First Whetstone Purchase... Advice needed!

[OliverN]

Hi everyone,

So I've decided to finally take the plunge and try out knife sharpening for myself,

I have been eyeing this one:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=...3072,43071&ap=1

It's a combination 1000/4000 stone and I was wondering if you thought it was a good buy for a beginner?

[JimH]

Water stones require constant care as they wear easily. This means flattening on plate glass (I can't quite remember the right term but plate is close enough).

[sygyzy]

I think the 1000/4000 is good for a beginner. You will want to get to closer graduations when you get more into it.

[melkor]

Water stones require constant care as they wear easily.  This means flattening on plate glass (I can't quite remember the right term but plate is close enough).

←

I flatten my 5000 grit stone against my 2500 grit stone, my 2500 against my 1000, the 1000 against my 250, and the 250 against the sidewalk in front of my house...

[JimH]

I flatten my 5000 grit stone against my 2500 grit stone, my 2500 against my 1000, the 1000 against my 250, and the 250 against the sidewalk in front of my house...

←

I was taught how to use them by a retired boatbuilder.

[OliverN]

So I need to sharpen my knife with a sharpener, and flatten my sharpener with a ...?

Does it ever end?!?

Thanks for the help everyone, I just wanted to make sure that was indeed for knives and not just for chisels and the like.

[Rua]

I have the lee valley 4000 and a lobster brand 1000 and use both on my knives. mostly I just use the 1000 and a strop, may as well order some of the green compound from lee valley while you're at it

[JMT]

Soak it for 10 to 15 min before use, it will take a while before it needs to be flattened, and a stone that is a bit dished can still be used to sharpen. If you need to remove lots of steel or sharpen a really dull knife, start with something lower grit, like a 320 diamond stone.

Diamond stones can also be used for flattening.

You could also get a 4000/8000 stone and a standalone 1000, as you will use the 1000 side more than the 4000 side.

If you are just getting one stone, that stone seems good though.

[ray goud]

Please just accept the 21st century and try the diamond stones. They are far and away the best, if you go for the momocrystalline ones. The same source, Lee Valley, sells some of the best brands. You won't have to worry about water soaking or oil contamination. I build wooden furniture and I used to use the old-fashioned stuff, but I have realized the error of my ways and reformed!

Ray

[ray goud]

Please just accept the 21st century and try the diamond stones. They are far and away the best, if you go for the momocrystalline ones. The same source, Lee Valley, sells some of the best brands. You won't have to worry about water soaking or oil contamination. I build wooden furniture and I used to use the old-fashioned stuff, but I have realized the error of my ways and reformed!

Ray

←

I meant to say monocrystalline instead of what I wrote. Also, diamond stones never need flattening. And also learn how to create a micro-bevel; that will save a lot of time when the edge needs a quick touch-up.

Ray

[Octaveman]

Hi everyone,

So I've decided to finally take the plunge and try out knife sharpening for myself,

I have been eyeing this one:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=...3072,43071&ap=1

It's a combination 1000/4000 stone and I was wondering if you thought it was a good buy for a beginner?

←

Hello Oliver,

I'm not familiar with the brand of stone you referenced but I'm sure that 1k/4k combo would be fine for a while. You'd be surprised how long these stones last. The 1k will wear out faster than the 4k though. This would mean you'd eventually only have 1/2 of a combo stone as the 1k wears out and you still have plenty of 4k.

I am familiar with Norton stones as they are pretty good for the cost. Check them out. Given what I said about wearing down of the lower grit stone, I would suggest getting a single 1k stone and a combo 4k/8k stone. The latter combo stone will last a very long time as they wear much slower.

Yes, you very much need to keep your stones flat or they will not do the job of sharpening your knives correctly. A simple flattener is fine. Lee Valley calls it a truer. It is a must.

Other considerations as time goes on and you get more proficient at sharpening. An even lower grit of around 600 will be needed for a couple of reasons. First, to make quicker repair of your knives if they ever get chipped. A 1k can do the job but it will take a longer time to gte the job done. Second, with frequent sharpenings over time, your edge/bevel will need to be thinned out. Same reason...a 1k would make the job very time consuming but a 500-600 grit would be much quicker. But this is not an immediate must have. Another optional but very convenient item is the stone holder also shown at Lee Valley. It holds the stones higher up on the counter giving you better knuckle clearance.

The diamond stones that others have spoken about are the DMT Diasharp stones. I have three of them all in the lower grits (XXC, C & F). Nice but pricey. If you're serious about learning the art and continuing, I would suggest getting good stones one or two at a time until you have a complete and efficient collection of stones. Shapton Pro stones are damn near the best you can get...and they don't require soaking. A huge plus. Shapton Glass stones are also good but I've heard opinions on both sides of the spectrum.

A few other sites to check out to make sure you're getting the best price are...

Japan Woodworker

Craftsman Studio

Tools for Working Wood

This should keep you busy for a while.

Bob

[Rembrant Wood]

Hi everyone,

So I've decided to finally take the plunge and try out knife sharpening for myself,

I have been eyeing this one:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=...3072,43071&ap=1

It's a combination 1000/4000 stone and I was wondering if you thought it was a good buy for a beginner?

←

Hello Oliver,

I'm not familiar with the brand of stone you referenced but I'm sure that 1k/4k combo would be fine for a while. You'd be surprised how long these stones last. The 1k will wear out faster than the 4k though. This would mean you'd eventually only have 1/2 of a combo stone as the 1k wears out and you still have plenty of 4k.

I am familiar with Norton stones as they are pretty good for the cost. Check them out. Given what I said about wearing down of the lower grit stone, I would suggest getting a single 1k stone and a combo 4k/8k stone. The latter combo stone will last a very long time as they wear much slower.

Yes, you very much need to keep your stones flat or they will not do the job of sharpening your knives correctly. A simple flattener is fine. Lee Valley calls it a truer. It is a must.

Other considerations as time goes on and you get more proficient at sharpening. An even lower grit of around 600 will be needed for a couple of reasons. First, to make quicker repair of your knives if they ever get chipped. A 1k can do the job but it will take a longer time to gte the job done. Second, with frequent sharpenings over time, your edge/bevel will need to be thinned out. Same reason...a 1k would make the job very time consuming but a 500-600 grit would be much quicker. But this is not an immediate must have. Another optional but very convenient item is the stone holder also shown at Lee Valley. It holds the stones higher up on the counter giving you better knuckle clearance.

The diamond stones that others have spoken about are the DMT Diasharp stones. I have three of them all in the lower grits (XXC, C & F). Nice but pricey. If you're serious about learning the art and continuing, I would suggest getting good stones one or two at a time until you have a complete and efficient collection of stones. Shapton Pro stones are damn near the best you can get...and they don't require soaking. A huge plus. Shapton Glass stones are also good but I've heard opinions on both sides of the spectrum.

A few other sites to check out to make sure you're getting the best price are...

Japan Woodworker

Craftsman Studio

Tools for Working Wood

This should keep you busy for a while.

Bob

←

I learned to sharpen 30 yr ago on the Norton tri-stone set and a hard Arkansas for finish. I'm probably going to get a black arkansas and maybe a very fine Shapton or waterstone to see which is the best finisher. I STILL like the Norton red India Fine for getting all but the last step. It's available in a handy 11x3" that means a long broad stroke and the big stone stays put,but also can be handheld. For a "heavy duty" like a big German chefs of my 8 1/2 Deba it's fine enough as a dinish up with the steel glazes the grains smooth. I've been using my Hard Arkansas (a great 10" tri-stone rig from a company in Arkansas) on my 7" "mini-chef" and generally cooks I work with are quite surprised a knife gets that sharp. It's a VERY thin blade. Unlike water stones,Norton Crystolon + India stones are not disintigrating into slurry,so they last many years before dishing. Water stones are said to be faster-but I feel the larger 11" size offsets that. A Hard Arkansas won't dish or wear out for....who knows...20-30 yrs?

Diamond steels are sort of fine diamond stones in stick form. Handy by don't do a glaze like a smooth steel. Steeling is less obvious in technique and even few Pro cooks do it right. The ideal method is to use each hand,ne for each side of the knife with every stroke full heel to tip and a quick light whip without altering angle. It took aboit a year before I got it right. You can hear and feel the blade trying to tell you what it wants.

[Rembrant Wood]

Hi everyone,

So I've decided to finally take the plunge and try out knife sharpening for myself,

I have been eyeing this one:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=...3072,43071&ap=1

It's a combination 1000/4000 stone and I was wondering if you thought it was a good buy for a beginner?

←

Hello Oliver,

I'm not familiar with the brand of stone you referenced but I'm sure that 1k/4k combo would be fine for a while. You'd be surprised how long these stones last. The 1k will wear out faster than the 4k though. This would mean you'd eventually only have 1/2 of a combo stone as the 1k wears out and you still have plenty of 4k.

I am familiar with Norton stones as they are pretty good for the cost. Check them out. Given what I said about wearing down of the lower grit stone, I would suggest getting a single 1k stone and a combo 4k/8k stone. The latter combo stone will last a very long time as they wear much slower.

Yes, you very much need to keep your stones flat or they will not do the job of sharpening your knives correctly. A simple flattener is fine. Lee Valley calls it a truer. It is a must.

Other considerations as time goes on and you get more proficient at sharpening. An even lower grit of around 600 will be needed for a couple of reasons. First, to make quicker repair of your knives if they ever get chipped. A 1k can do the job but it will take a longer time to gte the job done. Second, with frequent sharpenings over time, your edge/bevel will need to be thinned out. Same reason...a 1k would make the job very time consuming but a 500-600 grit would be much quicker. But this is not an immediate must have. Another optional but very convenient item is the stone holder also shown at Lee Valley. It holds the stones higher up on the counter giving you better knuckle clearance.

The diamond stones that others have spoken about are the DMT Diasharp stones. I have three of them all in the lower grits (XXC, C & F). Nice but pricey. If you're serious about learning the art and continuing, I would suggest getting good stones one or two at a time until you have a complete and efficient collection of stones. Shapton Pro stones are damn near the best you can get...and they don't require soaking. A huge plus. Shapton Glass stones are also good but I've heard opinions on both sides of the spectrum.

A few other sites to check out to make sure you're getting the best price are...

Japan Woodworker

Craftsman Studio

Tools for Working Wood

This should keep you busy for a while.

Bob

←

I learned to sharpen 30 yr ago on the Norton tri-stone set and a hard Arkansas for finish. I'm probably going to get a black arkansas and maybe a very fine Shapton or waterstone to see which is the best finisher. I STILL like the Norton red India Fine for getting all but the last step. It's available in a handy 11x3" that means a long broad stroke and the big stone stays put,but also can be handheld. For a "heavy duty" like a big German chefs of my 8 1/2 Deba it's fine enough as a dinish up with the steel glazes the grains smooth. I've been using my Hard Arkansas (a great 10" tri-stone rig from a company in Arkansas) on my 7" "mini-chef" and generally cooks I work with are quite surprised a knife gets that sharp. It's a VERY thin blade. Unlike water stones,Norton Crystolon + India stones are not disintigrating into slurry,so they last many years before dishing. Water stones are said to be faster-but I feel the larger 11" size offsets that. A Hard Arkansas won't dish or wear out for....who knows...20-30 yrs?

Diamond steels are sort of fine diamond stones in stick form. Handy by don't do a glaze like a smooth steel. Steeling is less obvious in technique and even few Pro cooks do it right. The ideal method is to use each hand,ne for each side of the knife with every stroke full heel to tip and a quick light whip without altering angle. It took aboit a year before I got it right. You can hear and feel the blade trying to tell you what it wants.

←

I should note.....the USUAL method with both the Norton india and Arkansas stones is to use mineral oil. DON'T. You use water. with water these stones let you lay down a steeper angle,they grind a bit faster too.

[ray goud]

In my opinion, formed over 14 years making wood furniture, forget both the oil and water stones, and get a good quality combo or set of diamond stones. Lee Valley sells good ones, as does the Japan Woodworker. You don't need any fluid on them while you are sharpening, and a quick clean up with a damp sponge and dry towel is all they need. There IS advancement in technology! Those stones last a very long time. I still have and use the first pocket Dia-Sharps I bought ten years ago. Just teach yourself how to maintain the bevel by hand, without any unnecessary jigs or fixtures.

Ray

[Edward J]

Oliver,

You seem to have gotten the advice of quite a few woodworkers...

Don't get me wrong, I've been in the hospitality biz for more than 25 years now. When I need to relax and have a hobby that doesn't include food, I turn to woodworking as well. If you think cooks are addicted to sharp knives, see how woodworkers are addicted to planes and chisels, well, for that matter, any edge tool.

The stone--whatever you choose, is only one aspect of sharpening. Every woodworker and knife freak has thier own methods of sharpening, and if they work, well then they work and there's no need to question or scoff at their methods.

There are two rules of thumb when sharpening.

The first is to always use progressively finer grits of abrasive, with many people going as high as 8-12,000 grit range. The fine the grit, the finer the surface, and therefore the longer the edge will last you.

The second rule of thumb is always to respect the bevel. The bevel is the angle at which both sides of the knife meet. Most knives are around the 2o-22 degree range, with some Japanese knives having bevels of 18 degrees or even lower.

If you imagine an axe, it would have an angle of maybe 35 or even 40 degrees, a big, fat, "V". This is a very strong edge, it won't collapse or fatigue when chopping wood, but it isn't really all that sharp. If you imagine a surgeon's scalpel, it would have an bevel of around 10 degrees, a very slim, tapering "V". Wicked sharp, but the edge will curl over and collapse if it hits a bone or even scar tissue.

For the first time users, maintaining a consistant bevel free hand on a stone is fairly hard to do. There are jigs available for this purpose and even some stones mounted on rods that are guided and guarantee you a consistant bevel (also available at L.V....) If you want to experiment sharpening free hand, I'd suggest leaving your "good knives" in a drawer for a while and experiment on some lousy knives untill you are confident.

There are so good books on sharpening in general. The C.I.A (Culinary Inst. of America) has a good one out, and, yes the woodworkers have some good ones out too. L. Lee (founder of L.V.) has a very good book on sharpening called, "Sharpening". (Well, whadja expect?) The best part of this book is the photographs of edges on various razor blades and other tools blown up to 100 x. This gives you a pretty good idea of how to start.

Oh. And don't get addicted to sharp woodworking tools. Once you start on that slippery slope you'll never stop slip-sliding away......

Hope this helps

[pyrguy]

A word on the diamond stones. Use a very light touch, just enough to keep the blade against the stone. They also work better after they have been used a couple of times. Good luck.

[paulraphael]

I'm far from an expert sharpener, but I'll add the observation that everyone I've seen who sharpens Japanese knives for a living (Dave Martell, the bladesmiths at Epicurean Edge and Korin), and everyone I've seen who makes these knives by hand, uses waterstones. Many of them seem to like the diamond stones in the coarse grits for repairing and rebevelling knives, but for sharpening and polishing they're all about waterstones. And strops, but that's another story.

One option that seems to work equally well is automotive wet/dry sandpaper mounted to a piece of float glass or ceramic tile. You can improvise your own setup with scrap materials and gluestick. This method is popular with some woodworkers as well. The advantage is very low cost of entry, and it's cheap and easy to experiment with lots of different grits. Also, no water or flattening needed. The disadvantage is that the longterm cost is high, and switching from grit to grit is a pain. It's a good way to learn, though, because the techniques are the same as with stones.

People have as many opinions about stones as they do about knives. I decided to get an inexpensive Norton set. It comes with a 220/1000, a 4000/8000 stone, and a flattener. Total cost was about $120 delivered. I figure that by the time I wear these out, I'll have gotten my money's worth and will then know enough about sharpening to figure out what stones to buy next. These inexpensive stones are probably less efficient and less nice to work with than top stones like the Shaptons, but they're capable of doing a good job ... right now I'm the weak link, not the stones.