Japanese Knives: The Big Topic

[paulraphael]

I think a couple of German knives are definitely worth having. When it comes time to chop chocolate, whack the head off of a trout or bronzino, bone a chicken, etc., a tough knife is a good friend. There are specialized Japanese blades for all these things, but unless there's a task you're doing all day long, there's little disadvantage to a single go-to chef's knife that can take all kinds of abuse.

It's also really nice to have a chef's knife you can hand to a guest if they want to help out. Hardly any of my friends with pro cooking experience know how to use a really sharp knife without destroying it. None of my amateur friends has a clue. The solution is to have a tough knife that you don't have to hide.

It sounds like you've discovered the problem with knife comparisons. The only way to really know a knife is to live with it and use it for a while. With repeated sharpenings you'll find an edge geometry that works best. And with repeated use you'll find a set of techniques that works best. Any attempt to use a new knife the same way as the ones your used to, or the same way as the ones your testing against, sets up an artificial situation. Of course, some knives will immediately reveal themselves to be crap, either through use or through attempts to sharpen them. But the good knives are more often separated by subtleties.

I said in a recent thread that a knife is really just a medium for your sharpening and cutting techniques. It's not much on its own. I traded up to my latest 270mm gyuto about three months ago. I liked it immediately, but its real value has been the continuing education it gives me in cutting and sharpening. Every time I take it to the stones I push it toward a higher performance geometry. And every time I cut with it I work to refine my technique. In a year or so it should be a pretty good knife, and I should be pretty good at using it! Then I'll be able to compare it to something else.

[Conal]

Properly sharpened that Blazen should handily out perform the Shun.Blazen are made from SG2 powdered steel and could easily take a 10 degree angle.The Shun on the other hand is VG10.I've tried it at 10 deg but the steel just wasn't up to the task.15 degrees seems to be the better option for a Shun.Wustof and Henkles are just awful with their factory edge of around 23 to 25.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Conal (log)

[paulraphael]

Properly sharpened that Blazen should handily out perform the Shun.Blazen are made from SG2 powdered steel and could easily take a 10 degree angle.The Shun on the other hand is VG10.I've tried it at 10 deg but the steel just wasn't up to the task.15 degrees seems to be the better option for a Shun.

This is exactly the kind of thing it takes some time to figure out. It's not just about the steel, but about how the manufacturer forged and heat treated it.

Also, what angles a knife will take depends on who's using it (and a bit on who's sharpening it). There are some who sharpen knives like my gyuto to 5° on a side. They must have flawless and delicate cutting techinque. I have a feeling that I'm too hamfisted to get away with it. I also doubt my sharpening skills are good enough ... if my margin of error is plus or minus a couple of degrees, then aiming for 5° is bound to be a disaster. Trying to balance caution and adventure, I go a little thinner and a little more asymmetrical with each sharpeinging session, and wait to find out how far I can go.

[whatsaMcGee]

You might want to consider getting the Blazen from JapaneseChefsKnife.com. They still sell the old Blazen, which is made of SRS15. SRS15 is very comparable to SG-2, as both are hardened to about 63 HRC. The JCK version is almost $60 cheaper and shipping is $7 (from Japan no less!) compared to $12-13 from EE.

Edit to say that I have owned both the EE and JCK versions and can personally vouch for the two being basically identical in performance.

Edited December 29, 2008 by whatsaMcGee (log)

[Fat Guy]

Blazen are made from SG2 powdered steel and could easily take a 10 degree angle.

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We are setting up the Edge Pro and aligning to the black dot in preparation for putting a 10-degree (each side) edge on the Blazen.

[Fat Guy]

We have learned respect for the Blazen's steel. It has taken almost an hour of gentle coaxing with the 120 stone to raise a burr on a 10-degree edge. Now we're going to run it through the rest of the sequence, which should be much more straightforward. Later, when it's time to prepare dinner, we'll chop some potatoes and such.

[Fat Guy]

As Conal suggested, the 10-degree angle made a huge difference. So much so that it immediately ended the experiment: the Blazen sharpened to a 10-degree angle is such a formidable cutting machine that it completely outclassed every other knife we tried. Which reinforces the point that evaluating knives out of the box with factory angles only tells you how knives cut out of the box with factory angles. So my current opinion is that for someone who is going to use factory angles there's little point in upgrading from a Shun to a Blazen, but if you're willing to put in time with the Edge Pro to redefine the edge of the Blazen it's a superior knife. How well that 10-degree edge will hold up is an open question. (We also didn't try sharpening the Shun to 10 degrees but we didn't think that was worth the time.)

[Octaveman]

A word about the Takeda. Like you said it was too short but it is with question on par with Blazen performance and bevel angle wise. Takeda's out of the box angles and sharpness are the most acute you'll ever find. If I recall correctly they are close to 7* per side on average for a gyuto. Too bad it wasn't longer as it certainly can't compete in this manner at this length with 270's. It makes for a completely different knife. If you had a 270, I think you would've found it a tie with the Blazen if not on top from a performance standpoint. But there's the issue with the traditional handle you didn't care for.

[Octaveman]

How well that 10-degree edge will hold up is an open question.

If it doesn't hold up well you can put a micro bevel on it to give it some strength. Many people will sharpen their knives very thin to increase it's performance then increase the angle 5* and make a few swipes giving it a micro bevel.

[Fat Guy]

The thinness, lightness, blade shape and handle design of the Takeda ruled it out, for me, as a general-purpose knife. So a bigger one probably wouldn't have appealed to me -- I'd have likely discarded it along with the Kumagoro. The small Takeda proved great for dicing onions and, later, for slicing tomatoes -- precision tasks that don't require much force, rock chopping or blade length. I would really like to have a Takeda in that size just for those tasks. (This particular knife actually came from Takeda at a knife show, so Takeda did extra sharpening at the time.)

[paulraphael]

Here's a test that shows off some of the less expected benefits of a sharp knife. I'm sure all the knives in Steven's arsenal would do well at this, but most of the knives I've seen in home kitchens and even pro knife bags would fail miserably.

All I did was slice up a pear. I didn't eat it, because it was mushy and flavorless (is anyone else having a hard time finding good ones this season?)

Instead of tossing it, I spread out the slices and let them sit at room temperature, to see how long it would take them to brown. Back before I learned to sharpen knives, pears would start to brown in under 10 minutes.

These are my slices after 36 hours:

They're drying out, and have just started browning around the edges. They're only really brown on the inside at the top and bottom, where I did a less than delicate job of coring.

The moral of the story is that sharp blades do less damage to your food. You'll serve meals with better texture, appearance, and flavor.

Some foods, like herbs, require excellent technique in addition to a sharp knife, but a monkey can slice a pear. This was all about the blade.

The knife used has a carbon steel edge sharpened freehand to around 9° per side, and thinned to a very accute angle behind the edge. Last sharpened a week and a half ago. It did all the prep for the holiday meals, and was touched up lightly on a steel afterwards.

[Starkman]

Say, I read somewhere on this site (if I wasn't misunderstanding the post) that it's not good to use glass something-or-other on Japanese knives? Would this have refered to a honing stone or a sharpening stone of some sort?

Thanks,

Starkman

[ojisan]

Say, I read somewhere on this site (if I wasn't misunderstanding the post) that it's not good to use glass something-or-other on Japanese knives? Would this have refered to a honing stone or a sharpening stone of some sort?

Thanks,

Starkman

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It refers to common folklore that you shouldn't have a glass of single malt Scotch in one hand while wielding a gyuto in the other.

[Octaveman]

Say, I read somewhere on this site (if I wasn't misunderstanding the post) that it's not good to use glass something-or-other on Japanese knives? Would this have refered to a honing stone or a sharpening stone of some sort?

Thanks,

Starkman

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What you remember probably was referring to glass cutting board or the like. Using a granite counter is also a no no. There are borosilicate (glass) honing rods, steel rods that are glass smooth. There is also a line of glass stones by Shapton but you don't sharpen them on the glass side. The glass provides the plate then they add abrasive to the other side. Although some have tried to sharpen on the smooth glass side, they get nowhere in their endeaver and wonder what their doing wrong. Cracks me up every time I hear a story like this.

[Starkman]

Say, I read somewhere on this site (if I wasn't misunderstanding the post) that it's not good to use glass something-or-other on Japanese knives? Would this have refered to a honing stone or a sharpening stone of some sort?

Thanks,

Starkman

←

What you remember probably was referring to glass cutting board or the like. Using a granite counter is also a no no. There are borosilicate (glass) honing rods, steel rods that are glass smooth. There is also a line of glass stones by Shapton but you don't sharpen them on the glass side. The glass provides the plate then they add abrasive to the other side. Although some have tried to sharpen on the smooth glass side, they get nowhere in their endeaver and wonder what their doing wrong. Cracks me up every time I hear a story like this.

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Gads! I wouldn't think of using a knife on glass! I thought, however, it did have something to do with a stone, so you've cleared that up.

In the interim—before I get a stone, that is—I'll just have to stick to using the bottom of a ceramic mug!

Thanks,

Starkman

[jsmeeker]

How did you decide on an angle for sharpening the Shun?

I've been drooling over this knife ever since I saw one a few years ago. You are using the Apex system to sharpen, so I'll assume that it is up to the task of sharpening the Shun properly (and hopefully, without too much effort or risk of damaging the knife). Did you use Chad's "An Edge in the Kitchen" for guidance?

[Fat Guy]

How did you decide on an angle for sharpening the Shun?

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With a magic marker, finding the factory angle and following that.

[nakji]

This has been an incredibly useful topic for me to read through. Sadly, I feel, it has almost talked me out of purchasing a Japanese knife. I live in Japan, and use a basic knife that I purchased at a home furnishing shop. I'm fairly happy with it, as I'm a beginner cook, but I had thought since I was living here, now would be a good time invest in a fine knife. I don't do any major butchering - I get the fishmonger and butcher to cut things down as I like; but I do dice a lot of onions, and generally chop a lot of vegetables. I'd like a tool that would make that task go faster and more efficiently. I can see by the pear photo above that a good knife clearly makes a difference in the final product. However, I can't see myself investing much in the way of sharpening technology right now, and extensively messing about with angles and such. Currently I use a hand-held sharpener, which sharpens my knife a little, but I'm sure not very well.

I'd like a basic knife, one for a beginner cook and sharpener. From Steven's assessment, I'm drawn to the Shun, and I see from Hiroyuki's post that it's sold under a different name here. Is it worth my while to upgrade, and what sort of knife would be suitable for me?

[Hest88]

Since Nakji has pulled this thread up again, I might as well butt in. ;-) I just got a Tojiro DP gyuto 270mm--my first Japanese knife (in part because it was well-priced) and designed to be my main chef's knife. I'm terribly lazy though, but I can't justify buying an Apex right now, so now I'm trying to figure out the most economical way for routine maintenance in between trips to a professional.

I'm used to sharpening my Chinese cleaver on a two-sided stone inherited from my mom, but I understand that may be too crude for this knife. From my research it looks like I should go for a HandAmerican rod but they seem to be out of stock. The only one currently listed on http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com is the Steatite Honing Rod which, I believe, is not the "glass smooth" one or the borosilicate one discussed in threads from a year ago. Is the steatite rod suitable or is there a substitute I should get (like those Idahone Ceramic Rods)?

[mtigges]

I can't justify buying an Apex right now, so now I'm trying to figure out the most economical way for routine maintenance in between trips to a professional.

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My recommendation, get a ceramic hone from: edge pro

[Hest88]

My recommendation, get a ceramic hone from: edge pro

Thanks! Done and done!

[KLwood]

We have learned respect for the Blazen's steel. It has taken almost an hour of gentle coaxing with the 120 stone to raise a burr on a 10-degree edge. Now we're going to run it through the rest of the sequence, which should be much more straightforward. Later, when it's time to prepare dinner, we'll chop some potatoes and such.

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He may want to consider the Diamond Hone available from Edgepro.. Its great for harder steels

[paulraphael]

I'm used to sharpening my Chinese cleaver on a two-sided stone inherited from my mom, but I understand that may be too crude for this knife.

I wouldn't assume that the stone is too crude. Are you happy with the results you get on your cleaver?

The ceramic rod is actually a cruder approach, because it takes off metal like a medium grit stone, but is more difficult than stones when it comes to keeping your bevel angle constant.

If the stone you have works but doesn't give as high a level of polish as you'd like, then you can supplement it with a finer grit waterstone.

The cermic rod can be good for touch ups between real sharpenings ... just be sure to use a VERY light touch. maybe one or two swipes with barely perceptible pressure on each side. Nothing like what you see french chefs doing on tv.

[Jon Savage]

With a copy of Japanese Kitchen Knives: Essential Techniques and Recipes arriving in my mailbox today I'm going to be looking into purchasing some traditional Japanese knives to compliment the Petty, Gyuto and Nakiri I already have.

I definately will need a Deba and a Yanagiba - possibly an Usuba as well anthough some Usuba tasks can certainly be accomplished with the Nakiri.

These seem to be fairly well regarded by some on KF but I'm hoping as always that Bob and others on EG will have some good ideas.

I don't need to buy them all at once and would like to keep under $150 each (seems like a challenge for a Deba).

Thanks

[scubadoo97]

I definately will need a Deba

Western yo-deba or Japanese wa-deba, single or double beveled?