Japanese Knives – What to Buy?

miles717 · March 19, 2008

I can spend over 150 for the gyuto...seeing as i spent 250 for the deba i figure i can and should spend AT LEAST the same amount for the gyuto (the knife im going to use most). im going to get the money i need for that from the budget i set aside for the stones (i set aside 200...hope that's enough)
thanks for the link....thats the knife my chef's got! the vg10 -- i see it scored high on his review.
thanks for the help bob
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Bob's correct about the Hiromoto. It's hard to beat, especially at the price point. If you strongly prefer stainless for your main knife, then that changes the equation a bit.

I have the Masamoto 240 gyuto. It's an excellent knife. I don't use mine as often as I once did as I've mostly changed over to using PM steel blades when I want something stainless. I'd go with the Masamoto or give an Ikeda or Blazen from EE a spin. Any one of them will be a very solid performer.

Edited March 19, 2008 by miles717 (log)

WiscoNole · March 20, 2008

I just ate at a sushi bar earlier and the chef took the salmon off the skin using a gyuto...Was it his skill or is it actually flexible?
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I don't know what kind of salmon you're buying, but the ones I get don't need to be skinned with a flexible knife. :laugh: :raz:

Octaveman · March 21, 2008

I can spend over 150 for the gyuto...seeing as i spent 250 for the deba i figure i can and should spend AT LEAST the same amount for the gyuto (the knife im going to use most). im going to get the money i need for that from the budget i set aside for the stones (i set aside 200...hope that's enough)
thanks for the link....thats the knife my chef's got! the vg10 -- i see it scored high on his review.
thanks for the help bob

Okay, well, going stainless opens up a whole new set of options. His Masamoto is is decent for sure but there are many other knives made with VG10 as well. Even if scoring high on Fred's review, there are great knives that have since come onto the market. Honestly, I've seen many other chefs use Masamoto knives. When asked why they chose that brand they either said it was what the restaurant supplier had or it's the only brand they heard of. There are so many other knives that are better IMHO.

Nenox S-1 (this one will blow all the others out of the water it's that good)

If you want to spend some decent cash on a great gyuto...the nenox with out a doubt should be your choice...without a doubt. I have the slicer in the S-1 line and it's an incredible knife. If you're thinking of spending close to that amount it would behouve you to find the extra money to buy it when you're so close to affording it. Seriously.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Octaveman (log)

Octaveman · March 21, 2008

I've bought knives now...
I got the slicer, paring & deba -- the ones you've recommended.

Cool! Did you get the 270mm slicer and the 165mm deba?

The Japanese place a higher emphasis on the blade than the handle. A handle might have some very slight imperfections that vary from knife to knife. In lower priced lines like the Kikuichi Elite this might happen. You many not even have any problems with it. If you get the knife and it looks aweful, tell the website you bought it from that you'd like to return it for a different one with a better made handle. It very thing happened to me once with my Kikuichi. The retailer was very nice about making the return and the new knife I got was flawless.

aaguirrejr · March 21, 2008

I've bought knives now...
I got the slicer, paring & deba -- the ones you've recommended.
Cool! Did you get the 270mm slicer and the 165mm deba?
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I got the 240 slicer & 165 deba. my chef just gave me a raise yesterday (1 year now at the place im working at) so im thinking of buying that gelstain filet knife too...not sure yet, just thinking.

and abuot the blazen chef's you recommended, that's combo steel, right?

A special-alloy high carbon steel powder is then forge bonded to each surface of the blade. Finally, this core material is forge-welded between two layers of #18 chrome stainless steel and tempered to Rc 63.

if so, that might be the one ill be getting...the nenox looks interesting, but when i saw the price (380?!?!) i didn't read on lol

Edited March 21, 2008 by aaguirrejr (log)

Octaveman · March 21, 2008

Technically it's a combo steeled knife but the cladding and the core are both stainless so it's considered a stainless knife.

BTW, just to clarify some of the terms we're using. When a knife has a cladding like the one's we've been looking at the term for this type of construction is called a Warikomi construction. It doesn't matter what materials are used. The "combo" term I've been using here is just to refer to a stainless/carbon steel blade since you either have stainless (stain resistant) or you have carbon steel or you have both (combo).

Powdered steel is not necessarily of type of steel but rather the process for making the steel. This process gives better control over the various elements that make up the steel thus making the steel stronger than if traditionally forged. Most of these powdered steels are used to make tools that cut and shape other steels/tools so it's very strong stuff. That also means it will be tougher to sharpen (meaning it will take longer to get the edge you'd want). That's why I recommend the Hiromoto because pure Japanese carbon is great to sharpen and the super blue that is in the AS line gives it a toughness that is not present in other carbon steels. A standard carbon steel blade will be easier to sharpen than the AS but the AS will be easier to sharpn than powdered tool steels.

Another thing with tool steels from comments made by pro's is that the edge they put on it will not last long but the edge that the knife settles on after that lasts a very long time. It's uncertain how that final edge compares to carbon steel as it probably comes down to personal opinion but it's probably quite comparable.

Again, all great knives but with very different properties and nuances that differentiate themselves from one another. If you're going back and forther between the Hiromoto and the Blazen the choice could easily come down to carbon steel edge or stainless edge. If you wipe down your blade all the time then you won't have to worry about it rusting from sitting around wet or dirty. Many chefs will choose SS because of that alone. They don't want to worry about weather they've cleaned/dried the blade all the time. The AS is a great knife though but so is the Blazen.

Just food for thought.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Octaveman (log)

aaguirrejr · March 22, 2008

I might have to go stainless...I dont want my choices to be restricted due to blade choice and i don't want to go carbon...

Plus these knives are going to be for work. If they're going to have any affect on the food, I can't have that. And I usually place my knives in hot water until I use them.

Edited March 23, 2008 by aaguirrejr (log)

Zeemanb · March 22, 2008

I'm having a real Ron "Miracle Product" Popeil moment........ today is an absolutely PERFECT day for doing some BBQ in KC, and I have to admit that trimming and prepping a whole brisket has never been my favorite chore. This is the first time I have had to do it since I got my 8" Shun, and as I was trimming the top of the brisket and carving out the little nooks and crannies of that rock-hard beef fat, I felt like I was in one of those commercials....."That's right folks! This knife has even been tested against actual light sabres and has outperformed them EVERY TIME! And how much did YOU pay for your last light sabre? Well, the good news is THIS little baby is just a fraction of that!".

Seriously, this thing has cut my prep time in half. I DID have my first "close call". I knew it was coming sooner or later, so it's good to have it out of the way. You know the moment of which I speak...where the knife makes very light contact with your thumb and there is that one or two seconds of frozen fear as you wonder "how bad is it going to be?". Thankfully, only the top layer of skin or so was shaved off, so lesson learned. Fearful respect will be my motto going forward.

Toufas · March 25, 2008

would you use a spyderco sharpmaker 204 to sharpen this: http://www.korin.com/product.php?pid=332&df=knife ? which angle and which stone would be ideal?

Edited March 25, 2008 by Toufas (log)

Octaveman · March 25, 2008

So, are you asking because you already have the Sharpmaker and you want to get a knife or you already have the knife and you're looking to buy the sharpmaker?

miles717 · March 25, 2008

would you use a spyderco sharpmaker 204 to sharpen this: http://www.korin.com/product.php?pid=332&df=knife ? which angle and which stone would be ideal?
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Bob, let me handle this. (I love a good Office Space reference... :biggrin: )

Toufas,

Ideally, you should learn how to sharpen with a couple waterstones. They'll do a better job and you'll gain a better understanding of your knife in the process.

That said, if you really don't want to invest in stones and the time to learn how to use them, you can use a sharpmaker.

It's not the best method, but you probably can get by with it if you occasionally have it professionally sharpened by someone with an understanding of how Japanese knives differ from Euro style knives. Dave Martell at Japaneseknifesharpening.com or would be my suggestion if you want to go in that direction.

If you were to use the sharpmaker, I would use the flats only starting with the gray medium and finishing with the white fine stones. I don't recall what Tojiro uses as the factory angle, but paint the edge of the knife with a sharpie marker and try the 30 degree setting first. If it looks close, stick with that, otherwise switch to the 40 degree setting.

I'd buy a couple waterstones though. Seriously. It's a far better choice.

Octaveman · March 26, 2008

Funny, Miles, thanks for covering. :laugh: I looked at the post what must have been three or four times and that's all I could come up with. Didn't know how to answer it. :unsure: Had to start somewhere. :biggrin:

aaguirrejr · March 26, 2008

My quest for knives is complete and I'm now need stones and steels. More help would be much appreciated. This is what I've decided on:

Hattori KF Gyuto, $255

Kikuichi Slicer, $105

Shun Paring, $45

Korin Ginsanko Deba, $244

That's maybe around $700 incl. shipping. The budget I've got for the stone(s) & steel(s) is 300.

Go!

Octaveman · March 26, 2008

Without question...Shapton Pro series stones is your best bet for standard sharpening. They do not need to be soaked like most other whetstones. Just keep the surface wet and your good to go. For rebeveling, chip repair and thinning the DMT DiaSharp stones are your best bet. You will need all of these things eventually but can start out with the stones that have an asterisk.

Regarding the steel...it's not needed. With the stones you will get and the fact that they don't need soaking you can do what I do. I whip out the 5k and do a few light swipes on both sides and I'm done. If you INSIST on wanting one there is only one steel I would recommend. The Hand American glass smooth steel with micro grooves. It does a great job from what I hear from users and from Dave at JKS.com. For a home user though, I don't see the urgency to get one.

There is one more thing I would add. It's a how-to DVD on learning how to sharpen Japanese knives. Dave Martell from the sharpening site below has produced a DVD that is outstanding. I have taken instruction from him personally and can attest to his ability to teach and his knowledge on the subject. Dave also does sharpen knives professionally as that's his job. I highly recommend it.

Japanese Knife Sharpening.com

Glass smooth steel Item #11 - $55

Sharpening DVD - $45*

The Japan Woodworker

Shapton Pro Series

1,000 grit - $49*

2,000 grit - $56

5,000 grit - $74*

And the ultimate polishing/finishing stone:

Naniwa 10,000 grit super polishing stone - $90

Craftsmanstudio.com

DMT Diasharp bench stones

D8XX (120 grit) - $63

D8C (325) - $36*

D8F (600) - $35*

Stone holder - $12.50*

Total of stones, etc that have an asterisk is $252. You will be completely fine for quite a while with buying just these 4 stones, the stone holder and the DVD.

Why did I leave out the others?

I left out the Shapton 2k because I wanted to explain why it's there so you can make the decision whether to buy it or not. Grit is measured by particle size in Microns. The bigger the micron, the bigger the particle size, the lower the grit. Think of it just like sandpaper and you'll understand. The Microns in the lower grits make huge jumps from stone to stone while the microns in the higher grits make smaller jumps. Look at THIS chart. As you can see the difference in particle size from a 1k to a 5k is huge Whereas the difference between a 1k and 2k is only cut by half (and the 2k to 5k jump is siginificantly reduced as well). What does this mean to you? One of the biggest reasons for progressing though a series of stones is to remove the scratches left by the prior stone. If the jump in microns is too big, those scratches will not be completely removed and your bevels hazy. This is what is involved to polish your bevels and subsequently refine the very edge of your blade further and further by reducing the ridges (making the edge less and less toothy). Bottom line is that you can get away without the 2k but I recommend it. It certainly is within your budget.

At some point in the near future you will demand more from your knives and will want to get that edge you've never seen before. That's when the Naniwa 10kcomes into the picture. An incredible stone**. I use it to polish and put that final edge on all my knives. The Diasharp D8XX will also be needed at some point when it comes time to rebevel your knives (aka thin them out) back to where they were when you got them. That though won't be for a while.

You will need to keep your stones flat in order to sharpen your knives properly. Many people including myself use the Diasharp D8XX for this as this stone is made from metal and is machined dead flat. You can spend extra money for a dedicated flattening stone but not really needed. Only use this stone up to the 2k though. To flatten the 5k stone, you can use the D8F and to flatten the Naniwa you can use the Shapton 1k.

**An incredible stone for sure but not one to be taken lightly. It's a very soft stone and easy to gouge. I highly recommend this baby but I would suggest not using it until your proficient with your regular stones (4-6 months). Seriously, It requires someone will enough skill sharpening to use it or you'll end up cutting into it left and right and ruining the stone.

Octaveman · March 26, 2008

p.s. your choices for your knives are outstanding. Man I love spending other peoples money (well, okay, mine too but there are consequences). :biggrin:

Toufas · March 26, 2008

i have the knives (well they are in the post office ) and i have a waterstone from korin, but no matter what i do i dont seem to get it to sharpen properly. and the youtube videos are not that helpful as most of them dont show the same sharpening technique.

i am one of those people that "see and learn" and not read and learn (i am stupid in other words)

Octaveman · March 26, 2008

Toufas, you need to get the sharpening DVD from David Martell I linked in my post above. It does a very thorough job of explaining how to sharpen. I strongly recommend it. Also, you will need to get another stone or two. Which stone do you have now?

dougal · March 26, 2008

My quest for knives is complete and I'm now need stones and steels. More help would be much appreciated.
...
... The budget I've got for the stone(s) & steel(s) is $300.
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... i have a waterstone from korin, but no matter what i do i dont seem to get it to sharpen properly. ...
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Hmmmm.

It may be pure coincidence, but aaguirrejr's $300 budget does exactly match an EdgePro Apex Kit 3 (which includes a diamond 'steel' and much else) ...

EDIT its $200, but £150 ($300) by the time it gets to the UK... sorry!

http://edgeproinc.com/

And Toufas might be interested in the video there, the comments here (with a few notable exceptions :hmmm: ) and Chad's comments in the mega eGullet Sharpening Tutorial -

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=26036

:cool:

Edited March 26, 2008 by dougal (log)

Octaveman · March 26, 2008

It may be pure coincidence, but aaguirrejr's $300 budget does exactly match an EdgePro Apex Kit 3 (which includes a diamond 'steel' and much else) ...
http://edgeproinc.com/
And Toufas might be interested in the video there, the comments here (with a few notable exceptions ) and Chad's comments in the mega eGullet Sharpening Tutorial -
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=26036

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Well, if he gets the edgepro, then the video explaining how to use the edge pro would be advisable. Then you will be well on your way to producing acceptable or awesome results depending on your perspective. Chad's tutorial is good indeed. There are plenty of articles on how to sharpen knives and when I got started I read and re-read Chad's article. I even printed it out so I could read it and have it handy to refer to when I needed. I also joined two knife forums to read about how to sharpen my knives. Problem was I needed a visual pictures alone could not provide for me. I asked questions at these knife forums and until I actually bought Korin's DVD, I hadn't any idea what they were saying. I tried real hard but just couldn't quite get what people were saying. Korin's video is what got me started and it did the just that. Dave's video on the other hand is more complete when it comes to sharpening any kind of knife on whetstones and it's been just recently available. Hence the recommendation over the video by Korin. And if you get whetstones, the Edgepro video will be useless.

(with a few notable exceptions )

Curious to know which one's you are referring to.

aaguirrejr · March 26, 2008

Up until now, Bob's really helped me and I've gone too far now to not listen to his advice about stones and whatnot. These knives will be for professional use. I'll be bringing them with me to work and I'll be sharpening them at home.

With that out of the way, would this edgepro thing be better for me or will Bob stand by his original advice? I checked the site out and saw that the edgepro apex 3 kit is $200.

Octaveman · March 26, 2008

Up until now, Bob's really helped me and I've gone too far now to not listen to his advice about stones and whatnot. These knives will be for professional use. I'll be bringing them with me to work and I'll be sharpening them at home.
With that out of the way, would this edgepro thing be better for me or will Bob stand by his original advice? I checked the site out and saw that the edgepro apex 3 kit is $200.
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Read the Edgepro thread and you decide.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=104022

I still stick to my guns...waterstones all the way baby! I'm not dissing the Edgepro. I've never used it. Everything that I've read is that it is a good way to quickly sharpen your knives taking out the guessing game of proper angles and such by hand. I may be wrong but I don't think the Edgepro can sharpen single beveled Japanese knives like a yanagiba or deba. It's also my understanding that you can scratch your knife too but there are fixes for that. It's also my understanding that you cannot get as acute of an angle on the Apex as you can stones. But to get those acute angles you want on a Japanese knife, it takes some practice on the stones. The edgepro doesn't take a whole lot of brain power or skill to get good results. I've never personally seen a knife sharpened with the Apex so in all 100% honesty I have no clue whether the Apex is better or not. But based on what people have told me and of what I've read on knife forums, stones are the way to go. The Apex is a foolproof way to sharpen your knives. Put the knife in the grip, attach the stone, set the angle and away you go. Any monkey can do it. :raz:

But this thread is not about a discussion of stones versus the Apex. Aqquirrejr inquired about what stones to get and I answered that question. Toufas already has a stone so why would I say throw it away and spend $200 on an apex?

Also, now that I see his knives will be for work, I would say getting that HA glass steel would be a good idea. I guess I never realized it previously. You could certainly still use your stone at work to hone but the steel would be quicker at work. Use a very light touch as all you want to do is realign the edge back to where it was. As long as the edge itself remains intact (didn't get damaged) it will be just like new after steeling. Even if micro chips appear, the knife is still very usable. I get chips in my knives often because I like my edges thin. I don't bother with removing them until the whole knife gets dull. why remove all that metal if you don't have to. But then again, it's for work so you'll probably be sharpening every night anyway.

aaguirrejr · March 26, 2008

I checked out the EdgePro video on YouTube and it seems simple enough. Though if I used stones, I'd think that I can probably get a sharper edge on them than I would with the pre-set angles of EdgePro....And i did get that deba.

I guess I'll read some more and think it over.

I just watched the video on YT and it seems you can sharpen a single-beveled knife with the edgepro. The question is whether the EP can get it as sharp as whetstones.

Edited March 26, 2008 by aaguirrejr (log)

Toufas · March 26, 2008

http://www.nisbets.co.uk/product_images/zoom/D139.jpg

i have that, and i am getting King Sharpening Stone - Medium #1000 on the package from korin

since i had to pay $84 extra for the knives due to customs i am trying to keep costs as low as possible atm

i was watching this guys videos : http://www.youtube.com/user/cutlerylover and i was interested in the spyderco. also the korin knife i bought is "westernized" from what i understand

Octaveman · March 26, 2008

Sorry, toufas, can you give me more info on the stone you have now? What are the grit sizes? King is a good brand so no worries with that one. Yikes! You guys DO have to pay steep import fees. That sucks. Also, what do you mean westernized?

Everyone develops their own technique for sharpening so I can see how you might be a little confused by watching various people. I think it would be better for you to pick one and work with that. Be it Korins DVD or Dave's DVD. I know Dave's DVD is more thorough so you will be able to learn a lot from it. Plus he's a real nice guy and will answer any questions you would have via email or by phone if you want to spend the long distance charges.

Actually Dave has some video's that people posted a while ago. This is not what the DVD but it comes from a get together of knife nuts with dave giving a lecture/seminar on how to sharpen. The DVD is as professional as one would expect. Dave is a member here at Egullet too. Maybe he'll see this and chime in.

dougal · March 26, 2008

... Though if I used stones, I'd think that I can probably get a sharper edge on them than I would with the pre-set angles of EdgePro...
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There might be a couple of misunderstandings there.

One is about the nature of the EdgePro's 'pre-set' angles.

As Chad wrote in the tutorial: - "The {EdgePro's} angle guide is continuously adjustable for any angle, with marks at 10, 15, 18, 21 and 25 degrees. "

Its not as though these marked "pre-set angles" might limit you.

Its continuously variable.

You want to do 17° rather than 15°, just set it.

Ummm. I don't think this is exactly easy to do entirely by hand and eye.

I'm really not sure what you might mean by "a sharper edge ... than ... with the pre-set angles".

As Chad wrote in the tutorial: - "Sharpness is not just a function of creating a super-thin edge that will readily sever free-hanging nose hairs; it’s also a function of shape and intended purpose. You could grind your chef’s knife to razor thinness, but the edge would crumble the first time you hit a bone or tried to hammer your way through a winter squash. Your knife would be sharp but useless. Similarly, a razor sharp but wedge-thick edge is great on a splitting axe but not much good for carpaccio."

The EdgePro would allow you to sharpen to an impracticably narrow included angle.

But that isn't what its about.

The EdgePro system is about maintaining a constant angle (at whatever angle you have chosen) rather than having you try to maintain that angle "freehand".

Chad's sharpening tutorial *is* long.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=26036

But its well worth the time to read.