Japanese Knives: The Big Topic

[Octaveman]

The rather popular Tojiro DP is Swedish Carbon core and SS clad,with western handle. Some Japanese country style blades have carbon core and iron clad,and those are always asian handle and mostly single bevel (except Nakiri)

One often overlooked thing is that acidic foods will degrade the edge on a carbon knife,possibly contributing to some chipping.  For the Tojiro,the edge is Carbon,so even though the sides are stainless it won't get used on acidic foods. We have Mexican dishes often so Peppers and onions..I'll use one of my SS blades.

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Actually, the description of the Tojiro DP is innacurate and always has been. The core is a high carbon stainless. It is not a true carbon steel core and will not form a patina. So feel free to use it on acidic foods. Even so, any degridation of the steel from acidic foods will be so unnoticable in daily use that sharpening your blade will remove more metal than the acid will. Also, unless you store your knives in salt water or in lemon juice, chips that occur in a blade are not due to using it on acidic food. There are so many factors that can significantly contribute to chipping but using your knife to cut lemons or any other acidic food is not one of them. But you don't have to take my word for it. You'll see soon enough.

Edited September 19, 2008 by Octaveman (log)

[Octaveman]

Any knife with a core,whether a Carbon core, VG 10 whatever won't usually be a single edge as that would not give much cladding on the flat side or the usual concave.

Um, not correct if I understand you correctly. Pretty much ALL single bevel (edge) construction of Japanese knives have a carbon steel edge with a softer steel laminate that is typically iron. There is even stainless "cored" single bevel blades laminated with a softer SS too. The softer laminated steel does come over the top to the back side as seen in this picture. Unless the blade is using one steel type, this type of construction is for all single-beveled blades.

[Octaveman]

Until you can get good results on the stones,don't worry about a strop. I don't even have an 8000 waterstone,and pretty much any of my knives are sharpest in the kitchen. My low $ Deba is much sharper than the house knives can get.....and the house knives only get decent if I sharpen them.

I agree. I've seen knive's from makers that were sharpened to 2,000 grit and they were extremely sharp. If it's not sharp by then, it never will be. There really isn't much need for higher grits to "sharpen" an edge. The higher grits are reserved for polishing. They of course refine the edge further over an edge sharpened to 2k but unless you're a very profient hand sharpener, the edge could become less durable. Remember, hand sharpening is 90% skill and 10% equipment.

[Chefb28]

Hi,

Been looking at investing (since they ain't cheap) in a Japanese hand-forged chef's knife. I already own some Global, Furi and Wusthof-Trident but like the look of these Japanese knives. The two I have looked at are made by Hattori and Kasumi. Any one have any experience with these? Anyone have any other recommendations? Or opinions on these Japanese forged (folded steel) chef's knives?

Thanks,

Aun

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I personally like my Misono ux-10 for my chef's knife(I don't use though to chop chicken bones, I use a house knife) also for as sashimi knives go I love Inox they're beautiful knife, you can find a decent one for around $200-300.00.

[Starkman]

Hello all,

In that I am looking to purchase a few kitchen knives, and in that Japanese knives are more recognized, can someone point me in the right direction as to how to obtain a crash course knowledge of these knives?

I've seen a lot of Japanese terms, styles and models mentioned, but it's very difficult to distinguish amoung these terms to know which is which. And then there's the different methods and manufacturing processes to consider.

Help! Where can I find information that is succint, to the point and won't take reading a 500 disseration just to get an idea what's going on in this field? (Internet resources area the welcomed priority, and then books.)

Thanks,

Starkman

[whatsaMcGee]

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/

[Octaveman]

http://www.korin.com/knives/knife_jp.php

http://www.korin.com/knives/knife_western.php

http://www.korin.com/knives/knife_steel.php

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/809833/

Edited December 27, 2008 by Octaveman (log)

[Peterh]

foodieforums.com has a lot of good information, too. Here's my try at a quick summary:

- Japanese knives tend to be made with harder steel. This lets them be thinner and ground with a more acute angle so that people may say they are "sharper".

- The harder steel lets them stay sharper longer. However, they can be chipped by cutting hard things like bones and frozen food.

- Sharpening is different. The harder steel requires different stones, and techniques and angles are different because of more acute or one-sided edges. Definitely don't use the thing on the back of the can opener.

- Traditional edges are one-sided, or single-bevel, like a chisel: \| , but many Japanese knives you can buy have a more western two-sided, double-bevel edge: \/. I have trouble with the single bevel. It seems strange to me. I'm sure someone who grew up using single-bevel knives would find double-bevel strange and difficult.

- There are lots of purely traditional Japanese knife shapes. I don't understand Japanese cooking techniques enough to even try to explain them.

- There are some westernized knife shapes that are more familiar to me. They still have different names:

Gyuto = "cow sword", closest to western chef's knife

Petty = a "petite" knife that can be used like a small chef's knife, large paring, or utility knife

Santoku = "three virtues" is the darling of TV chefs. It's sort of a like a Guyto or chef's knife but not as pointy. It's supposed to be pointy enough for coring, but also act as a slicer and chopper.

I also like the Nikiri, which is meant for slicing vegetables. It's shaped a little like a knife-like cleaver -- longer than a cleaver, but not as tall from spine to edge.

[dougery]

Wow...

The answer to this question can be quite daunting. The link Octaveman and Whatsamcgee offered to Knifeforums.com is the best resource, but you really need to take your time when going through there. Most posters are pretty good about being objective and accurate, but just be careful, there are some hacks out there as well that could steer you in the wrong direction.

To help point you in the right direction, I would recommend doing research on two types of knives:

* The western style "gyutou" (Western style chefs knife with an asian influence, most visible feature is the lack of a bolster).

* The "petty" knife (about 5" blade length, used as a utility or paring)

Once you've done some research on these styles you can branch out into more specialized knives such as the honesuki (boning knife).

There are so many different types of steel, it could be mind boggling. Some steels can be prone to discoloration or rusting and require higher maintenance than most people expect. Be sure to do ample research into the types of steel.

If you are just looking to get your feet wet without spending too much, Tojiro (found on Korin.com) makes an excellent gyutou. It has a hard high carbon steel core/blade, which is sandwiched between layers of stain resistant steel. These are really good knives for a great price. One note, some reports of inconsistent quality have popped up here or there, but Korin does a great job of backing up their products. Others in EG have written about Togiharu knives, but I'm not too familiar with this line. The steel is a little softer and I prefer my gyutous with a higher HRC (hardness rating).

Welcome to the wonderful world of Japanese knives! WARNING: They are an addiction!

Edited December 27, 2008 by dougery (log)

[dougery]

BTW,

Here is another link to a reliable dealer. Have bought a few Hattori knives through them and their service is excellent. This site also has an excellent tutorial on sharpening:

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/products.html

Japanese knife sharpening is an art form in itself. If you're not familiar with Japanese sharpening stones, I would strongly recommend looking into getting some and practice up on some of your lower quality knives (or buying some at a thrift shop to practice getting the right angles and techniques. Steel quality/hardness won’t be the same, but you can work on your basics). It will require some patience and practice but the end results will easily surpass the results you would get from mechanized sharpeners or sending them to your local cutlery shop. This place has a good selection of quality stones, not to mention some great woodworking tools (Festool power tools, Damascus chisels, etc.!) Another great retailer to do business with.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?s=...r&dept_id=13238

[mrsadm]

Please take your time in picking out a Japanese knife; there is much to know and folks can have really different preferences. If you just want one knife, the recommendation of a Tojiro gyuto is excellent; you won't spend too much money on it, either. Never use a honing steel on it; you can use a ceramic steel however. And learn to sharpen it as well yourself; if you take it to a sharpening place that uses a grinder you can ruin the knife. Good luck!

[Starkman]

Thanks very much for the input, folks. I greatly appreciate it.

Starkman

WAIT!

One more question...

per doughery's statement, "If you're not familiar with Japanese sharpening stones . . . ," I take it the stones with which one sharpens Japanese knives (be they single or dougle bevelled) are NOT the same as ones with which western knives are sharpened?

Thanks again.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Starkman (log)

[ojisan]

An xlnt wealth of info is Chad Ward's book "An Edge in the Kitchen:

http://www.amazon.com/Edge-Kitchen-Ultimat..._pr_product_top

The knifeforums.com site has a wealth of info, but it's daunting to wade thru it, and can be confusing to read between the lines of posts by some of the (opinionated) knife geeks. Having said that, knifeforums.com is where I got my education (including trading posts w/ Mr. Ward), and they are a friendly and forgiving group. Before then, I thought my Dexter cleaver was God's gift to cooking; I now own REALLY good knives (all Japanese-made and all inexpensive) and have even foisted more onto my children as birthday & Xmas gifts.

FWIW, I've purchased all my knives from the aforementioned japanesechefsknife.com (internet commerce at its finest), but Korin also has a solid reputation.

[ojisan]

One more question...

per doughery's statement, "If you're not familiar with Japanese sharpening stones . . . ," I take it the stones with which one sharpens Japanese knives (be they single or dougle bevelled) are NOT the same as ones with which western knives are sharpened?

Thanks again.

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See what happens? He's already slipping into the dark side....

[Starkman]

See what happens? He's already slipping into the dark side....

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I am not. I'm not. No, I'm not . . . I'm . . .

My, it's dark in here!

[Peterh]

What's the deal with stones? Most people recommend using Japanese water stones to sharpen. These must be soaked well in water before using. As you sharpen, a slurry forms as you actually erode the stone, wearing it down. I think the advantage of these stones is twofold: 1) they have enough hardness to make an impression on harder steel in Japanese knives, and 2) the erosion or wearing down exposes fresh grit that can continue to do work on your edge. The sharpening stones I grew up with were either coarse and would cut, or fine and wouldn't really cut much. Japanese water stones seem to be able to cut aggressively even with a fine grit.

This means that your stone will start to get "dished" as the middle wears down. You'll need to flatten it again with either a flattening stone or a sheet of wet/dry sandpaper over plate glass.

There are a few different brands of stones like this, including Norton, King, etc. I bought a combination stone (one side fine, the other very fine) from a woodworking store. It's sold as a good stone to use for chisels, planes, and other cutting tools. They'd work great for western knives, too. I think the actual technique would be about the same, just a different angle.

(BTW, I'm very happy with the Tojiro Gyuto I bought from JapaneseChefsKnife.com, even though it was a lower end product for them. Unfortunately, they can't sell them any more.)

Edited December 28, 2008 by Peterh (log)

[Starkman]

Well, I know that I'd like a Gyuto, a 9 incher if they make one. I'd also like a Santuko, but if the Gyuto performs as well on veggies, then I'd pass. Really, I like the all-around aspect of a Gyutoo. I don't need top of the line, and I'd like a CS/SS combo.

I'd like something, too, like a Deba, something that can handle rougher cutting that would put the Gyuto in jeapordy.

As to handles, well, I hate those slick, small plastic kind. I'd like something with a bit of a bite in it to grab a hold of. I've never tired a Japanese handle, so I don't know how they feel.

I've seen ceramic "steels" mentioned to be better than a standard steel, so I'd probably want something along this line as well.

That's about it.

Man, have I been doing the reading, too! I'm learning!

Starkman

[paulraphael]

I'd suggest just getting a gyuto. It will do most things. Get comfortable with it, and then decide what else (if anything) you need. I can't imagine why anyone would have both a gyuto and a santoku, but people do a lot of things that boggle my imagination ...

You need sharpening stones. A good knife is just an ornament without them. It won't even be close to its potential when it's new out of the box. You can start simple, like with a two sided combo stone. By the time you wear it out, maybe sooner, you'll have an idea of what other stones you might want.

Steels are controvercial. I like them, some don't. I find they greatly increase the time between visits to the stones. Fine grained ceramic ones are good, as are smooth ones like the ones sold by handamerican.

The knife has few magic powers of its own; it's a vehicle for your technique ... both cutting technique and sharpening technique. Even if you get an inexpensive japanese knife, like a togiharu, expect to do a lot of growing with it.

When your sharpening and cutting techniques develop, the handle will become irrelevant. You'll hardly touch the handle. Any time you find yourself gripping or slipping, it will be an indication that you're doing something wrong.

I used to be very picky about knife handles. Now that I've started learning better ways to use the knives, I don't notice them anymore. The exception is with things like boning and butchering knives, which you have to grab in a lot of different ways, and use in a more brutish fashion. And which tend to get wet and greasy. With these I like wood handles ... but they don't have to be fancy.

[Jon Savage]

What he said...

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A 240 mm gyuoto, and maybe a petty is all most of us mere mortals need.

[Fat Guy]

I've been thinking about possibly making a couple of new knife purchases. My friend Sean has acquired a diverse collection of kitchen knives over the course of a multi-year obsession. So we thought we'd take the opportunity this weekend to go through all his knives and make some comparisons. Here's the knife collection:

To break it down into two groups, going from left to right:

1. First two Chinese cleavers. Sean's friend brought these back for him from China so there aren't a lot of details available about them. This one is for vegetables.

2. And this is a Chinese cleaver for bone breaking and other heavy lifting.

3. The Ryusen Blazen gyuto in the 270mm size, from Epicurean Edge

4. Global 10.5" chef's knife

5. Henckels 4-star 10" chef's knife

6. Kumagoro hammered-finish gyuto, 240mm

7. Shun classic 8" chef's knife (Granton edge)

8. Henckels Professional S 8" chef's knife

9. Kasumi 180mm santoku

10. Takeda 180mm -- this is either a gyuto or a banno funayuki-bocho, we're not 100% sure and the shapes are quite similar

11. Wusthof Classic 9" slicer

12. Mac SB105 10.5" bread knife

13. Kikuichi Carbon Elite 240mm sujihiki

14. Henckels 4-star 8" bread knife

15. Another Henckels knife. As you might have deduced, Sean started his knife odyssey with a set of Henckels knives and has slowly retired them.

16. Tojiro DP honesuki 150mm

17&18. More Global knives

19. Shun paring knife (3.5")

20-23. Assorted paring and utility knives

24. A Japanese nikiri of unknown provenance, purchased in Asia

25-27. Henckels four-star santoku, utility and cleaver (up top)

Last night we performed some preliminary analysis and decided that there was no way to test every knife systematically without devoting an unreasonable amount of time to the project (and wasting a lot of produce). So using various criteria we narrowed the field to six general-purpose knives (well, five and we also threw in the nikiri for fun).

So that's knives 3 (RyuSen Blazen, $319.95 at Epicurean Edge), 4 (Global, $136 at EE), 6 (Kumagoro, $157.95 at EE), 7 (Shun, $128.95 at EE), 10 (Takeda, somewhere in the neighborhood of $210) and 24 (unknown Japanese nikiri, cheap).

This morning, our cooking project was making hash out of leftover prime rib plus potatoes, onions, garlic and parsley. These ingredients presented a good range of slicing and dicing opportunities, which actually turned out to be important in evaluating the knives.

In order to eliminate as many variables as possible, each knife (except the Blazen, which was already quite sharp, though later we sharpened it anyway) was freshly sharpened to Sean's best approximation of factory angles with the Edge Pro . . .

. . . and stropped with this thing:

Of course sharpening them all to identical angles may have been another way to go. Knife comparisons are fraught with this sort of uncertainty. For example, Cook's Illustrated I believe tests knives new out of the factory box. That makes sense for people who don't sharpen knives, but it also gives an inflated rating to a knife like a Forschner that comes extremely sharp from the factory but is only going to stay that way for a short while.

We started with about half a 20-pound sack of potatoes. (We didn't use them all in the hash!)

We very quickly gave up on the Global knife and the Japanese nikiri. They simply weren't in the same league as the rest of the knives. We used them a little more later on but it was immediately clear that they couldn't compete.

I had high hopes for the Kumagoro hammered-finish gyuto. And maybe if the task at hand had been making thin slices of meat, fish or tomatoes I'd have had a higher opinion of this knife. But for our tasks it was just awkward. It's a relatively thin knife and quite large, and the handle is offset more than I like. It's clearly a great blade but as a kitchen knife it didn't work for me.

I was initially disappointed with the Takeda gyotu. It wasn't long enough to do a good job cutting the potatoes lengthwise, especially with a pinch grip subtracting an inch or so from the usable portion of the blade. And I found the blade shape awkward for that task.

Both the Shun and the Blazen absolutely excelled at cutting potatoes. The extra weight of their blades really helped make chopping potatoes easy. And I liked the Shun D-shaped handle and the Blazen's typical Western handle better than the Japanese octagonal handles (though this matters less if you use a pinch grip).

When it came time to dice an onion, however, the Takeda made a huge comeback. It was by far the best knife for this task. Its thin, small blade made it very easy to cut thin slices in each direction.

The other knives were all good at the onion task, and the Shun was better than any other knife in the running (I tried a whole bunch of them) but the Takeda was in its own league. I had not anticipated that there would be such a difference in usability from task to task. I guess I should have known that was going to happen, but I didn't.

For the remaining tasks -- mincing garlic, slicing and dicing the cold leftover beef and chopping parsley -- the larger, heavy knives (the Shun and the Blazen being the only ones surviving until this point in the experiment) were best. The Shun was surprisingly competitive with the Blazen, given that the Blazen is a much more expensive knife and that most every knife aficionado will tell you the Blazen is a better knife. I was nonetheless very pleased with the Shun in most every way.

The hash came out really well, by the way.

As a side note, using the Henckels knives side-by-side with these better knives is very revealing. The Henckels knives are just not playing on the same field. The only advantage I can think of in favor of a Henckels knife is that you can beat on it more freely than you can a harder (and therefore more brittle) Japanese knife. Still, the Shun and Blazen were plenty beefy, it seemed, for long hours of heavy chopping. I didn't have my Wusthof chef's knife with me for this but I think the Wusthofs are better than the Henckels knives -- but still not on par with something like the Shun.

On the one hand, I felt I learned a lot from the experiment. On the other hand, it didn't give me the one-knife answer I was looking for. If I had to choose one all-around knife, taking cost into account, I'd choose the Shun. But I'd rather also have the Blazen and the Takeda. And if I had both of those I might not need the Shun as much. But it would be a much more expensive proposition. I think I see a Shun in my future.

[Country]

Thanks for the report FG. I actually made a roast beef hash last night out of leftover beef from Christmas (a beautiful 4# piece of boneless rib; plus potatoes, carrot (1#), onions, and garlic - all homegrown - and a little worcestershire sauce. By coincidence, I even cooked my hash in the same All-Clad pan you used. Well, not literally.

Anyhow, I used all Wusthof's - 10" Chef's, 8" carver, and the little 2 1/2" trimming knife for getting much of the fat trimmed out (all Classics). It went pretty well, and the hash came out good.

So my question is, since you mentioned your Wusthof, do you think it would be worthwhile for someone with a limited budget to buy one of those Shun knives?

PS. How did you like the handles on those knives?

Edited December 28, 2008 by Country (log)

[Fat Guy]

So my question is, since you mentioned your Wusthof, do you think it would be worthwhile for someone with a limited budget to buy one of those Shun knives?

I think there's little question that a Shun is a step up from a Wusthof Classic. The only arguable advantages I can think of on the Wusthof side are that 1- they're probably a bit more resilient when it comes to something like chopping through bones, and 2- they're surely easier to sharpen (though they have bolsters, which is a disadvantage when sharpening). As to whether that's worth the price of a Shun when you already have a Wusthof, well, I'm grappling with that very question myself. Certainly, you can have a long and happy cooking life with just Wusthof knives. But the Shun knives are better.

PS. How did you like the handles on those knives?

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I don't like the traditional Japanese octagonal handles very much. I like the D-shaped handle on the Shun a lot, though I think Western handles are the best. Handle preference are really personal, though. Also, it matters how you grip your knife. If you use a pinch grip the handle becomes much less relevant. If you grip the actual handle the shape of the handle is more important.

[Starkman]

Thanks a lot for for the information!

Starkman

[nickrey]

Thanks for the very informative post. What a knife collection!

When looking for a Japanese knife, I was very attracted to the Shun but being a left hander in a right hander's world quickly found that the knife was not set up for left handed use (I know you can order left handed versions of some Japanese knives but did not choose to take this option).

As a consequence, I went with a Kasumi Chef's knife that can be used either left or right-handed and have been very happy with it.

Further to your point on grip preference when I started using the Kasumi, it felt awkward after using Western grips for many years. After adapting my grip slightly through trial and error it seems to feel much more natural that the Western grips ever did.

[Hiroyuki]

Thanks for the thread. Silly me, I hadn't realized until I read it that "Shun" is a brand of the Japanese manufacturer, Kaijirushi (better known as Kai overseas?). After a few searches, I also learned that this brand is for export only, and is not available in Japan. I don't mind because other cheaper brands of that manufacturer are good enough for me. I have two Kaijirushi knives, a deba and a sashimi slicer.