Siu Yook (Roast Pork Belly)

[Tepee]

WB Sam! And, thanks for sharing The Great Crackling Experiment. Although I'm quite pleased (understatement) with my baking soda/vinegar method, I'm quite drawn to try the vodka and lye methods too. Soon, soon....

Pix of Saturday's siu yook.

[origamicrane]

hiya tepee

thanks haven't posted in a while but back now.

Please give them a try as need to know if others can replicate the same results.

I think that next time I will try using different types of alcohol too.

I wonder if using a brandy or a whiskey will add a detectable flavour or colouring to the crackling?

Might try overkill next time and triple up on some of the methods like flame it then, pierce it, then multiple score, then brush alcohol/lye and dry for 2-3 day in the fridge

also just added this to recipegullet

full recipe

[CFT]

I wonder if your "lifting" crackling is due to scoring the skin too deeply? It's curling up like scored cuttlefish would do. Good job so far!

[origamicrane]

I wonder if your "lifting" crackling is due to scoring the skin too deeply? It's curling up like scored cuttlefish would do. Good job so far!

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it's possible as usually when i make siu yook with the spiked hammer the crackling never lifts off the meat....

but then again previous to last night i never made siu yook this way

maybe the lifting is a result of scoring instead of piercing?

Test 8 the scored piece had the most scoring of all the pieces and you can see that it has lifted a bit but not as much as the lye water piece.

I need some people to repeat these recipes to confirm if they get the same results as I had my fill of roast pork for at least a few weeks

my own roast pork sampling menu

hehehe

[miladyinsanity]

I don't know how you do it, origamicrane, because after all that roast pork I'm not sure that I'd ever want to see another pig in my life. LOL.

But bravo!

[muichoi]

Thanks for a brilliant and fascinating report. I shall try a combination of torching and lye water at the weekend. How much lye did you use?

[origamicrane]

Thanks for a brilliant and fascinating report. I shall try a combination of torching and lye water at the weekend. How much lye did you use?

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just enough to wet a pastry brush and brush the skin lightly and evenly.

Enough so you can definitely see there is thin layer of lye water all over the skin but not soo much that you can see it dripping off.

I look forward to hearing your results

Edited February 13, 2008 by origamicrane (log)

[Prawncrackers]

So generally the old tried and tested ways faired well in your experiment which is a good sign. The surprise being Vodka. I remember my uncle telling me he uses brandy for his crackling. I've never tried his but i too thought it would affect the taste.

As for your crackling lifting, I've noticed in these past few months that mine does that when i've over treated with soda. So i'm using less and less each time especially if i've got a good piece of pork to begin with.

It might be an obvious statement but I've found that the quality of the pork really affects the quality of the crackling. If you start with a flaccid wet piece of pork then you need to treat the skin more to get the desired affect. So here's another set of variables for your next set of experiments: different types of pork!!

If you can get them have a go with some rare-breed stuff like Tamworth or Old Spot pork. I've tried all sorts with some mixed results. The best results i've had are from a good butchers close-by that stocks just ordinary commercial British pork but i'm convinced it's the way they prepare and store their meat that makes it so good for Siu Yook. It always seems like it's been hung well, the meat is dark and firm, with a clear contrast between meat and fat and the skin is parchment dry.

Oh and Tepee, you've been holding out on this thread because that is some fantastic looking pork!!

[origamicrane]

  So here's another set of variables for your next set of experiments: different types of pork!! 

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oouuhh!!!! different types of pork

never thought of that.

Think i will have to take a visit to the Ginger Pig buthcers.

My parents actually said last night that although the crackling was good they have made better. They been in the restaurant trade for over 30 years now and they said that back 20 years ago they could get the most amazing crackling with the minimum of effort. They said they just pierced the skin, rubbed salt and hung it to dry for a few days and the whole piece would blister perfectly.

One of the reason i started this experiment was that they complained that when they make siu yook nowadays the result are quite variable sometimes good sometimes bad and they are convinced it because of the quality of the pork available to us.

[Tepee]

Prawncrackers: Yes, that was a roast I was proud of...my guests couldn't get enough. I used a gillette blade to score the skin in criss-crosses very close together, around 2mm. It's actually quite effortless with a new blade. The denaturing was done by rubbing baking soda on the scored skin and leaving it to dry in the fridge overnight. After around 12 hours, I brushed rice vinegar on it. Lovely bubbling sight it was. I then dabbed off as much as I could with paper towels.

Origamecrane: After pouring boiling water over the meat, we get a half cooked half raw chunk of meat. Even rubbing copious amount of salt on it left me wondering how safe it was. And you're thinking of stretching that to 2 or 3 days? Reassure me, please.

[origamicrane]

Origamecrane: After pouring boiling water over the meat, we get a half cooked half raw chunk of meat. Even rubbing copious amount of salt on it left me wondering how safe it was. And you're thinking of stretching that to 2 or 3 days? Reassure me, please.

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I'm not a food safety officier so if anyone is more qualified to respond to this please do.

From a food health and safety point of view scalding it with hot water and then leaving it in the frdige for 2-3 days probably isn't the best idea. But also from a classical health and safety point of view poultry should be cooked to an internal temperature of +75C to be completely safe, which would equal very overcooked and dry meat.

But what i do know is that the food danger temperature zones are between 5-50C

you leave any food in that temperature range long enough and it will degrade (there's a fascinating thread in the cooking forum about sous vide which goes very indepth into food health and safety).

When you scald the meat put the wire rack at an 45 degree angle and just try to scald the skin rather then the meat.

After we scald the pork quickly dab it dry and start rubbing salt into the skin then we put it in the fridge. All this probably take at most 30-40 minutes i think this time frame is not enough to have much bacterial growth. Also we scald the exterior with the boiling water which will kill any surface bacteria and then we dry and rub a lot of salt into the skin which again will slow bacteria growth due to the reduce moisture and high salt content and finally we stick it back in the fridge and cool it back to a safe temperature to dry.

The main rule is not to have the meat hanging around in warm humid temperatures for too long and you should be safe.

But having said that my parents used to pierce and rub salt into the skin and then hang it above the shop stove for 3 days and i believe that was teh real classical way of making siu yuk. We never got ill from eating it and i think in that situation it was a combination of high salt and enough heat to dry the skin and meat so that bacteria didn't have enough time to grow on it.

I think there is a thread in this channel about lap yuk (wind dried wax pork/duck)

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=93137

where they marinade the raw pork and hang it in front of a electric fan for a week or so. Now that will get any health and safety officier in a twist but chinese have been eating it forever.

Ultimately do what you feel you are comfortable with and the main thing is to make sure you have quality ingredients, make sure your hands and equipment are clean and that you don't leave food in a warm and humid environment for extended period of time and that if the meat smells funny throw it away.

Edited February 14, 2008 by origamicrane (log)

[Tepee]

Thanks, Sam. Not to worry, I'll definitely be keeping the pork in the fridge. A shame I can't attempt to make the long-hang-sorta-preserved meats since Msia fits the HOT and HUMID bill.

[Dejah]

Origamecrane: After pouring boiling water over the meat, we get a half cooked half raw chunk of meat. Even rubbing copious amount of salt on it left me wondering how safe it was. And you're thinking of stretching that to 2 or 3 days? Reassure me, please.

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I'm not sure how safe it is with salt curing pork for 2 - 3 days, but I've been doing it for years, as has my Mom. Would salting completely raw pork be different than with half cooked raw chunk of meat?

I cover the slabs with a layer of coarse salt and leave the container on the counter for 3 days. By the end of 3 days, the meat is firm to the touch and has a greyish tinge. I use finger size pieces in my joong, but this last batch I made for the pavilion demo, I've been using up as cubes cooked with our rice.

The climate would definitely affect the safety issue. In Canada, it is dry and cooler.

[Ben Hong]

Have no fear about salted meats out in room temperature. Salt is one of the best preservatives/bacterial inhibitors in existence (haam yu, lop yook, jerky, corned beef, bacalau, etc...) and has been used as a preservative since the dawn of civilization.

[origamicrane]

just for geeky fun I measured the ph of the different solutions

lemon juice 2.3

vinegar 3.1

baking powder 6.5

alcohol 8.5

Lye water 14

so it seems that the quality of the crackling is proportional to the alkalinity of the liquid.

[Carlovski]

Origamicrane - can we nominate you for a Nobel prize?

Fantastic dedication to porky goodness!

[origamicrane]

Hi

Finally had time to try this again.

This time it was Lye Water versus Vodka.

This time I used a 45 blade jaccard to spike the skin, I must have passed the jaccard over the skin about 80-100 times so we are talking 4000 puncture holes

Then as previous poured a kettle of hot water on the skin.

Patted it dry with paper towels.

Rubbed 3 teaspoon of salt into the skin.

Then brushed one side with Lye Water and the other side with 40% Vodka.

Hung it above the restaurant stove for 2 days to dry.

Just before cooking sprinkled another teaspoon of salt evenly over the skin and

cooked it in the oven for 40 minutes as previous.

Like last time the lye water crackling started to rise and peel away from the meat.

Where as the vodka side crackling didn't rise away from the meat.

You can see the big blister in the above photo.

The lye water side had small and very even blistering and a light yellow colouring.

The vodka side blistering was not even but was more pronounced with bigger blisters and had a darker red/brown colouring.

The lye water side crackling was crisp but was definitely harder and tougher.

The vodka side crackling had a lighter crunch and formed a thicker crackling but with less density.

But the real difference was in the flavour.

The vodka side crackling tasted a lot, lot better.

The lye crackling had an after taste of a cross between burnt oil and soap

probably due to saponification of the fat.

Without a side by side comparison it would have been perfectly acceptable crackling but tasted next to the vodka crackling the lye crackling was almost unpleasant in comparison.

So in the end my conclusion is vodka is the best

Give it a go and let me know if you draw the same conclusions.

I was always more comfortable with the vodka rather then the lye or the baking soda mainly becuase I love drinking vodka and now I have another reason for loving it

My next experiment will be char siu or roast duck, once i have gathered enough test scenarios

Edited March 8, 2008 by origamicrane (log)

[Prawncrackers]

Oooh that looks the best roast yet. Any chance of seeing how it looks chopped up? Using the jaccard gives definitely a better finish than scoring. Where did you get your jaccard from? I fancy using one as my spiked stamp is a real pain to use sometimes. Vodka is going on my shopping list too.

I'm in on the duck experiment btw, my favourite roast to make and the one i'm most proud of ....

However it doesn't mean that it can't be improved with experimentation! Let me know if you'd like any pointers to start off with though

[hzrt8w]

I'm in on the duck experiment btw, my favourite roast to make and the one i'm most proud of ....  

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Prawncrackers:

Beautiful duck! When you roast your duck did you hang it vertically? Do you have enough room to do so in your oven (what kind of oven do you use)? If not, how did you hang the duck?

[Prawncrackers]

Thanks Ah Leung Gor! Best not to hijack this thread methinks, I will start a new topic and share my recipe, hopefully Origamicrane will post the results of his experiments on there too.

[origamicrane]

man that duck looks good!!!

yep think i will definitely give that a try next

nope didn't have time to take a photo of the cross section this time

my dad pulled rank and started chopping and eating.

All the workers at the shop were really impressed as the crackling was really good and the meat was still moist, usually our siu yook meat is dry and overcooked not any more.

I doubt I will be able to go to chinatown and eat siu yook any more it just wouldn't compare to homemade!

I want to try a leaner cut of pork next time as would be nice to have a healthier "siu yook"

Jaccards are not really available in the UK and the shops that do sell it only stock the 16 blade version costing £17.

I got my jaccard off ebay from this US seller

http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/tenderizemeat

it was £18.50 and that includes postage, although it does take 14 days to arrive.

It's about 4 times moire expensive then the spiked hammer from china town.

But the jaccard a lot more fun/efficient to use then the spiked hammer, it actually feels like you are preparing a dish rather then beating the crap out of it. Its also great for tenderising other meats.

[muichoi]

I forgot to report the results of my torch/lye version. I did it twice, the first time was brilliant, the second very much less so. So I shall move on to the vodka version, though I suspect that the meat itself is the most important variable.

[origamicrane]

I forgot to report the results of my torch/lye version. I did it twice, the first time was brilliant, the second very much less so. So I shall move on to the vodka version, though I suspect that the meat itself is the most important variable.

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thats interesting did yo do anything different the second time?

or was it just the cut/quality of belly that was different?

[muichoi]

Not too much different, but the second time the rind came almost clean away from the meat, burst and burnt.

[origamicrane]

arr.. i think that proves that the lye causes the rind to peel away from the meat.

Maybe the concentration of the lye is too strong?

anyway when you get a chance to try the vodka please let us know how you get on. I'm hoping you get similar results to me.

For my next one i'm just going do a whole piece with vodka and adjust the cooking times slightly and hopefully third time will be perfect