Japanese Knives: The Big Topic

[Octaveman]

Hattori HD (105mm), Hattori FH (70mm), Misono Swedish Carbon steel (80mm), Misono Molybdenum (80mm), Tosagata (4"), Global, Al Mar (3") and a bunch others under 4 inches (Shun, Kasumi, MAC, Ryusen).

They're out there just gotta do some digging. But you're right in that there didn't used to be a lot of choices. Recently the past few years have seen more and more brands sporting the shorter knives for the western market.

[paulraphael]

Thanks Bob,

I hadn't seen any of those ... had just been looking at Korin and at the more familiar lines at JCK (hadn't checked out Hattori because of price). It's curious that with brands like Misono they dont cary pairing knives in their lower lines.

The Tosogata looks interesting. Cheap! I'm normally not a fan of the traditional handles, but they might work for a pairing knife. What do you think about this one?

[Octaveman]

Yeah, who knows tthe reasoning for the manufacturers making what they make. Tosagata knives have great steal and are good knives for the price. They are budget knives so handle materials and finish of the blade is not great. Not bad but just not all that great. As far as the paring knife, I honestly wouldn't know because I have little to no use for one. It's certainly worth a try at $25.

[Vaughan]

I have the 70mm Hattori FH and it's a great paring knife. Maintains an ultra sharp edge, is small and comfortable, which I like for things like mincing garlic, peeling, taking the skin off blanched tomatoes etc etc. A lot of the knife geeks (meant in a positive sense) seem to like the 150mm petty. I've considered getting a 150mm Blazen (Ryusen) as I hear they're a good knife but its a lot of money to spend on an experiment that may not work out. Let us know what you get and how you like it.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Vaughan (log)

[paulraphael]

I use a pairing knife mostly for detailed things where the food is in my hand, not on a cutting board ... peeling, coring, removing stems from strawberries, etc.. I usually use a pinch grip over the middle of the blade, so just the tip is poking out. I wonder if the 150mm knives are designed for different techniques ... and if so, what?

[WiscoNole]

I use my petty for shallots, small onions, garlic, and very precise cuts (fine julienne, brunoise and fine brunoise, etc.). That's definitely not all though...some jobs are just easier with a petty, as you have more control than with a chef's knife/gyuto.

[paulraphael]

Has anyone used the Misono Swedish steel (carbon) knives, or the molybdenum steel (stainless)?

They make a reasonably priced pairing knife in both these lines. I've seen it suggested that stainless is a good option with pairing knives, considering how acidic many of the fruits and things are that you cut with them. Not sure how big a deal this is.

The stainless series is on the soft side for Japanese knives.

[paulraphael]

Octaveman suggested that I write about my entry into the world of Japanese knives. I decided to wait until I had a bit of experience, including learning how to sharpen. It's now been several weeks and my one Japanese knife has spawned a couple of siblings.

Background, prejudices, etc.:

By nature I'm not a collector, and tend to find a good, all purpose tool, and use it to death. I'd used various low and middle end European style knives over the years before upgrading to a Schaaf Goldhamster chef's knife about five years ago. This knife wowed me every time I used it, and I used it for everything from mincing herbs to slicing roasts to hacking apart chickens. In the years I owned it I sharpened it on stones once; frequent steeling kept it sharp enough to shave with. Nevertheless, all the recent noise about Japanese knife nirvana got under my skin, and curiousity got the better of me.

After a mind-numbing amount of research and discussion with the sociopaths at knifeforums.com, I decided to try a Hiromoto AS gyuto in the 240mm length. This knife has been getting a reputation as an excellent value. It has a very hard, high end carbon steel edge, clad on both sides with stainless. It's available directly from Japan for $130 from Japanesechefsknife.com. Their service and shipping are outstanding.

Out of the box, the knife stuck me as light (but not feather light), slim, and nimble, in spite of being an inch and a half longer than what I'm used to. Fit and finish were not quite up to the standard of the German knife, but the blemishes (mostly around the handle) were easily touched up with sandpaper. In use, going back and forth between it and my german knife, it felt sharper but not dramatically so. On a scale of one to ten, one being a butter knife and ten being Star Wars light saber, the Hiromoto felt like and 8 and the Schaaf a 7.

This is where learning to sharpen came in. I bought the sharpening DVD from Korin.com, which is good for the basics. I also read tons online, and finally decided to start out with the so-called scary sharp system, which uses silicon carbide sandpaper mounted to glass, rather than using water stones. This mimics the way stones work, and while it's expensive in the long run, the intitial investment is much lower than with good water stones. I also purchased a horsehide strop from handamerican.com, which works with half-micron chrome oxide abrasive powder.

The learning curve was pretty easy. I'm still a beginner, but find it straightforward to get a good edge on the blade without destroying it (so far).

Needless to say, this is already more investment in time and gear that I ever would have imagined for maintaining a knife! I've now spent close to the cost of my German knife in tools and educational materials, just for taking care of the Japanese knife--and this is without having invested in real stones.

An advantage is that I can tune the edge to perform the exactly the way I like. The hard carbon steel can handle angles anywhere from the 15 degree (on each side) factory angle to a scalpel-like 5 degrees. The tradeoff is fragility. The sharper angles make a chip-prone edge that needs to be babied more than I'm probably willing. What I've ended up doing is leaving the factory angles on most of the knife, but thinning the three inches near the tip to 20 or so degrees. This allows it to slip easily through onions and hard garlic cloves when push-cutting the vertical cuts, but keeps the chopping edge stout.

Even at the factory angles, this is not intended to be a heavy duty, all-purpose knife. Anything hard or tough that can grab the edge is capable of chipping it. If I need to hack up a bird or chop chocolate, or hand a knife to someone not used to treating it like a surgical tool, out comes the German knife.

So now, with the refined edge and mirror polish from the strop, the performance is considerably better than it was out of the box. It slips effortlessly through anything, if you can get some forward or backward motion to the blade. It really likes to slice. It does less damage to the food than any knife I've used. An apple sliced with the Hiromoto will not brown, even after 45 minutes. It doesn't bruise herbs. It goes through onions silently (none of that telltale crunching sound). It's so easy to slice things to transparent thinness that I have to remind myself no to.

After experiencing all this, I expected the German knife to feel clumsy in comparison. But remarkably it doesn't. I'm amazed that this thing with the factory angles and minimal maintenance can come so close. It does all the things the Hiromoto does, just not quite as well. Sometimes the German knife requires effort. If the Japanese knife does, it means I'm doing something wrong. Conversely, the German knife does things that the Japanese one can't, or at least shouldn't.

In the end, the Hiromoto has become my main knife, and the Schaaf gets used more for the heavy cutting. The best thing I can say about the Hiromoto is that it makes prep work fun. Time will tell if this is still the case after the New Toy Mania wears off.

I would heartily recommend this knife, but only to someone willing to invest in learning to sharpen and maintain it. And it's a big investment, in both time and tools, compared with what you need for a softer, thicker knife. The advantage of the Japanese blade lies partly in its geometry, but largely in its ability to take and hold whatever edge that you give it. This advantage is lost if you're not playing an active role in its tuning and upkeep. These are sports cars, not family sedans. Choose acording to your disposition!

Before I stop rambling, I want to mention the other two knives I bought. One is a Mac 270mm bread knife. This thing is wonderful. For $60, it's the first good bread knife I've ever used. It cuts the bread, rather than crushing it or sawing it into a pile of crumbs. When it needs sharpening, though, I'll have to send it to a pro. Luckily It's not getting hammered on every day. The other is a 3" Al Mar chef series paring knife. This is the first paring knife I've ever liked. I had a Schaaf, but unlike the Schaaf chef's knife I never cared for the parer. It didn't fit right in my hand, and I could never get it razor sharp the way I want a paring knife to be. The Al Mar, in spite of being from their inexpensive line, takes a sharp edge easily. I put a very thin, very asymetrical bevel on it, and it holds up fine ... not surprising, since a paring knife spends little time banging into a cutting board. This knife was $50 well spent.

[budrichard]

Your Hiromoto AS gyuto is not of Japanese traditional sandwich construction and blade profile. A traditional Japanese blade has only a single bevel and there are some cutting techniques that cannot be performed without this style of blade. Your blade is western style and of single material construction from the on-line source i looked at.

I am currently using this source http://www.shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/index_e.html and have four of his blades at the present. Takeda comes to the Chicago Custom Knife Show each year and brings what i order. BTW, His sharpening system is the best i have ever used.

I started with a commercial Yanagi of sandwich construction which is very sharp. As time progressed, i ordered, using Murray Carter as a broker when he resided in Japan, a Honyaki from a top Japanese smith, forged of Hitachi # 1 white steel with ebony/ivory with silver inlay, it is the pinnacle of Japanese blade making but its price precludes me from ordering another!

I had Takeda make me a similar blade and the performnce is about the same.

Your Schaff from the information I could locate is stainless steel(actually think it is Hi carbon Stainless) which yield very sharp blades but are really no match for traditional Japanese blades.

If you want to try traditional Japanese style knives, i think you will find them the sharpest of all blades available as i have.-Dick

Edited November 20, 2007 by budrichard (log)

[paulraphael]

Hiromoto AS Tenmi-Jyuraku series:

http://japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyuraku...HEIGHT:%20187px

It's a sandwich of Hitachi Aogami Super steel, clad with soft stainless steel.

You're right that it's not a traditional Japanese knife. This wasn't meant as a review of those, since they're intended primarily for Japanese style cooking. I don't have much use for a single bevel knife and am not interested in the traditional handle style.

The Hiromoto is considered a "western style" Japanese knife, which is confusing, because what they really mean is a western-inspired shape with Japanese refinements, made with Japanese steel and blade geometry. It is different in a number of ways from a European style knife: The blade is thinner, the belly is shallower, the bevel angles are more acute, the bevel is asymetrical (though still two-sided) and the steel is harder. It can be made as sharp as any double bevel knife; the limit is how much edge fragility you're willing to suffer.

Edited November 21, 2007 by paulraphael (log)

[logicalmind]

I have had a similar experience to you with japanese knives. I had used victorinox chef's knives for a long time and had them sent out to be sharpened. But when I finally broke down to buy a japanese knife (a MAC btw) I also decided to buy sharpening stones and learn to do the sharpening myself(with help from the korin dvd). Luckily I was able to initially practice on my victorinox knives, which need much more frequent sharpenings. I'm really glad I took the plunge and got a japanese knive and learned to sharpen it myself.

[jsmith]

Just to add to the confusion some Western style Japanese knives don't use Japanese steel. My Misono (Minoso?) uses Swedish steel if I remember correctly.

[paulraphael]

Just to add to the confusion some Western style Japanese knives don't use Japanese steel.  My Misono (Minoso?) uses Swedish steel if I remember correctly.

←

Good point ... the swedes seem to know something too. Quite a few of the Japanese makers use some flavor of Swedish steel.

[Octaveman]

Paul, great review of the entire process you went through before and after buying your knives. I would beg to differ on the cost of stones to keep your knives going though. While some stones are better than others, there are a few good brands that are reasonably priced. Of course, the terms "expensive" and "reasonable" are relative to the individual but one has to keep in mind that the stones will last many many years. I've had my stones now for two years and they show little signs of wear. For an average home cook, I can honestly say stones will last more than 10 years. Your choice of knives too are excellent choices: the AS, the Al Mar and the MAC roast slicer are all great knives. You are also very correct in your assessments of how a truely sharp edge affects the quality of the food being cut. Good read.

Bud, very very nice knives. Is the Yanagiba and Deba in the first pic Takeda's too? If so, I think you're the only one I've seen who has them. What do you think of them? Also, your honyaki is stunning. Is that a Suisin? Tadatsuna? Beautiful. I'm sure it's a pure joy to use. As Paul said, most (not all) western styled Japanese knives are clad. Doesn't matter if it's a production knife or hand made.

[paulraphael]

I don't mean to suggest that the stones are unreasonably priced. I've found some Norton combo stones that I might get someday if the abrassive paper routine starts to feel cumbersome.

But I do think the maintenance gear for these knives is expensive ... stones, papers, strops, compounds, educational materials, etc. etc.. I base this on the price relative to the price of the thing being maintained. It would be very easy to spend more on the tool kit than I spent on my most expensive knife, and this is a knife that cost double what many cooks are willing to spend!

The economics are going to make sense to someone who's really into knives, or at least into knife-intensive cooking, but probably not so much to someone who just needs a cutting tool. In fact, if I was moving to a desert island and could only bring one knife, it would be the German one, no question about it. If you can only have one car, you take the sedan, not the Ferrari, even if leaving the Ferari behind makes you weep!

[budrichard]

Bud, very very nice knives.  Is the Yanagiba and Deba in the first pic Takeda's too?  If so, I think you're the only one I've seen who has them.  What do you think of them?  Also, your honyaki is stunning.  Is that a Suisin?  Tadatsuna?  Beautiful.  I'm sure it's a pure joy to use.  As Paul said, most (not all) western styled Japanese knives are clad.  Doesn't matter if it's a production knife or hand made.

←

All the knives in the first picture are made by Takeda. He is quite a charachter and is continualy sharpening knives as you talk to him. His hand sharpening tool pictured is the easiest way I have found to sharpen these knives. Takeda's knives are as sharp as any I have and although the final finishing is not as fine as the honyaki, the price differential is large. I also prefer purchasing from a custom maker rather than a factory knife but that comes from 35 years of custom knife collecting.

The honyaki as said was brokered for me by Murray Carter http://www.cartercutlery.com/ .

Murray actually apprenticed in Japan to learn Japanese blade making. While in Japan I asked him to procure this type of knife from the best Japanese bladesmith. The maker is Kenichi Shiraki who is an independant knife maker not working for any of the Japanese manufactures.

Typically a sushi chef will procure one of these and use for the rest of his career eventually reducing the length from 33cm. This one is 27cm long as I don't think i will ever use it enough to worry about the blade shortening. The one Takeda made for me is 30cm as my knife skills have improved to where I could handle the longer blade. My first commercial blade was 23cm long. Murray is a fine maker of traditional Japanese blades in his own right and my next blade will be from Murray.-Dick

Edited November 27, 2007 by weinoo (log)

[pizzajoe62]

hello everyone,

this is my 1st post...

i got here because of my interest in japanese cutlery...been following the various threads and glad to discover the wealth of information on the said topic.

my 1st japanese knives experience was with my brother several years back.

he is a professional chef & i am just an avid cook.

mine was the mac 9.5 chef pro series & he got the masamoto virgin steel from korin, same type & size.

we generally did not like the rust prone carbon steel at 1st coz it looked unsanitary.

as to sharpness, well, if ever there was an edge to the carbon steel, it was not significant.

however, the masamoto did sharpen easier.

this is why i plan to get a 2nd japanese knife w/ carbon steel & the patina on the kumagoro knives has that more "sanitary" look.

also the hammered finish might be more functional than just aesthetics.

the 1 thing i hate about my mac is the sticking of stuff on the blade since it is a bit taller compared to the masamoto.

i would love to hear more about the kumagoro knives...they have blue steel core and from what i gather, blue steel is a premium grade carbon steel.

joe

[Octaveman]

Yes, Bud, I'm very familiar with Carter and Takeda. I'm also familiar with Hattori, Kikuichimonji, Nenox and Suisin. I recently got a Carter that is an incredible piece of cutlery. I've gone from buying production knives to buying purely hand-made knives over the years and don't regret buying any knife along the way. I've settled on a handful of knives I use regularly. Below is a recent Carter purchase and below that are the three amigos. I have others knives of course but these are my main prep knives I rotate. I'm interested in your thoughts regarding Takeda's single beveled knives. Are subcontracted out or did Takeda make them? Why the drastically different kanji?

Carter 280mm white steel kurouchi

Kikuichimonji Honyaki 270mm

Hattori KD 270mm

Takeda 255mm custom with xtra belly

[mrsadm]

After a mind-numbing amount of research and discussion with the sociopaths at knifeforums.com, .....

←

HEY! I resemble that remark!

Seriously you've gotten me interested now in trying a few knives that I have no experience with so far. My knife collection (which is in my profile at knifeforums) needs some new friends!

I'm glad you are enjoying the Japanese knives.

[KLwood]

After a mind-numbing amount of research and discussion with the sociopaths at knifeforums.com, .....

←

HEY! I resemble that remark!

Seriously you've gotten me interested now in trying a few knives that I have no experience with so far. My knife collection (which is in my profile at knifeforums) needs some new friends!

I'm glad you are enjoying the Japanese knives.

←

Im in the same boat ... although I also went into the odd realm of woodworkers forums in order to gain a better understanding of the subtle properties of Blue vs. White steel...

In the end, I settled on the same Hiromoto AS Gyuto, altouugh I opted for an Edge Pro sharpening system and Im also using a strop instead of a traditional Steel for maintenance.

..so it seems that the research tends to lead the demanding cook or chef to the same conclusions with regards to Japanese cutlery... now, Onto the next obsession

[budrichard]

"I'm interested in your thoughts regarding Takeda's single beveled knives. Are subcontracted out or did Takeda make them? Why the drastically different kanji?"

If your worried about Knifeforums.com, then don't register for this site http://usualsuspect.net/ . A group of us Tactical Knife collectors got fed up with the unregulated atmosphere on both Knife and BladeForums and started this Forum about 5 years ago. It is now the premier knife forum on the web but you can't partake until your registration is validated.

Anyway to answer your questions, single bevel knives are traditional Japanese and for many reasons I am quite a traditionalist. I much prefer working directly with a maker rather than purchasing Custom Knives thourgh a purveyor so since Takeda comes to Chicago once per year, makes very nice customs at much more affordable price than top Japanese forgers, he is who is making my knives now. Because of cost, limited availablity and I'm not sure if the Japanese really think we are deserving on thier knives, the top knives rarely make it out of Japan. Murray being there at the time was just luck.

As far as I know Takeda makes all his own work.

Since I can't read kanji, I don't know.

If you come over to the 'Dark Side' and register on the Usual Suspects Network, I am sure we can help you obtain many more knives.-Dick

Edited November 27, 2007 by budrichard (log)

[Octaveman]

"I'm interested in your thoughts regarding Takeda's single beveled knives. Are subcontracted out or did Takeda make them? Why the drastically different kanji?"

If your worried about Knifeforums.com, then don't register for this site http://usualsuspect.net/ . A group of us Tactical Knife collectors got fed up with the unregulated atmosphere on both Knife and BladeForums and started this Forum about 5 years ago. It is now the premier knife forum on the web but you can't partake until your registration is validated.

okay, um, I'm going out on a limb here...why would I be worried about KF.com?

Anyway to answer your questions, single bevel knives are traditional Japanese and for many reasons I am quite a traditionalist. I much prefer working directly with a maker rather than purchasing Custom Knives thourgh a purveyor so since Takeda comes to Chicago once per year, makes very nice customs at much more affordable price than top Japanese forgers, he is who is making my knives now. Because of cost, limited availablity and I'm not sure if the Japanese really think we are deserving on thier knives, the top knives rarely make it out of Japan. Murray being there at the time was just luck.

As far as I know Takeda makes all his own work.

Since I can't read kanji, I don't know.

I know who Takeda is and sorry but I wasn't asking about what a single-beveled knife is. I own plenty already and I know what they are and what they do. I guess I should have been more specific. What do you think of Takeda's single-beveled knives' quality of craftmasnhip? Performance? Durability? Generally a maker will put his name or have a set signature for all his knives. The kanji on the single-beveled knives are completely different than his kuro-uchi knives. Makes me wonder who actually makes them.

If you come over to the 'Dark Side' and register on the Usual Suspects Network, I am sure we can help you obtain many more knives.-Dick

←

Thanks but I already know how and where to get all the knives I want and can afford.

[miles717]

The "unsanitary" look you refer to is what we knife knuts like to call patina.

All kidding aside, arguably, carbon steels have some qualities which can be considered advantageous when compared to stainless steels. The carbides tend to be smaller which produces a blade which will tend to sharpen more easily and will tend to be less frangible than most stainless blades at the same rockwell level. That said, there is the maintenance issue, to which you referred. In some cases that can be a significant drawback. It depends on how you will be using it and whether wiping your blade frequently is an inconvenience.

A lot of folks feel that the best of both worlds is a warikomi blade like the Kumagoro, which is a carbon steel core laminated between two layers of soft stainless steel. You get the benefits of the hard carbon steel and the maintenance benefits provided by the stainless. The Kumagoro blades are very well regarded. As long as you're not married to the idea of a western style handle, I think you'll be happy with what the Kumagoro knives bring to the table.

[Octaveman]

I thought it was the Yoshikane that had the stainless sides. From JWW.com...

The center layer is rust resistant SKD die steel originally designed for cutting metal. The cladding layers are soft SUS-405 stainless steel.

The Kumagoro has the carbon core (blue #2) with hammered carbon cladding.

I've never owned or used either one so I can't make first hand comments but people who have seen both give the Kumagoro a slight edge (no pun) over the Yoshikane. Both knives are very good though and can't go wrong with either one.

[miles717]

I thought it was the Yoshikane that had the stainless sides.  From JWW.com...

The center layer is rust resistant SKD die steel originally designed for cutting metal. The cladding layers are soft SUS-405 stainless steel.

The Kumagoro has the carbon core (blue #2) with hammered carbon cladding.

I've never owned or used either one so I can't make first hand comments but people who have seen both give the Kumagoro a slight edge (no pun) over the Yoshikane.  Both knives are very good though and can't go wrong with either one.

←

You're right, Bob. I stand corrected. The description on EE indicates it's soft carbon steel. I was under the impression that Kumagoro also used SUS405 sides, like the Yoshi, but it looks like they're opposite sides of the coin. One is carbon warikomi the other is stainless warikomi.

I concur with your assessment. There seems to be agreement among those that have used both that the Kumagoro provides a little better performance, but the differences are very slight. Both have good blade geometry and acceptable fit and finish. If you like the style of the knives, the decision really comes down to whether you want stainless or carbon.

Since the Kumagoro is entirely carbon steel, if someone is looking for the combo of stainless sides with carbon steel core, they won't fit the bill. Although they don't feature traditional Japanese wa-handled construction, Kikuichi and Hiromoto both make western style blades with warikomi construction. Both are very well made and readily available. I have knives from both Kikuichi and Hiromoto. I can attest that they're well made and are worth serious consideration.