Copper vs Aluminum

[takadi]

I don't know if this has already been discussed. But anyways, I would love to buy a nice thick copper saute pan, but I wouldn't wanna fork over that much money if an aluminum pan of the same thickness/weight would perform the same job. I'm generally looking for a pan that distributes the heat evenly, has good control, and most importantly to me, can generate very very high heat. The hotter it can go, the better. I guess the only problem here is money. I know aluminum has similar conductivity of copper, but I'm not sure if it'll perform as well in terms of high heat cooking.

[C. sapidus]

Takadi: You may wish to take the time to read slkinsey's excellent eGCI course, Understanding Stovetop Cookware (click). It answers your question in far more detail than I could manage here. Good luck!

[Joe Blowe]

Yes yes! And be sure to click on through to the Q&A at the end of Mr. Kinsey's article -- the issue has been discussed at length...

[takadi]

Thermal diffusivity is interesting, but wasn't addressed much in the Q/A. I can't really visualize the significance of thermal diffusivity. Since aluminum is a close second to copper, does it mean it can generate high temperatures and be able to maintain that high temperature despite adding food? Cast Iron would achieve and maintain high heat only because so little heat is lost due to its low conductivity, and copper would reach also reach similarly high heats but compensate for its heat loss through its high conductivity. So both cast iron and copper are similar in this sense, but their thermal diffusivity differ greatly. Is diffusivity more relevant in terms of how much heat per cubic unit is accumulated per unit of time rather than measuring how hot a pan can get and how hot it will stay with cooking?

[Jean Parquette]

This is a little tangent, but I recently acquired an old copper windsor pan, rather large -- 15 inches from rim to rim around the bottom -- and it needs retinning. Conant Custom Brass used to do it but does no longer. My husband wants to retin this pan, and he is capable, but I want the best directions as to materials and techniques I can get -- don't want to ruin this great pan!

Any suggestions?

[tim]

Thermal diffusivity is interesting, but wasn't addressed much in the Q/A. I can't really visualize the significance of thermal diffusivity.  Since aluminum is a close second to copper, does it mean it can generate high temperatures and be able to maintain that high temperature despite adding food?  Cast Iron would achieve and maintain high heat only because so little heat is lost due to its low conductivity, and copper would reach also reach similarly high heats but compensate for its heat loss through its high conductivity. So both cast iron and copper are similar in this sense, but their thermal diffusivity differ greatly. Is diffusivity more relevant in terms of how much heat per cubic unit is accumulated per unit of time rather than measuring how hot a pan can get and how hot it will stay with cooking?

←

Hi,

Actually copper and cast iron maintain their heat because of their mass. Their relative thermal diffusivity is related to their dissimilar conductivity.

Aluminum has a much lower mass and doesl not maintain high heat in the same way.

I hope this helps.

Tim

[takadi]

Thanks Tim. I guess my craving for a sweet 3 qt SS clad copper saucier isn't going to subside anytime soon =(.

It seems like most All-clad copper pans have a copper core sandwiched between aluminum layers. Are there brands that have all-copper cores clad with very thin stainless steel? (I want there to be as much copper as possible but with the advantage of a non-reactive surface)

[Darcie B]

Thanks Tim. I guess my craving for a sweet 3 qt SS clad copper saucier isn't going to subside anytime soon =(.

It seems like most All-clad copper pans have a copper core sandwiched between aluminum layers. Are there brands that have all-copper cores clad with very thin stainless steel? (I want there to be as much copper as possible but with the advantage of a non-reactive surface)

←

Mauviel has copper cookware with stainless interiors, but they are copper on the outside. It isn't a sandwich, just heavy copper explosion bonded with stainless. Very expensive, very heavy, very durable and oh so beautiful (if you like to polish copper that is). I know there are other copper mfgs out there but am only familiar with Mauviel. (My DH bought me a rather large set for Christmas several years ago. )

Edit to add: there are different levels in the Mauviel line. For best performance, you want the 2.5mm line.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Darcie B (log)

[takadi]

Thanks Tim. I guess my craving for a sweet 3 qt SS clad copper saucier isn't going to subside anytime soon =(.

It seems like most All-clad copper pans have a copper core sandwiched between aluminum layers. Are there brands that have all-copper cores clad with very thin stainless steel? (I want there to be as much copper as possible but with the advantage of a non-reactive surface)

←

Mauviel has copper cookware with stainless interiors, but they are copper on the outside. It isn't a sandwich, just heavy copper explosion bonded with stainless. Very expensive, very heavy, very durable and oh so beautiful (if you like to polish copper that is). I know there are other copper mfgs out there but am only familiar with Mauviel. (My DH bought me a rather large set for Christmas several years ago. )

Edit to add: there are different levels in the Mauviel line. For best performance, you want the 2.5mm line.

←

Wow I am so incredibly jealous. I've never seen a Mauviel in real life, but whenever I pick up an all-clad one, I feel like I'm sinning.

Just for the sake of being too lazy to polish copper, are there other ones that have SS throughout the entire exterior but don't have aluminum?

[slkinsey]

Darcie B: As chance would have it, all of the stainless/copper bimetal is manufactured by Falk Culinair, which developed the process and owns the patent. Even more interesting is the fact that Bourgeat copper cookware is manufactured by Mauviel using Falk Culinair's bimetal.

takadi: As others have mentioned, copper pans have a higher thermal capacity than aluminum pans of the same size/shape/configuration. That said, if what you really want is a saute pan, and you intend to use it for sauteing and other high-heat applications, you can do even better with a disk-bottom pan that has a heavy stainless bottom and an extra-thick aluminum base. Several manufacturers offer aluminum bases between 5 mm and 7 mm thick.

[Margo]

Just for the sake of being too lazy to polish copper, are there other ones that have SS throughout the entire exterior but don't have aluminum?

←

Heresy==> Don't polish your copper.

I don't. Mine has a dull patina that seems stable--that is, it hasn't gotten darker and darker and hasn't built up in thickness. I could bring it back to shiny with a little salt and vinegar. But it doesn't bother me. And it doesn't affect the performance of the pan.

[takadi]

Darcie B:  As chance would have it, all of the stainless/copper bimetal is manufactured by Falk Culinair, which developed the process and owns the patent.  Even more interesting is the fact that Bourgeat copper cookware is manufactured by Mauviel using Falk Culinair's bimetal.

takadi:  As others have mentioned, copper pans have a higher thermal capacity than aluminum pans of the same size/shape/configuration.  That said, if what you really want is a saute pan, and you intend to use it for sauteing and other high-heat applications, you can do even better with a disk-bottom pan that has a heavy stainless bottom and an extra-thick aluminum base.  Several manufacturers offer aluminum bases between 5 mm and 7 mm thick.

←

Thanks for the reply Kinsey. Do you have a range of prices for how much one of those would cost in comparison to its copper counterparts? Are there any brand names you can throw out there? And are there differences between disk bottom and straight gauges? I assume that straight gauges have a thinner bottom but have the material more dispersed throughout the pan (would that make it more expensive?).

Edited September 27, 2007 by takadi (log)

[slkinsey]

Takadi, most of this is explained in my egci class, which others have already referenced in this thread. So, rather than rehashing that material here, I'll direct you to tha thread.

[takadi]

haha yes sorry about that, I actually just read most of the Q/A thread. I preferably would like a pan with high heat capacity, but I'm really looking for an all purpose pan. It sounds to me like the perfect lifetime all-purpose pan would be a straight-gauge very heavy, large, wide saucier type pan with SS interior (preferably exterior too but I haven't found one suitable yet).

Right now, I just set my sights on making the perfect steak and sauce. I bought a cast iron pan specifically to form the crust for the steak, but later figured out that cast iron is terrible at making reduction sauces from the leftover fond. While a thick disk bottom aluminum might do a good job at forming the crust, is it suitable for sauces and reductions? I feel that copper is really the only one that can really do the job because it can form that desired crust while at the same time is responsive enough for a sauce afterwards.

I'm not really afraid of shelling out cash because this will be a pan to keep for a lifetime and a pan I plan to do most jobs with, but if there's a pan out there that can do the same job, if not better, at a cheaper price, I'll set my sights on that one.

[slkinsey]

In what way is the cast iron pan bad for making the reduction sauce? If you're worried about getting off-flavors from the iron, you can always deglaze and then pour the liquid out of the cast iron pan into a small saucepan for further reduction/manipulation. Personally, I don't find that these sauces take long enough or contain enough acid that it's an issue.

[takadi]

Well, it might have to do with my lack of skill, but I always find myself either burning the sauce or having it way too watery. I just find myself constantly having to adjust to the slow responsiveness or the residual heat, it just seems like a huge hassle to make a sauce. And off flavors do pop up sometimes if I cooked something in the pan previously that was pungent, like curry.

Anyways, this issue is not as life and death as it seems. It's not that cast iron is unusable, but in any case I was merely scoping out for an ideal pan to keep for life. But if I don't have to pay as much for copper to get the same results with aluminum, that makes the pan worth much more to me.

[Darcie B]

Just for the sake of being too lazy to polish copper, are there other ones that have SS throughout the entire exterior but don't have aluminum?

←

Heresy==> Don't polish your copper.

I don't. Mine has a dull patina that seems stable--that is, it hasn't gotten darker and darker and hasn't built up in thickness. I could bring it back to shiny with a little salt and vinegar. But it doesn't bother me. And it doesn't affect the performance of the pan.

←

I wish I didn't have to, but for now I am stuck with an electric smoothtop, and they don't even want you to use copper, but I do. However, if I don't polish the copper, it really messes up the glass/ceramic/whatever surface. I can't wait to have gas again (boy that didn't come out right)

[paulraphael]

Mauviel has copper cookware with stainless interiors, but they are copper on the outside. It isn't a sandwich, just heavy copper explosion bonded with stainless. Very expensive, very heavy, very durable and oh so beautiful (if you like to polish copper that is). I know there are other copper mfgs out there but am only familiar with Mauviel. (My DH bought me a rather large set for Christmas several years ago. )

Edit to add: there are different levels in the Mauviel line. For best performance, you want the 2.5mm line.

←

I love the Mauviel 2.5mm.

Falk and Bourgeat make pans out of the exact same material. It's all stupid expensive right now, unfortunately.

aluminum has excellent cooking properties. I have pans made of heavy copper, heavy aluminum, and thin aluminum clad in stainless. They all work well. Copper seems somewhat nicer for saucepans and for large saute pans. But the other materials work well ... I never feel that they're holding me back.

[slkinsey]

It's all stupid expensive right now, unfortunately.

There was, unfortunately, a fairly narrow window during which time one could buy stainless lined heavy copper cookware for relatively low prices. Ten years ago, there was only Bourgeat and Mauviel available in the US. The former was priced egergiously high and the former only somewhat less so. Then in 1999 Falk Culinair began selling in the States for far less, and this rationalized the market. That was a great time for buying copper cookware. Back then, however, copper cost only around $0.70 per pound and a dollar was worth around 1.2 Euros. Now copper is more than $3.00 per pound, and a dollar is worth only around 0.73 Euros. The large change in copper prices as well as the dramatic drop in the dollar's value with respect to the Euro have resulted in a fairly steep increase in the price of stainless lined heavy copper cookware.

[budrichard]

The principle value of the higher conductivity of copper over aluminum is the ability to transfer more btu's in the same amount of time. Therefore your pan/pot will heat faster but not hotter. You can also regulate temperature much faster with copper. The highest temperature a pan/pot can achieve is a function of the temperature of your source i.e. gas flame. This temperature drops between the source and the inside of the pan/pot as the heat transfers through the material of the pot/pan because it is the temperature differential that causes heat transfer.

I have a complete set of Falk Culinair and have thrown everything else out. Because copper is denser than aluminum, some of the pieces are very heavy but the Falk has proved to be industructable.

Most of the aluminum cookware out there is low priced junk. Some like AllClad appears to be well made although the Copper Core is not really copper cookware. I purchased the AllClad for my daughter because she just cannot handle the heavy Falk.-Dick

[Matt_T]

I've been shopping for saute pans lately, spent some time at various sellers measuring the thickness of disk bottoms...

In the 5 qt size the Tramontina Covered Deep Saute at Costco is an amazing value. It is all-stainless exterior with a 7mm thick encapsulated aluminum bottom. The thick bottom makes this pan quite heavy but it does a great job searing meat and distributing heat. Riveted handles are hollow cast stainless. The rolled rim is a very nice feature that's unusual in this price range....most competing pans have rough edges along their stamped rims that will scratch backspalshes and cabinetry. I have used this pan extensively since buying it a couple of months ago and recommend it highly. An absolute steal at ~$30 including a good-fitting stainless cover.

I wish Tramontina made a similar pan in 3-qt. Since they don't, or at least I haven't been able to find it, I'll have to say the best 3-qt saute I've seen in the moderate price range is in Emeril's stainless line, made by All-Clad. It too has a nice thick bottom and apparently good construction. I'll probably pick one up when it I see it on sale, as I can't bring myself to pay $80 when I got the larger Tramontina for 30.

A budget contender in this category is the Ecko Eterna "skillet," which is straight-sided and really a saute to my eye. It is all-stainless with 5-6mm aluminum bottom and rolled rim. The stamped stainless handle is stay-cool but feels a little flimsy, especially on the 5 qt. Despite the flimsy feel I can report that a couple of Eterna saucepans with identical handles are holding up fine after 2-3 years of very rugged use at our firehouse, and the bottom while not as thick as the Tramontina is still thick enough to avoid hot spots over high heat. $22 for the 3-qt, 10" size and $30 for the 5 qt, 12 inch, last I saw at the Farberware outlet store.

MT

[paulraphael]

with aluminum it's a good idea to pay attention to the thickness, but don't be seduced into assuming thicker is better. A thicker pan will heat very evenly, and will have excellent heat retention, but the thermal mass can become so high that it will take a long time to heat up, and you'll sacrifice responsiveness.

i like my old calphalon pieces for larger pots (a rondeau and a medium stock pot) but i've replaced the 10" fry pan with a thinner, lighter all clad. The all clad comes to temperature about twice as fast and is way more responsive. The physics suggest that won't heat as evenly, but for a pan this size, especially one that's usually in motion, I can't tell the difference.

I prefer the stainless cooking surface to plain or anodized aluminum. I also find that a light pan in this size is better balanced for tossing food than a heavy aluminum or copper one.

for a large saute pan, i haven't found anything that performs as well as heavy copper.

[slkinsey]

Paul makes a good point regarding thickness and responsivity.

That said, if what you really would like to do is saute, which is a high heat cooking task that doesn't require particularly fast responsiveness, I think it makes sense to go with an extra-thick aluminum pad. A 7 mm aluminum base has a very large thermal capacity which means that you won't lose peak heat when you're shaking a lot of ingredients around in the pan, and also means that you'll get a good result searing steaks and other large cuts of meat. Because the base is aluminum and not something like iron, it will still be plenty responsive for the tasks one is likely to want to do in a saute pan.

On the other hand, most home cooks don't really saute.

[paulraphael]

Paul makes a good point regarding thickness and responsivity.

That said, if what you really would like to do is saute, which is a high heat cooking task that doesn't require particularly fast responsiveness ...

but making the pan sauce often does!

[slkinsey]

Paul makes a good point regarding thickness and responsivity.

That said, if what you really would like to do is saute, which is a high heat cooking task that doesn't require particularly fast responsiveness ...

but making the pan sauce often does!

How so? I don't see how making a pan sauce would require a level of responsiveness beyond what is achievable in a saute pan with a 7 mm thick aluminum base. Again, we're not talking about something like cast iron with low thermal conductivity. Aluminium has excellent thermal conductivity, and my experience is that aluminum pans with a 7 mm base are responsive enough for the kinds of things one does in a saute pan. After all, we're not tempering chocolate or making Hollandaise sauce in an eleven-inch saute pan.

Edited October 1, 2007 by slkinsey (log)