Visiting London - Restaurant Recs Please

[MobyP]

If Leeds had two three star restaurants I'd say it was in London!

Fisherman - welcome. I believe Bray was noted in the original request, which is why we were considering it.

[Suzi Edwards]

The Fat Duck is now firmly on the international 'to do' circuit. Again, rather than being French, its a Spanish restaurant in the mould of El Bulli, but with lots of cheffly whimsy thrown in. If you don't want to take a stroll down Heston's memory lane, then half the stuff on the menu will be meaningless to you. Also you must be careful of not liking it. Many people on this board hero worship Heston and saying things like, 'it doesn't taste nice' about his food is liable to make you unpopular here.

If I were you I'd go to J. Sheekeys, and Simpsons on the Strand for some pretty genuine, pre multicultural British fare, and spend the rest of your money on the various wonderful 'ethnic' restaurants like Hakkasan, Noura, Zaika etc. that make London such a good place to be. I do, however, recommend st John, which seems English, but rather defies categorization.

In my opinion, the restaurants in London that get a lot of attention one do so because there is nothing better on offer. London is not NY, Paris, or Barcelona in terms of smart dining. Smart diners realize this and stick to what London does best rather what London produces by way of emulating successful foreign models.

opson is, of course, completely right apart from the fact that the fat duck is not spanish in any way shape or form and sheeky is a tourist trap.

hakkasan is great for high end chinese food, yauatcha is the new offshoot dim sum bar that might be worth a visit. i still think that st john bread and wine is better than the original st john...there's a place called medcalf in exmouth market in islington if you fancy something less "full on" than the original. rules is supposed to be good for traditional british game.

for great indian food you could do worse than go to tooting for some mighty fine south indian style vegetarian and then try zaika or the cinnamon club for high end stuff.

if you're near regent's park, you could quite easily get to maida vale, a very lovely part of london that has a great tapas bar called meson bilbao.

[Matthew Grant]

I'd avoid the Cinnamon club if you really want an Indian style meal. Far better to head to Tooting (or of course Mirch Masala in Norbury ) where there is North Indian/Pakastani food aplenty at very reasonable prices. The Cinnamon club is an interesting meal but is very expensive. I haven't been to Zaika in years but I really enjoyed it, once again whether it is what Stigand would be looking for in terms of an Indian meal is open to debate.

[Jonathan Day]

Many friends who come from the US seeking Indian food are looking, not for "authentic Indian food as served in various regions of India", but for something just a bit more varied and interesting than the rather standardised stuff that is served in all but a few US cities in the name of "Indian food".

Hence places like Rasa Samudra on Charlotte St (Keralan) or Kastoori, in Tooting (Gujarati) or the New Tayyab in Whitechapel would all fill the bill, whether or not they are truly "authentic". All three of these restaurants have, in my experience, been uneven in their delivery: superb food when they are performing well, but marked by occasional problems. But there are very few restaurants for which that statement isn't true.

[Matthew Grant]

All three of these restaurants have, in my experience, been uneven in their delivery: superb food when they are performing well, but marked by occasional problems. But there are very few restaurants for which that statement isn't true.

Sad but true

Edited July 4, 2004 by Matthew Grant (log)

[nimzo]

Fat Duck Spanish??????. I know Hestn used some piquillos a few years ago in a red mullet or cod dish and that butifarra once appeared for a brief while but apart from the stunning sherry list what exactly turns the FD into Spanish Opson?.

[Opson]

Fat Duck Spanish??????. I know Hestn used some piquillos a few years ago in a red mullet or cod dish and that butifarra once appeared for a brief while but apart from the stunning sherry list what exactly turns the FD into Spanish Opson?.

I don't mean Spanish in the sense of typical regional dishes, I mean Spanish in the sense of the culinary vanguardia. As Gordon Ramsay's cuisine is modelled on Guy Savoy and the like (French), so Heston's food is modelled on Ferran Adria et al: foams, gels, pop rocks, Herve This, deconstruction etc. (Spanish).

[Matthew Grant]

I'm sure Herve This will be interested to find out that he is Spanish

Much as Heston employs modern techniques and is close to Ferran Adria I think that Heston would claim the food is nearer to classical French than Spanish.

Edited July 4, 2004 by Matthew Grant (log)

[Opson]

I'm sure Herve This will be interested to find out that he is Spanish

I know This' nationality thanks, but I point out the relationship with Adria (which goes back to the early nineties and produced the now notorious foams), because if one took this board as a guide one might end up believing that Herve This was plucked from obscurity by Heston Blumenthal, just as one might be led to believe Molecular Gastronomy was Heston's 'invention'.

[MobyP]

Obviously This has had an influence over all three, but I got the impression (from these boards no less) that he had far closer ties to Gagnaire, over Adria or Blumenthal. Heston, I thought, was more associated with the science dept of some English university.

Edited July 4, 2004 by MobyP (log)

[jackal10]

The phrase "Molecular Gastronomy" was, I believe originated by Prof Nicholas Kurti, and developed by Herve This.

Although Ferran Adria is innovative and influential, so are many other chefs around the world developng this style.

[Suzi Edwards]

I'm sure Herve This will be interested to find out that he is Spanish

I know This' nationality thanks, but I point out the relationship with Adria (which goes back to the early nineties and produced the now notorious foams),

i don't think i had a foam when i ate at the fat duck. moby, can you remind me? i might be wrong.

[MobyP]

Suzi - you have a brain the size of a small German car. I on the other hand am only two steps removed from a goldfish. Herve This once proved it using only a piece of string and a banana.

[Opson]

Well, whatever. Clearly, there's no convincing Londoners that they're not at the culinary epicentre of the universe.

Scott, like you I'm only ever a vistor to London, but I suggest that instead of trying local heroes like Ramsay & Blumenthal, you'd be much better served in that area by hopping on the Eurostar to Paris and eating at Gagnaire etc.

But whatever you do, have wonderful time. London is a great city, better than most in so many respects, just not very good for high end dining.

[scott123]

Distinctive English food experiences? Does real ale count as food?

Do not, repeat, do not, leave that continent without imbibing mass quantities of cask conditioned ale.

And I'm sure I'll be in the minority in this opinion, but some of the best food on the planet can be found at Marks & Spencers.

[nimzo]

Foam, foam foam. I think the first foam at FD was a bay or basil foam served with a poached peach in 99 and probably owed more to Albert Adria than Ferran although I am sure dozens will correct me. Is it perhaps time to look at the core classics of the FD menu such as the crab biscuit with foie gras and the sweetbreads rather than the white chocolaviar and the bacon and egg ice cream?.

[Matthew Grant]

Is it perhaps time to look at the core classics of the FD menu such as the crab biscuit with foie gras and the sweetbreads rather than the white chocolaviar and the bacon and egg ice cream?.

At last somebody who understands!

[Opson]

Is it perhaps time to look at the core classics of the FD menu such as the crab biscuit with foie gras and the sweetbreads rather than the white chocolaviar and the bacon and egg ice cream?.

It's interesting that you should mention 'classics'. When does a dish become a 'classic'? Heston changes his menu less than he changes the decor of his restaurant, which is interesting because you would imagine with so much technology at his disposal he would be able to produce his revolutionary cuisine with far less effort than it appears to involve.

Is not changing your menu for years, combined with conspicuous success the defining criteria for 'classic' cuisine?

[MobyP]

(I might merge this groovy chat into the FD thread)

Although that's a good definition Opson, doesn't 'Classic' also indicate something broader? A dissemination into the world of an idea, more than just the dish itself?

The Adria Foam. Keller's Butter poached lobster. Troisgros Salmon and Sorrel. Robuchon's puree potato, or foie gras and lentils. Loiseau (sp?) mousseline of frog's legs? All of these became 'classic' along side of spreading the notion of a new approach to food (in smaller and larger ways), rather than just from their location on a the menu of a successful restaurant for a period of time. No?

[Scott -- DFW]

Thanks to everyone for the helpful advice. It's nice to hear the pros and cons on The Fat Duck. But since I don't have a reservation there yet, odds are we won't be able to get in. Same thing with Ramsay's joint. (I'll wake up at 3 AM tomorrow and try for FD reservations. BTW, if anyone has eaten at both FD and Chicago's Trio, I'd be interested to hear how they compare.)

So, let's hone in on some other questions:

(1) English puddings. My exposure to these concoctions is limited to Patrick O'Brian novels. Where should I seek out the best London has to offer in this department?

(2) Pies. Shepherd's pie, steak & kidney, etc. What and where are the best options? (And are jellied eels something to be eaten or merely admired from a distance as a bit of local color?)

(3) Fish & chips. Never had them. Want to try them.

(4) Cheeses. Any great cheese shops? Are free samples customary there as they are in the US?

(5) Breads and pastries. What can I expect or hope for?

(6) Breakfasts. My food guides don't speak much of breakfast and I've found little in the archives here. What are some good breakfast establishments?

Thanks for all the help!

Scott

[Suzi Edwards]

Well, whatever. Clearly, there's no convincing Londoners that they're not at the culinary epicentre of the universe.

rotfl

[Suzi Edwards]

BTW, if anyone has eaten at both FD and Chicago's Trio, I'd be interested to hear how they compare.)

So, let's hone in on some other questions:

(1)  English puddings.  My exposure to these concoctions is limited to Patrick O'Brian novels.  Where should I seek out the best London has to offer in this department?

(2)  Pies.  Shepherd's pie, steak & kidney, etc.  What and where are the best options?  (And are jellied eels something to be eaten or merely admired from a distance as a bit of local color?)

(3)  Fish & chips.  Never had them.  Want to try them.

(4)  Cheeses.  Any great cheese shops?  Are free samples customary there as they are in the US?

(5)  Breads and pastries.  What can I expect or hope for?

(6)  Breakfasts.  My food guides don't speak much of breakfast and I've found little in the archives here.  What are some good breakfast establishments?

Thanks for all the help!

Scott

that'd be me then. i wrote a long eulogy about trio, fat duck and made some mention of el bulli here i've eaten much, much more at trio than at the fat duck - perhaps because chicago is the centre of the culinary universe ;-). i think the fat duck is more fun. people were getting really, really drunk and there was a real sense of theatre about the place. trio is a much more intimate and, goes all wibbly for a moment, more erotic. the fat duck is definitly in the french tradition, the food at trio feels fresher, more disconnected from any classical cuisine. i'm obviously already losing sleep over alinea, grant's new restaurant...

to answer your other questions;

1. i think st john might do some good steamed pudding. they certainly do an eccles cake that will put hairs on your chest. have it with some of mrs kirkhams lancashire cheese. this really is a british classic for me. and very northern. thus proving once again that london isn't the culinary capital....(have i made my point yet?)

2. i love a pie but do think it's hard to get a good one. i have started a thread about pies. I'd avoid jellied eels, but that's a personal preference. there is a very traditional pie and mash shop in exmouth market in islington. it's worth a trip as this is whene medcalf, moro and brindisa are based. medcalf i mentioned before, moro is a completely fab north african/mediterrean place and brindisa is a wonderful spansih deli that always has lots of samples out. try some of the riserva ham cut off the bone.

3. there's a thread here about fish and chips.

4. You can't miss Neal Yard Dairy, either in Covent Garden or just by Borough market. I'd probably go to the latter on a Friday or a Saturday to see the market in full swing. I'm not sure where you're from Scott, but I have not see a US market that beats Borough in terms of quality or variety of produce. The US ones all win on price, sadly. If you get out to Islington you could also go to La Fromagerie which is up past Highbury and Islington station. They have another branch in Marylebone, on the high street, if you are in the West End though.

5. You can buy good bread to take away from St John. Avoid anywhere called Greggs or Braggs though.

6. I have no idea where you'd get a good breakfast. I'm assuming you want a full english?

[jackal10]

(1) English puddings. My exposure to these concoctions is limited to Patrick O'Brian novels. Where should I seek out the best London has to offer in this department?

(2)  Pies.  Shepherd's pie, steak & kidney, etc.  What and where are the best options?  (And are jellied eels something to be eaten or merely admired from a distance as a bit of local color?)

Simpsons or the Ivy, or a better gastro-pub. Jellied eels better admired than eaten.

(3)  Fish & chips.  Never had them.  Want to try them.

See the thread. Rock and Sole Plaice, or Upper St Fish Shop

(4)  Cheeses.  Any great cheese shops?  Are free samples customary there as they are in the US?

Neals Yard for sure, or Paxton and Whitfield, or the cheese counter at one of the larger food halls such as harrods, Havey Nicks or Fortnums. Yes, you can usually ask for samples, but don't expect to make a meal from them.

(5)  Breads and pastries.  What can I expect or hope for?

St John Bread and Wine or Baker and Spice. Good list on Dan Lepard's site http://www.danlepard.com/best.htm

Breakfasts.  My food guides don't speak much of breakfast and I've found little in the archives here.  What are some good breakfast establishments?

Simpsons. Some of the pubs near the markets. Better Hotels.

[nimzo]

Just to clarify, by "classic" I simply meant that there are dishes with a very long culinary history of centuries rather than months, the foie gras and crab combination having references from the Atlantic coastal regions of France from at least 150 years ago as do the cooking of proteins in hay, salt and pastry crusts. Lets not miss the dishes on the menu that are rooted in classical French cuisine rather than the advances in technology. At the same time I do love the "nitro" and the pop rocks.

[Gavin Convery]

You mentioned you were staying near Regent's Park, so the recommendation to go down Marylebone Lane will be your best bet as this is a mini-Mecca for foodies. I can highly recommend Providores for fusion food and a great wine list, you could also go to Divertimenti if you fancy a browse through a comprehensive stock of kitchen gear and books. There is also the michelin starred Orrery restaurant above the Conran shop.

And I will concur with St John's Bread and Wine (near spitalfields market) where you will get pies, new English food, bread, cheeses and probably the best meal you will have in London.

Another fine dining recommendation is Tom Aikens - there is a thread on this board. Haven't been but going this Friday but it is hard to get in to.

Hey and why not do a day trip to Paris? I took a friend there last year - we arrived for lunch at the 3 star Le Cinq and were home in time for dinner. It's even quicker now and should only take about 2 and a half hours to get there for about £69 return.