might not have perfected every dish, but I fully support your cause to bring light to everyday comfort foods of Japan. Now when will there be a yakitori spot in Toronto?

←

lol. We'll consider it, but it might be a seasonal thing. Come by and tell the owner that you want Yakitori, and we'll try and figure out if we can do it. Such as it is, we have a non-competition agreement that we had to sign, because there are two other Japanese restaurants in the Grange.

Oh, and because I forgot, here is the original post I made on my blog about Takoyaki. Yeah it's a bit whiny, but I was having a bad day with people complaining about it online: http://kinnonyee.livejournal.com/328860.html

BTW, I'm not allowed to talk about this kind of stuff on Chowhound. They've deleted two LONG posts I made in response to one woman who seems to have it in for our restaurant.

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/350694

There's a lot of things I'd like to complain about other Takoyaki in Toronto and such, but whatever. I'm censored there, so I refuse to talk about it with them anymore.

Edited August 2, 2008 by kinpachi (log)

[aser]

the chowhound gods are very temperamental, trying to deduce their deletion logic is beyond me.

I actually went back to manpuku yesterday for lunch, had the curry udon and takosen. The takoyaki is definitely better than Kenzo or Naniwa Taro at T&T (Middlefield & Steeles), it's decent for Toronto (a low benchmark). Friendly service in a relaxed atmosphere.

Nice to see kaedama (noodle refill) as an option.

Edited August 2, 2008 by aser (log)

[kinpachi]

the chowhound gods are very temperamental, trying to deduce their deletion logic is beyond me.

I actually went back to manpuku yesterday for lunch, had the curry udon and takosen. The takoyaki is definitely better than Kenzo or Naniwa Taro at T&T (Middlefield & Steeles), it's decent for Toronto (a low benchmark). Friendly service in a relaxed atmosphere.

Nice to see kaedama (noodle refill) as an option.

←

Ah thank you for those compliments. The only other thing that I can see to boost our Takoyaki through the roof would be bigger octopus chunks, but once again, we want it to be affordable for people. It is an authentic Osaka recipe which we adjusted just slightly to get a crisper outer shell. But yeah, we're always trying to improve and expand ever so slightly.

[Kyubee]

the chowhound gods are very temperamental, trying to deduce their deletion logic is beyond me.

I actually went back to manpuku yesterday for lunch, had the curry udon and takosen. The takoyaki is definitely better than Kenzo or Naniwa Taro at T&T (Middlefield & Steeles), it's decent for Toronto (a low benchmark). Friendly service in a relaxed atmosphere.

Nice to see kaedama (noodle refill) as an option.

←

What I agree most is Aser's comment "it's decent for Toronto (a low benchmark)."

I am in full support of Manpuku but I also hope they will listen to customer's comment to improve food quality without the assumption people giving comments has no or lack of experience to Japan or Japanese food.

Manpuku is a new establishment and I have been there a few times. Why do I go there ? I like the food there and it provides something that cannot be found in that area with reasonable pricing, unlike there are "many choices" if one wants chinese food in chinatown. Are there things to improve ? (ie. rice quality, curry, soup base...) It is a very easy question provided that Manpuku is so green.

[kinpachi]

the chowhound gods are very temperamental, trying to deduce their deletion logic is beyond me.

I actually went back to manpuku yesterday for lunch, had the curry udon and takosen. The takoyaki is definitely better than Kenzo or Naniwa Taro at T&T (Middlefield & Steeles), it's decent for Toronto (a low benchmark). Friendly service in a relaxed atmosphere.

Nice to see kaedama (noodle refill) as an option.

←

What I agree most is Aser's comment "it's decent for Toronto (a low benchmark)."

I am in full support of Manpuku but I also hope they will listen to customer's comment to improve food quality without the assumption people giving comments has no or lack of experience to Japan or Japanese food.

Manpuku is a new establishment and I have been there a few times. Why do I go there ? I like the food there and it provides something that cannot be found in that area with reasonable pricing, unlike there are "many choices" if one wants chinese food in chinatown. Are there things to improve ? (ie. rice quality, curry, soup base...) It is a very easy question provided that Manpuku is so green.

←

There is always going to be room for improvement, and as a restaurant, we strive to make things better because we want to improve the experience for our customers. For us, it's going to always be a delicate balancing act. Manpuku was never meant to be a "Kaji Sushi", offering the top quality materials that people may want on a particular night. Within the context of what is being aimed for, we are trying our hardest not to sacrifice quality nor quantify, and always striving towards an authentic experience for our customers.

Is it an assumption on my part regarding some customer comments? (Speaking alone, and not on behalf of the restaurant that is.) Yes and no. Customers, of course, need to express their opinions, otherwise we will never improve. For instance, authentic Italian foods taste vastly different from, let's say, East Side Mario's. I know lots of people love thick and heavy Italian sauces, but most of the time, IMHO, there is a much more subtle taste and flavour to authentic Italian eateries.

For us, we made many adjustments in the first month alone, and will continue with the adjustments to give people value for their dollar. Part of the reason why we are confident that we have the tastes largely correct is that we had a staff member who was a trained Japanese chef who also worked part time in the Yorkville area. Giving us some scathing criticism on some of the food, she has helped shape our food into the authentic tastes that we feel confident about. That's also not discounting the inordinate amount of travel the owner takes part in, as well as the co-owner's own Japanese heritage.

The most important thing though, is that we are keeping an eye out. Where people are posting comments and criticisms on Chowhound, Martini Boys and the like, we are observing and processing what needs to be improved, and what is within reason for us to improve.

Nevertheless, (getting back to the original topic) there are just some off beat and crazy accusations from our critics, both professional and amateur a like. Perhaps most interestingly is how some of them have shown their colours by the examples of what they believe to be what is "true authentic Japanese cuisine". For example, calling Ajisen Ramen an authentic experience, pointing out T&T's takoyaki as being authentic, or saying all sushi restaurants give an izakaiya experience, is shocking to many of us, as well as Japanese people who have immigrated or visited our country. Heck, I've even observed a thread talking about how authentic Okonomi House's okonomiyaki is, even though it's not served directly on a teppen stove, nor has the authenticity of a modan-yaki, or Hiroshima Style okonomiyaki. To me personally, all I can do is chuckle.

I realize I've been ranting, but I'm interested in this all as a casual observer, and as a friend of the restaurant who has seen lots of critics come out of the woodwork. Some of those suggestions (especially pertaining to service) will be taken into great consideration. So far, we feel we've been fairly successful in capturing the essence of alternative, CHEAP Japanese cuisine. It's not a final step, but merely the first, and hopefully just the beginning of changing the culture of cuisine in Toronto.

Edited August 6, 2008 by kinpachi (log)

[Freckles]

No good Mexican restaurants here. What wouldn't I give for something along the lines of a Frontera Grill...?!

[phoenikia]

No good Mexican restaurants here.  What wouldn't I give for something along the lines of a Frontera Grill...?!

←

Have you tried Frida yet? Although it probably won't be along the lines of Frontera, it might be worth trying.

http://www.fridarestaurant.ca/

Edited February 15, 2009 by phoenikia (log)