biga starter vs sourdough

[pastrygirl]

I'm a pastry chef more into plated desserts, but my new job requires baking lots of different breads and developing recipes for multiple locations.

I have a couple of recipes that use a biga starter that are successful, but I'm concerned about consistency using the biga day 1 vs. day 3. I've been trying to get a sourdough starter going, but this morning I decided it wasn't happening and threw it away. My question is, can I just use the biga as a jumping-off point for sourdough and feed it? Can/should I add old biga to the fresh batch to enhance the flavor, or should I stick with making a fresh biga every 3 days? Making it fresh seems to work fine, I'm just looking for ways to make better bread. I do add yeast to the breads also, and although I would like to do a slow rise, space and educating my staff are issues, so I'm depending on the pre-fermented starter to add complexity.

If I do get a sourdough starter going, is there any point in keeping both sourdough and biga starters, or is one enough? I'm inclined to just use one, unless there's a compelling reason to keep two cambros of fermenting goo in my reach-in.

Thanks!

Andrea

[gfron1]

HERE is some light reading while those in the know respond.

[devlin]

I'm not sure whether I'll be addressing your questions completely or correctly, but here's my off the cuff response.

First, if you're using a biga over three days, it should be refreshed probably the 2nd day, which, at least in my experience, will keep it more viable than simply starting a biga on day one and letting it sit the next day and then using it on day three.

There's that.

As for biga versus sourdough, I guess my first question is whether you mean biga with commercial yeast. Because if you're going to simply convert a commercially yeasted biga to a sourdough culture,... well... I don't know that that's the way to go. And in fact I'd just say, No. Don't do that.

Bigas are meant to be started ahead of the actual bread making, refreshed over time depending on the length of the fermentation time frame you want, and then used as part of the final dough (with perhaps a bit of the dough saved for the next batch, but I've never actually used the "old dough" method myself).

Sourdough cultures, on the other hand, are living creatures you maintain for as long as you want to maintain them.

For me, bigas are fine. Use a commercially yeasted biga for better flavor in your yeasted breads; or use your sourdough culture as a sort of biga/preferment for your sourdoughs.

But sourdough cultures are an entirely different animal. Or sort of. You can use a sourdough culture as a biga, but you can't use a commercially yeasted biga for a an actual sourdough culture.

In terms of maintenance, you have to pay attention to the sourdough in a way that you don't have to with the biga, because the biga is a short-term method, whereas the sourdough is a method that takes the place of commercial yeast and you have to feed it for it to continue to live. The biga? You make one and use it. Done. The sourdough culture? You marry it.

[alanamoana]

if you're concerned about flavor development and don't want to commit to a sourdough starter, you can always use the old dough method that devlin mentioned above. save some of the dough from the batch you've just made and use that to start your dough the next day. this way, you don't even need to worry about the biga. a more experienced baker (anyone?) can explain proportions, etc.

[jackal10]

I use a stiff sourdough culture, 50% hydration (twice as much flour as water by weight). I think it gives a better flavour than the more liquid versions.

Ideally find a baker with an established culture and borrow some to start. Personally I find them easy to maintain - just leave in a covered jar in the fridge between baking sessions

To start your own starter, if you cant borrow one, mix equal quantities of flour and water (use bottled water if yours is chlorinated). Nothing else, No grapes, raisins, old boots or anything. Leave in a WARM (28-30C/82-86F place. Temperature is important to make sure you get the right bugs. After a few days to a week or so it should be bubbly. It will separate into two layers, just stir them together. Throw out two thirds and replace with equal quantities by weight of flour and water. Leave in the warm place for a day. Repeat. That is your basic starter,

You can now make your biga

Take a tablespoon of his starter (10g) and mix with 8oz of flour and 4oz of water. Knead until mixed (5mins), and then leave in the warm place for 12-24 hours (overnight). That is the mother sponge, you can keep in a jar in the fridge.

To bake repeat the last step with a tablespoon of the mother to make the biga. When the jar of mother is looking a bit empty make a double batch of biga and save half.

[pastrygirl]

Yes, commercial yeast.

Devlin, if I can refresh the biga once, why can't I just keep refreshing it? Because the yeast would eventually exhaust itself after it got too diluted? The old dough method sounds easiest, I used to do that with my pizza dough, I was considering that too. Will it work for pumpernickel? I have a recipe from the previous PC that everybody loves that I need to keep.

I generally avoid commitment, maybe that is why I'm apprehensive about sourdough and impatient with bread in general...nurturing it, getting to know it ...takes too much time, I just want to get something in the oven!

[devlin]

Yes, commercial yeast. 

Devlin, if I can refresh the biga once, why can't I just keep refreshing it?  Because the yeast would eventually exhaust itself after it got too diluted?  The old dough method sounds easiest, I used to do that with my pizza dough, I was considering that too.  Will it work for pumpernickel?  I have a recipe from the previous PC that everybody loves that I need to keep.

I generally avoid commitment, maybe that is why I'm apprehensive about sourdough and impatient with bread in general...nurturing it, getting to know it ...takes too much time, I just want to get something in the oven!

←

My experience is that refreshing a commercially yeasted biga multiple times will only take you so far and then it starts to degrade, losing strength and becoming intolerably boozy or alchohol tasting. I'm assuming that's normal, otherwise it would be another alternative for bread bakers who are committed to fabulous bread. I've never heard of anybody having any success doing that.

But I'm having a little trouble understanding why you are reluctant to maintain a sourdough culture if you're interested in doing essentially the same thing with a biga. Why not just start a sourdough culture instead (or buy one)? Or, alternatively, why not just whip up a biga for single uses? Or maybe I'm not understanding what you mean. Surely maintaining a biga in the way you suggest would take more commitment than simply making single-use bigas, and at the same time, it's also is pretty much what you'd do if you were maintaining a sourdough culture.

So, I'm a little stumped in that regard.

I'm assuming the old dough would work in a pumpernickel. Like all traditional breads, pumpernickel was originally made without commerical yeast.

If I were you? I'd experiment with your ideas and see where it takes you. If you're reluctant to play and experiment, you're going to continue to make breads the way you're making them now, and which you seem to want to move beyond. There's no getting around experimenting when it comes to learning how to make really good breads. I know you're looking for a quick fix and fast way to know how to do it, but I don't think it's actually possible.

Also, it occurs to me you're thinking maintaining and using a sourdough culture is complicated and time consuming/labor intensive and difficult, which it's really not, once you learn how to use one. But again, it's a thing you have to commit to in order to learn how to do it. Once you learn how, it's actually not any more difficult than making a biga or making a bread with commercial yeast.

Edited November 11, 2007 by devlin (log)

[jackal10]

The problem with maintaining any culture for long periods is that the side products - alcohol, acid, and off flavours tend to accumulate.

Thats why it is necessary to refresh it from time to time by taking a small amount of culture into a large amount of flour and water - I use 10g stater to 200g flour and 100g water. Essentially you are making a new biga, so if you are using commercial yeast you might as well use new yeast and avoid any contamination...

Edited November 11, 2007 by jackal10 (log)

[qrn]

HEREis everything you need about s/d

Bud