NYC Foodies, Get Thee to New Jersey

[tommy]

Would you say that the payoff for A Mano is big enough to warrant that kind of time and travel for a special trip?

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i only mention a mano because i know that you are someone who might appreciate it (and might not know about it). for the foodie who is interested in Neapolitan style pizza, and who has already been to UPN, Naples 45, and the others, and who would make a special trip to New Haven, I'd say it's worth consideration. but for the average foodie, who, granted, is above average, no, i wouldn't recommend the trip to Ridgewood.

[Fat Guy]

A word about transit schedules:

I like them. They mean you know when your train or bus is coming.

Of course, all New York City bus and subway routes have schedules too. It's just that the schedules are so unreliable nobody bothers with them except for people who commute at 4:45am -- the only time of day when the printed schedules really hold. Service is frequent in rush hour, so you don't need to worry about the schedule then, but on many lines at many other times of day or night one can wait a painfully long time for the right bus or subway.

But when schedules are reliable, as they have in my experience been on the New Jersey Transit trains, you can plan around them so you're not standing around waiting an indeterminate length of time for the next train. When I've gone to Princeton by train (same line as Edison/Metropark), I've never felt constrained by the schedule. Especially on routes where there are two trains an hour or more, I find it more convenient to have a schedule than to show up and wait for a random amount of time. I wait 15-20 minutes for New York City subways all the time outside of rush hour. That wait is pretty much unavoidable unless you luck into a train. Even with 30 minutes between NJ Transit trains, you basically never need to wait 15-20 minutes because you can safely arrive 5 minutes before the scheduled departure. That means you can continue your shopping, browsing, coffee, etc., until it's time to go.

[ghostrider]

I've actually had a few things that took me to Ridgewood on the train.  To be more clear, it's around 14 bucks round trip per person, the trip averages between 50 minutes to almost an hour (that's in addition to getting to Penn Station by subway or cab and arriving early enough to buy your ticket and get on the train), and there are only two return trains per hour (roughly on the hour and 20 minutes after the hour) on weekday evenings and around one per hour on the weekends.

That's a pretty serious time and expense investment.  Figure a party of four is going to expend a minimum of 3.5 hours to the trip and 56 bucks on the train.  I'd rate it quicker to get to Franny's in Park Slope, and quite a bit easier to get to Una Pizza Napoletana in Manhattan or Fornino in Williamsburg -- not to mention that there is no transportation cost to a NYer with an unlimited MetroCard.  Would you say that the payoff for A Mano is big enough to warrant that kind of time and travel for a special trip?

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$13 round trip from Penn but a dollar isn't worth quibbling over when comparing suburban train fares with MetroCards. You're correct about the time.

Is the payoff worth it? I think Tommy hits it accurately from a culinary point of view.

There are other factors, such as whether folks find train rides intrinsically fun & enjoy poking around new places, Ridgewood being a rather pleasant town to stroll around on a summer's evening. I would have found it worthwhile when I was living in Manhattan, though A Mano didn't exist then; I undertook similar excursions toward the end of those years which led me to realize that there was life outside of Manhattan & eventually to move here. Folks who choose life in New York because they are total urbanites & don't want to deal with anything else probably wouldn't find it worth the effort.

I don't have a big argument to make here because I still make the reverse trip to NYC often enough to know what I'm missing. (And that's quicker & cheaper for me because Rutherford is closer in than Ridgewood.) I'm just trying to point out the opportunities for those who might enjoy them. Some might take the view I had, that your $13 buys you a nice little mini-vacation with some good food at the center of it. How close one is to Penn or a PATH stop will temper that view, of course.

[Fat Guy]

One other transportation option worth noting is the GWBBS. That's the George Washington Bridge Bus Station. For people who live along the A subway line, the subway shoots up to the GWBBS with impressive alacrity. If you stand at the north end of the train, you can step right into the pedestrian passageway that connects the 175th subway station with the GWBBS. The travel time from the GWBBS to Fort Lee is 5 minutes. Yes, 5 minutes. That's right, folks. 5 minutes. The fare is $1.35. The buses run with great frequency, because there are several routes out of GWBBS which have Fort Lee as their first stop. So schedule-phobes don't have to worry -- they can just show up and there will be a bus soon enough. The GWBBS is a great resource for uptowners who don't want to do the New York Penn Station or PATH thing. My wife has cousins in Teaneck and when she has taken the bus there from the GWBBS the travel time has been 12 minutes.

Fort Lee is a walkable town with sidewalks and most of the restaurants clustered in a relatively small area. I'd say it's not as worthwhile as visiting Manhattan's Chinatown and more worthwhile than visiting Manhattan's Little Korea. But that's where the issue of going once comes in. Let's say you're someone who lives on the West Side of Manhattan, making your opportunity cost of travel to Fort Lee pretty damn low. Let's say you've been to Chinatown many times and Little Korea a few times, but have never been to Fort Lee. Well, I think instead of going to Chinatown or Little Korea another time, you should go to Fort Lee. I've had outstanding dim sum at Silver Pond, I think Mo' Pho is terrific for Vietnamese, I'm sure some New Jersey people can give a full rundown of the best Fort Lee places, and just walking around and seeing all the Korean signs and bakeries and such is great fun.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Fat Guy (log)

[tommy]

One other transportation option worth noting is the GWBBS. That's the George Washington Bridge Bus Station. For people who live along the A subway line, the subway shoots up to the GWBBS with impressive alacrity. If you stand at the north end of the train, you can step right into the pedestrian passageway that connects the 175th subway station with the GWBBS. The travel time from the GWBBS to Fort Lee is 5 minutes. Yes, 5 minutes. That's right, folks. 5 minutes. The fare is $1.35. The buses run with great frequency, because there are several routes out of GWBBS which have Fort Lee as their first stop. So schedule-phobes don't have to worry -- they can just show up and there will be a bus soon enough. The GWBBS is a great resource for uptowners who don't want to do the New York Penn Station or PATH thing. My wife has cousins in Teaneck and when she has taken the bus there from the GWBBS the travel time has been 12 minutes.

Fort Lee is a walkable town with sidewalks and most of the restaurants clustered in a relatively small area. what's the schedule of the GWBBS on the way back to NYC?  I'd say it's not as worthwhile as visiting Manhattan's Chinatown and more worthwhile than visiting Manhattan's Little Korea. But that's where the issue of going once comes in. Let's say you're someone who lives on the West Side of Manhattan, making your opportunity cost of travel to Fort Lee pretty damn low. Let's say you've been to Chinatown many times and Little Korea a few times, but have never been to Fort Lee. Well, I think instead of going to Chinatown or Little Korea another time, you should go to Fort Lee. I've had outstanding dim sum at Silver Pond, I think Mo' Pho is terrific for Vietnamese, I'm sure some New Jersey people can give a full rundown of the best Fort Lee places, and just walking around and seeing all the Korean signs and bakeries and such is great fun.

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i don't know that i'd run to mo' Pho given the options in chinatown, and other places in manhattan. it never struck me as best-in-class even in my radius of 20 miles from home-base (NNJ, for those who don't know). never been to dim sum at silver pond, though.

are there a bunch of walkable korean places in fort lee? most are in pal park (1.5-2 miles away?) in my experience. now that i think about it, one could certainly walk 2 miles in just over 25 minutes, which is just about the time i've waited for subways at points, so. i worked in Fort Lee for a few years (at CA, and some other companies), and know a few more who do/did as well. Oh boy, when they lived in NYC, or even hoboken in the 2000's, wow, these were not happy commuters. i guess the commute is really dymanic, depending on the time you leave, go home, what time of the day, what day of the week, etc. i can walk across the GWB in 20 minutes, take a bike in 5. 12 minutes on a bus? i dunno. i can't wait to see if anyone who lives on the lower east side reports back!!!! that's what the "throw-down" is all about i guess.

but damn, i don't even like driving around pal park/fort lee much less walking. maybe there's a bus that takes you down broad ave or something? regardless, my experiences there have been no better or worse than those i've had in the "little korea" area of manhattan.

i certainly, as a NJ person, can't get behind the Mehndi place is Mo-town, which in my experience is simply a non-entity, but i'm excited about the Edison prospect. i hope it's, way, way better than the mo-town restaurant, which was barely worth the trip off of my front porch in bergen county, with car 10 feet way, popping down 287 for a coupla few minutes. just my opinion. not right, not wrong, of course.

NJ is a great place to visit. fort lee has great sites, great culture, and if you have a car, great shopping within minutes. it's just crazy.

[slkinsey]

It's one thing to talk about the low opportunity cost of public transportation when you travel by car. It's another thing entirely when you have to avail yourself of that public transportation yourself. Suddenly the opportunity cost for the same trip gets a lot higher. Steven: if you pledged to travel exclusively by public transportation for a month, and to stay in your apartment working until no earlier than 6:00 every weeknight (i.e., making special trips only on weekday evenings and weekends) you might find that the opportunity cost is a good bit higher than you suppose it to be.

WRT Fort Lee... As someone who has lived on the A line for 17 years, I would also remark that the A line shoots up to the GWBBS with impressive alacrity only for someone who is traveling from below 59th Street -- and then it's only impressive because it's such a long distance and the train runs express for most of that time. For those of us above 59th Street, it's the B or C train up to 125th and then a transfer to the A. And the trip averages 30 minutes once you figure in the transfers. I gotta tell you... Tommy's less-than-ringing endorsement of the Fort Lee experience isn't exactly making me want to jump on the IND and grab a bus over the bridge.

[docsconz]

Fort Lee is not bad. I have a sister who lives there and have been to Silver Pond a number of times. It's not bad so long as one stays away from the fried dim sum, but it is not special. I will go back because it is often more convenient for me than other NYC dim sum spots, but not because it is a superior or even a particularly unique experience. As far as dim sum in NJ, I prefer Dim Sum Dynasty in Ridgewood to Silver Pond. Neither hold a candle to Chinatown Brasserie.

I find this topic interesting coming from a different trajectory. Due to family in NJ, I often stay there when coming down to the metropolitan area and so am inclined to try exceptional places in NJ out of convenience. However, I haven't yet found anything to prevent me from heading into the city when looking for a special experience. Cucharamama is the one place so far that I would consider making a special trip from where I live in upstate NY. Indeed my wife did so a few weeks ago to go to a Sunday afternoon chocolate festival there with her sister who lives in Jersey City.

To me the bottom line is that NJ has some very good food with some of it quite compelling and worthy of a detour for a change of scenery if nothing else. However, if I lived in NYC, it would not be my highest priority to make a special trip there simply for the food.

Ironically when I was in Medical School in northern Manhattan many years ago, I found it to be much more convenient and better to do my grocery shopping in NJ rather than in Manhattan. Of course at that time, from where I lived it was easier to head over the GWB than it was to head downtown especially as I had occasional access to a car. As it is today, I prefer shopping at the 125th St Fairway for routine shopping over anything accessible to me in NJ. That is not to say that the Asian groceries aren't fun and good. They are, but when I stock up down there, I tend to buy things at which the Fairway is better.

[Fat Guy]

are there a bunch of walkable korean places in fort lee? 

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Yes! Restaurant-wise I've only been to Dae Ga but others I've walked past or read about are So Kong Dong, Hanil Kwan, Doo Rae Myun Ok, Surakan and Pyung Yang Mandoy. Can't vouch for any of them -- though So Kong Dong is recommended widely -- but the point here is that there are lots and lots of walkable Korean places in Fort Lee. A lot of these places are, I think, pretty recent arrivals, so it's possible that when you worked there the Korean business density was less.

I also see several other businesses on Google Maps that I've never heard of but that look like they must be restaurants -- someone more familiar with Fort Lee than either of us will have to say. There's also the Fort Lee branch of Bon Chon Chicken. Then there's the Korean-Chinese place, called Great Wall, and the Korean bakery named, oddly enough, Bakery Parisienne (I've been there and enjoyed it). All of those places are within about a 5-minute walking radius. There are also various Chinese, Japanese and Southeast Asian restaurants and non-restaurant shops in the easily walkable downtown Fort Lee area.

A few blocks farther out -- maybe a 10-minute walk -- is Yiga, which is the top place on my Fort Lee to-do list right now, because both friends and a recent New Jersey Monthly article recommended it for nine treasures. I'm saving it for when I don't have the car available, because Fort Lee is one of the few New Jersey destinations (Hoboken, Newark and Princeton being the others where I've sometimes made the choice to use public transportation even when I've owned a car) where public transportation is often preferable to driving.

That New Jersey Monthly piece I just mentioned was titled "Seoul Mates" (groan) and lays out the Fort Lee situation pretty well:

The opening of the George Washington Bridge in 1931 put Fort Lee on the map. The panic over the state’s first high-rise boom in the early 1970s put the borough in the headlines. But only in the last twenty years—as the Korean community has grown to just under a third of the total population of 40,000—has Fort Lee become a dining destination.

and

New Jersey has the third largest Korean population in the country, according to the 2000 census, and more than half of the state’s Korean residents live in Bergen County. That makes for an active and highly discerning restaurant clientele. Every dedicated and enthusiastic eater, regardless of ethnic background, stands to benefit.

There is also discussion of Palisades Park in the piece.

[JoRic]

This post reminded me of a place I had heard about in Hoboken a few years back that has since closed.  I remember rumors of a place that did the whole modern/molecular thing very well, but found that it had closed.  Anyone know what happened to the chef of that place?  Is this the same guy you speak of or are there two that fit this description?

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Nope...you're thinking of Venue, which closed over a year ago. Different chef.

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Yes, thanks! Does anyone know what's become of him? Or whether he has opened or will open a new place? Since NY is famously lacking in places in this category (slim pickin's after WD-50 and Tailor until Paul Liebrandt gets back in the act), I'd think it would at least need to be discussed in an NJ must visit topic.

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FWIW, Paul Liebrandt's very first executive chef job was in.....New Jersey. At (the late) Twentyeight in Montclair.

[weinoo]

i can't wait to see if anyone who lives on the lower east side reports back!!!!  that's what the "throw-down" is all about i guess.

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As one who lives on the lower east side, I won't be able to report back - as I stated earlier, I have no interest in the drive or 3 - 4 hours round trip on public transportation. I will say, however, that I took a 25 minute drive (door-to-door) into Astoria yesterday for a major Thai pig out.

[Pan]

[...]When I've gone to Princeton by train (same line as Edison/Metropark), I've never felt constrained by the schedule.[...]

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Are you going to Princeton Junction, which is in fact on the Northeast Corridor Line to Trenton, or Princeton, which -- unless they've suddenly changed things recently -- requires a change of trains in Princeton Junction?

[Fat Guy]

I've gone to both many times and it makes no difference from a planning perspective. It's not a situation like where you change from one line to another. It's a dedicated train that only makes those two stops: Princeton and Princeton Junction. The "dinky" waits for the NE Corridor train. There's no need for passengers to coordinate schedules -- the train is just there.

[baroness]

Let's set forth a few categories of food experiences here to help with the analysis:

6. Shopping. New Jersey ethnic food shopping is great. Once you get out there, the Super H-Mart, the Mitsuwa Marketplace, the Foodmart International and a few other places are great fun to visit. You can probably go around New York City and cobble together most of the same stuff, but the experience is inimitable. Many times, I've made a day of combining shopping (both food and non-food) with eating in New Jersey. If you hit multiple spots then the drive there and back isn't a big deal.

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Mitsuwa is worth an occasional trip.

However, if the Foodmart International you praise is the one in Linden, I disagree. I made my first visit last week and spent a grand total of $6.19. They may have volume of particular items (I liked the towering pyramids of cans), but no breadth of selection whatsoever. If this store had been the focus of my trip, I would have been highly annoyed at the investment of time, gas, and tolls involved.

[Nathan]

I wait 15-20 minutes for New York City subways all the time outside of rush hour. That wait is pretty much unavoidable unless you luck into a train.

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huh? the 6 runs about every 5-8 minutes during non-rush hour times. the 4/5 runs about the same. after midnight, the 4 runs local, thus actually increasing the number of (de facto) 6 trains....so at 3 in the morning you never wait more than 5 minutes on the 6 line.

the A/C/E line has one of those trains running about every 6 minutes at any time. ditto for the N/R/W/Q

the L can have long waits at off-peak times but at least they have terminals telling you when the next train is.

[Fat Guy]

Baroness: I was talking about Ridgefield, though that one is (assuming it's still open -- I haven't been in awhile) not as good as the original, departed Foodmart International in Jersey City. I would definitely not recommend a trip focused on Foodmart International. I would, however, recommend it as a stop for anyone who is already at the Super H-Mart in Ridgefield -- which I think is destination-worthy. The last time I was at Foodmart International, I also probably spent under $10. But I love wandering the aisles. And there's a topic somewhere about finding Sichuan peppercorns there at a time when folks were having a hard time finding them elsewhere.

[Fat Guy]

at 3 in the morning you never wait more than 5 minutes on the 6 line.

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I've been riding the subways all my life and the notion that "at 3 in the morning you never wait more than 5 minutes on the 6 line" is simply ludicrous.

[Joe Gerard]

i can't wait to see if anyone who lives on the lower east side reports back!!!!  that's what the "throw-down" is all about i guess.

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As one who lives on the lower east side, I won't be able to report back - as I stated earlier, I have no interest in the drive or 3 - 4 hours round trip on public transportation. I will say, however, that I took a 25 minute drive (door-to-door) into Astoria yesterday for a major Thai pig out.

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Which place did you go to? Arharn Thai?

[Nathan]

at 3 in the morning you never wait more than 5 minutes on the 6 line.

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I've been riding the subways all my life and the notion that "at 3 in the morning you never wait more than 5 minutes on the 6 line" is simply ludicrous.

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have you ridden the 4/6 at 3 a.m. in the last few years? (5 minutes might be an exaggeration but I doubt I've ever waited as much as 10)

[slkinsey]

I gotta go with Steven on this one -- especially at 3 AM, it's not unheard of to wait 15 or 20 minutes for a train, and "never more than 5 minutes" is not reflective of my experience. That said, I also think Steven is stretching reality in the other direction by suggesting that 15-20 minutes is the averate non-rush-hour experience. What reflects my reality as someone who travels by subway 99% of the time is: "most often not more than around 5 minutes but occasionally 15-20 minutes."

It's not unheard of to wait 15-20 minutes for a subway at any time of the day, if there's been some kind of delay, but of course, the same kinds of delays happen to trains and buses out of the City to NJ.

[Nathan]

It's not unheard of to wait 15-20 minutes for a subway at any time of the day, if there's been some kind of delay, but of course, the same kinds of delays happen to trains and buses out of the City to NJ.

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well, ok, that's true. it's just uncommon. (and on the flipside, I've had the train from Princeton to Princeton Junction run late, miss the connection and had to sit for 45 minutes waiting for the next train from Princeton Junction to Penn Station)

[Double 0]

my sig says it all

[docsconz]

I had a quick visit to the Metropolitan area this weekend, staying in NJ and playing mostly in NYC.

Though my wife and I went out to eat in NYC Friday night, we ordered some take-out pizze from Amano in Ridgewood. While takeout is not the way to go there as the pizze got a little soggy, the flavors were very good and the potential was easy to see. They weren't cheap though. They were true Neapolitan style, but were they worth a trip from NYC? Only if one were on a quest to sample all of the better or most Neapolitan style pizze in the area. Otherwise, it is a good stop if in the area.

On Saturday, largely as a result of this topic, my son and I went to Mitsuwa Market in Edgewater. We had some very good ramen, black sesame ice cream and an interesting visit to the supermarket. I would be very curious to try out some of the other vendors. Even though I preferred the salt ramen at Setagaya in NYC, the ramen was quite good and the place very busy. We waited about twenty minutes from ordering. The visit was worthwhile having been in the area and I will do so again when back in NJ, but I would only make the trip from NYC if I had a serious jones for buying Japanese ingredients to make at home. I bought a variety of mushrooms including matsutake, fresh yuzu and a few other interesting items.

Although I do not agree with the extreme angle of Fat Guy's argument, I would say that New Jersey is worth a visit by food savvy New Yorkers as there is plenty of good and interesting food to be had there. Are those same savvy New Yorkers really missing out if they don't go? I would say that while worthwhile the offerings I am aware of from this and plenty of other visits in NJ are not so compelling as to make it essential for anyone from NYC to make a special trip there just for the food offerings.

[Fat Guy]

Although I do not agree with the extreme angle of Fat Guy's argument, I would say that New Jersey is worth a visit by food savvy New Yorkers as there is plenty of good and interesting food to be had there. Are those same savvy New Yorkers really missing out if they don't go? I would say that while worthwhile the offerings I am aware of from this and plenty of other visits  in NJ are not so compelling as to make it essential for anyone from NYC to make a special trip there just for the food offerings.

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John, aren't you already on record saying Cucharamama may be compelling enough to warrant a special trip, like so many other people who have claimed, "Well, there's one place worth going"? That would seem to contradict absolute -- one might say extreme -- claims of New Jersey never, ever being a compelling culinary destination unless one happens to be in the area already.

But of course, if you live in Manhattan, you are in the area of New Jersey already. Look at a map! We've gone over this ground time and again: quick, frequent, $2 buses to Mitsuwa; PATH to Hoboken and Newark; bus to Fort Lee. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss all those places as not compelling enough to warrant a trip on the PATH train.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Fat Guy (log)

[docsconz]

I haven't yet been to Cucharamama, though it is a restaurant that I do hope to go to some time. I agree that NJ has some fine food and food worth visiting for, but I would not go so far as to say that food enthusiasts from NYC must get to NJ or they haven't lived. I think if one happens to be going to NJ anyway or if one wants a change of scenery from NYC then NJ is a perfectly good destination. Though I visit NJ fairly often to visit family and I generally manage to eat well while I am there, I have yet to eat someplace there that I would make a special trip there solely for that purpose. Actually there has been one exception - the first eGullet pig roast!

BTW, I have never taken the extreme position of "New Jersey never, ever being a compelling culinary destination unless one happens to be in the area already". I would have liked to have been to The Ryland Inn or Venue for example, but never got there when I had the opportunity. Still that is different than saying the converse which is to paraphrase, "one must go to NJ to dine or one's dining experience is not sufficient." I see nothing wrong with someone choosing to visit NJ to dine, though one is not necessarily compelled to. Worthwhile and necessary are two different things.

[weinoo]

But of course, if you live in Manhattan, you are in the area of New Jersey already. Look at a map! We've gone over this ground time and again: quick, frequent, $2 buses to Mitsuwa; PATH to Hoboken and Newark; bus to Fort Lee. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss all those places as not compelling enough to warrant a trip on the PATH train.

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And haven't we been over this ground time and again...

$2 buses from Port Authority to Mitsuwa - add about a 4 hour round trip for someone on the lower east side (taking the subway adds $4, a cab about $30 round trip to PA), when I can walk to Chinatown or East 9th St. in 15 minutes...actually, I think I live in Chinatown .

PATH - also around 3 hours round-trip to final destination.

And now that we've heard doc's opinion...well, let's just say I've accepted my decision not to rush to NJ.