Reflections on Ray's Pizza

[Fat Guy]

As many of you may recall, there was a time when Ray's pizza restaurants proliferated throughout the city, and controversy ensued. There were several news stories over a period of years -- from the mid-1980s through the mid-1990s -- about which was the original, which was the best, and the various lawsuits over use of the name.

Ray's was an iconic New York pizza phenomenon. For example, in 1994, the New York Times ran a story by Michael Kaufman that began:

"IT'S got nothing to do with us," said Frank, the man behind the counter at the One and Only Famous Ray's of Greenwich Village at 11th Street and Avenue of the Americas. He was responding to questions about the headlines describing the arrest of 79 people charged with being in an international drug ring operating from Famous Original Ray's Pizzeria at 686 Third Avenue, near 43d Street.

"No kidding," said Harry, the counterman at World Famous Ray's Pizza on Avenue of the Americas and 17th Street, cheerily. "Must have been some other Ray. There's more Rays selling pizza than there are Docs playing cards."

In 1991, John Tierney announced:

The war of the Rays is under way -- lawyers are in the process of filing suits -- and it threatens to engulf dozens of pizzerias in New York, New Jersey, Georgia, Arizona and probably other states. It features three rival Rays who have set aside their historical differences and formed a coalition to trademark the name, eliminate Ray pretenders and deliver Ray's New-York-style pizza around the world.

In 1987, also in the Times, William Geist investigated the question of which was the original Ray's.

Et cetera.

There are still plenty of pizzerias named Ray's, but today nobody who is passionate about pizza in New York really pays attention to any of them. Still, to this day I often field questions from prospective tourists, or even from reporters or editors who should know better, about Ray's. To the average person coming to town, New York pizza is defined not by the original Patsy's, or the original Totonno's, or any of the new wave of serious pizzerias, but by the permutations of Ray's.

During the relevant time period, I ate my weight in Ray's pizza. To me, Ray's pizza always meant the Ray's on the corner of 11th Street and Sixth Avenue (er, Avenue of the Americas). While this Ray's does not actually have the best claim to being the original, it was as best I could tell the most famous Ray's back in the day, and probably still is.

And so, a few days back, I found myself walking through Greenwich Village and there, on the opposite corner, was Ray's:

A bit worn down, and -- if memory serves -- about half the size it was in its heyday, Ray's was full of people eating pizza. I was on my way to a lunch date, but I just had to get a slice. It had been, I don't know, somewhere around 15 years since I'd last had a slice there.

It took me back. It seems to me that little has changed about the Ray's slice over the years. It tasted exactly as I remembered it, with its thick covering of gooey, runny cheese, its sweet tomato sauce and it's soft, foldable crust. You know, I really enjoyed it. Were I not about to have lunch at a restaurant, I'd have had a second slice.

[docsconz]

This topic is a walk down memory lane. I practically lived at the Ray's on 11th St. back when I was in H.S. and home from college. I would love nothing more than grab a slice or two before heading to a jazz concert at the Village Gate. Of course it has been quite some time since that heyday and quite some time since I have been back. It will also probably be quite some time before I return in the future if ever.

Some pizze are known for their crust. Others are known for their sauce and still others for the quality and variety of their toppings. Rays (on 11th St) was known for the quantity of cheese on each slice. It was massive and full of delicious ooze. I can't pinpoint the decline, but when it happened it was rapid. The place went from having long but fast moving lines out the door to no wait seemingly overnight. At that time it deserved to be considered the face of NY pizza and certainly was my favorite. While it may not have been the original, it was certainly the one that all the others took the name from to try to ride on their coat-tails. I suspect that may have been one of the things that ultimately led to their demise as a great pizza place. One they probably figured that people would not know the difference and cut back on the quality of their product and two, people did notice their and at the others and simply stopped going the way they had. The name is probably still enough to generate sufficient cash flow even if it is no longer backed up.

[LPShanet]

This topic is a walk down memory lane. I practically lived at the Ray's on 11th St. back when I was in H.S. and home from college. I would love nothing more than grab a slice or two before heading to a jazz concert at the Village Gate. Of course it has been quite some time since that heyday and quite some time since I have been back. It will also probably be quite some time before I return in the future if ever.

Some pizze are known for their crust. Others are known for their sauce and still others for the quality and variety of their toppings. Rays (on 11th St) was known for the quantity of cheese on each slice. It was massive and full of delicious ooze. I can't pinpoint the decline, but when it happened it was rapid. The place went from having long but fast moving lines out the door to no wait seemingly overnight. At that time it deserved to be considered the face of NY pizza and certainly was my favorite. While it may not have been the original, it was certainly the one that all the others took the name from to try to ride on their coat-tails. I suspect that may have been one of the things that ultimately led to their demise as a great pizza place. One they probably figured that people would not know the difference and cut back on the quality of their product and two, people did notice their and at the others and simply stopped going the way they had. The name is probably still enough to generate sufficient cash flow even if it is no longer backed up.

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Ray's holds a real soft spot for me, too, although my main Ray's was the one on Prince Street, which does hold a somewhat reasonable claim to being the "original" (or at least one of the ones that have to be part of the discussion), not that it really matters. While not a cheese-monster like some, the Prince Street Ray's had a dependably good crust, and nicely balanced levels of ingredients. Nothing earth-shattering, but always good, and therefore comforting and worthy of love. I haven't been back in a few years, but I'd be surprised if it was as consistently good as it used to be. Which brings me to a related observation and some questions:

It seems to me (possibly through my permanently rose colored glasses) that pizza in NYC in general used to be much more consistently good than it is now. I'm not talking about "the best" in town, but about the fact that you could walk into any local mom & pop pizza place in any neighborhood (or any of the various permutations called "Ray's") and have a pretty darn good slice of pizza, that while average for NYC, was light years better than what you could get in any other city in the U.S. I can tell you that I learned this the hard way when I went away to college. I'm wondering aloud what the possible reasons for this are, assuming that it's not just a figment of my imagination. Several factors seem to be at play:

1. Various national chains have finally come to NY that previously never could get a foothold here for many years.

2. There are a higher percentage of young out-of-towners who have come to live here, who may not know the difference between good pizza and chain crap. It still amazes me that anyone living in Manhattan would willingly order from Domino's, Papa John's or any other similar joint, but it happens...a lot.

3. Many of the neighborhood pizza places have been supplanted by said chains, as there appear to be fewer of the "indies".

4. Many of the pizza places that remain are no longer run by Italians or Italian-Americans. Initially, it seemed that the Greeks were taking over the pizza world, but now it's almost anyone other than Italians...various Middle Eastern groups, Asians, etc. Also, many of the pizza places are actually just "areas" within delis and other types of places.

Have the great local places just been run out of business or have the owners forgotten how to make great pizza?

Another thing I've noticed is that among the places that are frequently mentioned as having great slices, at least as far as tourists and B&Ters know (such as Joe's on Bleecker and Carmine, Ray's, Ben's, etc.), many will turn out a really decent slice one day and a terrible one the next. Why are they all so inconsistent now? I don't remember them being that way in the past.

As a kid, I remember hearing a rumor/urban legend that all the mom-and-pop pizza places were forced to buy their ingredients from the Mafia. As members of the Italian-American community, the pizza place owners supposedly had to go along with this strongarm situation, and complied, which meant that all the seemingly independent pizza places were getting their ingredients from the same supplier(s). I have no reason to believe this is true (or false), but it sure would explain a lot! It might also explain why the pizza making business appears to have slipped away from its former glory. And, if true, might be the one case I can think of where organized crime was a good thing, and needs to be brought back:)

Thoughts? Somehow, I think I may have opened myself up for all sorts of attacks, but at least the discussion should be interesting.

Edited September 19, 2007 by LPShanet (log)

[Fat Guy]

I fundamentally agree that the slice at the average slice shop used to be a lot better. Some thoughts on your theories, and a couple of theories of my own:

1.  Various national chains have finally come to NY that previously never could get a foothold here for many years.

I think the decline of NYC pizza well predates the arrival of Domino's. If anything I think the causation is the other way around: the chains got a toehold when pizza got bad enough for the chains not to seem so bad.

2.  There are a higher percentage of young out-of-towners who have come to live here, who may not know the difference between good pizza and chain crap.  It still amazes me that anyone living in Manhattan would willingly order from Domino's, Papa John's or any other similar joint, but it happens...a lot.

Again, chronologically, New York has always been heavily populated by young out-of-towners. They have been pouring in for centuries. In addition, the selling proposition of the chains isn't -- at least in the NYC context -- the quality of the pies. It's the consumer experience. Domino's is consistent and delivery is quick and efficient, performed by uniformed employees carrying "heatwave" bags. You can order online. The stores keep your information in a computer so you only have to give your phone number when you order. Order-fulfillment accuracy is extremely high. There are coupons available. Whereas, when you order from most single-establishment pizzerias, the ordering and delivery experience is unpredictable and often unpleasant.

3.  Many of the neighborhood pizza places have been supplanted by said chains, as there appear to be fewer of the "indies".

This hasn't been my casual observation. In the neighborhood where I grew up, the Upper West Side, there seem to me to be just as many or more single-establishment pizzerias as there were when I was a kid. Indeed, several of the same ones are around -- they're just not as good.

4.  Many of the pizza places that remain are no longer run by Italians or Italian-Americans.  Initially, it seemed that the Greeks were taking over the pizza world, but now it's almost anyone other than Italians...various Middle Eastern groups, Asians, etc.  Also, many of the pizza places are actually just "areas" within delis and other types of places.

When I was a kid in the 1970s there were already plenty of pizzerias owned by non-Italians, but the pizza was still good. I don't believe the ethnicity of a restaurant owner or cook means very much. Anyway, it's not like the pizza at the average New York slice shop has much to do with Italy.

Another thing I've noticed is that among the places that are frequently mentioned as having great slices, at least as far as tourists and B&Ters know (such as Joe's on Bleecker and Carmine, Ray's, Ben's, etc.), many will turn out a really decent slice one day and a terrible one the next.  Why are they all so inconsistent now?  I don't remember them being that way in the past.

I remember it always being that way. Even at the best pizza places in my neighborhood, you had to pick your time of day carefully, and there was plenty of variation day to day.

As a kid, I remember hearing a rumor/urban legend that all the mom-and-pop pizza places were forced to buy their ingredients from the Mafia.  As members of the Italian-American community, the pizza place owners supposedly had to go along with this strongarm situation, and complied, which meant that all the seemingly independent pizza places were getting their ingredients from the same supplier(s).  I have no reason to believe this is true (or false), but it sure would explain a lot!  It might also explain why the pizza making business appears to have slipped away from its former glory.  And, if true, might be the one case I can think of where organized crime was a good thing, and needs to be brought back:)

I think the old mafia has been replaced by the new organized crime of Wisconsin pizza cheese. If I had to suggest the single most important cause of the decline of the average New York slice, it would be the spread of cheap cheese. Wisconsin pizza cheese was cheaper and easier to use -- albeit flavorless -- than the mozzarella products pizzerias were working with before. It was hard to resist, especially since everybody else was adopting it.

Also, I think toppings and the economics thereof have contributed to the ruination of average slice-shop pizza. When I was a kid, there were plain pies only in the display case, and it was possible for a pizzeria to be profitable just by selling a lot of those pies. If you wanted a topping, there were a few available and they'd put a topping on a slice and heat the slice. Now there are all these elaborate pies, mostly premade, and that's where the money is. That money is necessary to support increased rent, labor costs, etc. The business model of a slice shop today can't depend on selling high-quality plain pies. Rather, it depends on selling slices with toppings at a significantly higher price. Plain pies are simply the support mechanisms for the toppings. They don't have to be good.

[docsconz]

This topic has gone beyond nostalgia for a favorite old place no longer in its glory to something truly interesting! I think both LP Shanet's and Fat Guy's ruminations have been largely on target, but I'll add my $0.02 anyway. To keep the size of the post box from getting out of hand I will post my response to individual points individually.

I fundamentally agree that the slice at the average slice shop used to be a lot better. Some thoughts on your theories, and a couple of theories of my own:

1.  Various national chains have finally come to NY that previously never could get a foothold here for many years.

I think the decline of NYC pizza well predates the arrival of Domino's. If anything I think the causation is the other way around: the chains got a toehold when pizza got bad enough for the chains not to seem so bad.

The chains may have a presence here and may have influenced the decline if for no other reason than price pressure, but ultimately I don't think they are the cause for the decline

[docsconz]

2.  There are a higher percentage of young out-of-towners who have come to live here, who may not know the difference between good pizza and chain crap.  It still amazes me that anyone living in Manhattan would willingly order fromDomino's, Papa John's or any other similar joint, but it happens...a lot.

Again, chronologically, New York has always been heavily populated by young out-of-towners. They have been pouring in for centuries. In addition, the selling proposition of the chains isn't -- at least in the NYC context -- the quality of the pies. It's the consumer experience. Domino's is consistent and delivery is quick and efficient, performed by uniformed employees carrying "heatwave" bags. You can order online. The stores keep your information in a computer so you only have to give your phone number when you order. Order-fulfillment accuracy is extremely high. There are coupons available. Whereas, when you order from most single-establishment pizzerias, the ordering and delivery experience is unpredictable and often unpleasant.

The population flux may be a contributing factor. In past times, outside of ethnic Italians and a more Bohemian influx looking for an inexpensive good meal, I'm not sure pizza was a particularly popular item amongst those coming to the city striving to be or in upper income brackets such as those working in the financial industry. Because of the reputation and legend of NY pizza and the general acceptance of pizza throughout the US (mostly mediocre or awful), I think that pizza is now a food eaten at least occasionally by almost everyone. Ironic, if true that at what may be its height of popularity as a food item, it is largely at it's most dismal state ever.

[docsconz]

3.  Many of the neighborhood pizza places have been supplanted by said chains, as there appear to be fewer of the "indies".

This hasn't been my casual observation. In the neighborhood where I grew up, the Upper West Side, there seem to me to be just as many or more single-establishment pizzerias as there were when I was a kid. Indeed, several of the same ones are around -- they're just not as good.

I agree with Steven here. Outside of the tourist areas I don't see too much of a presence of the national chains.

[Nathan]

hmm...well, going to the young out-of-towner's point.

1. my roommates from Texas order Domino's (in their defense I don't know who else delivers pizza at all to our building...and Domino's provides the breadsticks and soda and the like necessary for watching the game).

2. I don't order from Domino's but not having been raised on the east coast...I've never gotten into the plain pie. just don't like it. (I do enjoy the Neopolitan marinara (one of the two main varieties of Neopolitan pizza)....which omits the cheese altogether....but this has apparently never caught on in NY.)

[docsconz]

4.  Many of the pizza places that remain are no longer run by Italians or Italian-Americans.  Initially, it seemed that the Greeks were taking over the pizza world, but now it's almost anyone other than Italians...various Middle Eastern groups, Asians, etc.  Also, many of the pizza places are actually just "areas" within delis and other types of places.

When I was a kid in the 1970s there were already plenty of pizzerias owned by non-Italians, but the pizza was still good. I don't believe the ethnicity of a restaurant owner or cook means very much. Anyway, it's not like the pizza at the average New York slice shop has much to do with Italy.

Although not necessarily due to the decline of the Mafia, I think the decline in ownership, management and cooking of Italians and Italian-Americans has an awful lot to do with the change in the quality of NY pizza just as it has with the decline of Italian food in NYC outside of the fine restaurants. What we largely came to know as "New York style" pizza was largely due to the recipes, skills, techniques and ingredients brought over from Italy, especially by those from Campania. While the end result is similar to Neapolitan style pizze, it was obviously different, the result of a number of social and demographic factors.

My late father, a general practice physician, had his office in our Park Slope, Brooklyn home. One of my favorite patients of his, if not my favorite, was an Italian pizzaiolo from Campania with a nearby pizzeria. Whenever he would would come by to see my father he would always bring several of the absolute best pizze and calzones that one could ever want hot out of the oven. In addition, we used to love going to the pizzeria where we were treated like royalty. The neighborhood changed, he got old and handed the business to his son-in-law (also from Italy), but the pizze still remained delicious with the same quality ingredients and care. It has been some time since I have been back, so I don't know if it has changed or not, but it was the one pizza growing up that I liked even more than Ray's. Ironically, the name of the pizzeria was one that also was confusing secondary to its independent ubiquity - Lenny's.

Better or worse, the pizze in NYC now are different. One of the main changes in my mind was a change in focus on ingredient quality that went away with the loss of the Italian run pizzerie. Nevertheless, a few of the old style pizzerie live on and these are the ones that are still celebrated - the diFara's, Totonno's, Grimaldi's and Patsy's of the city.

[docsconz]

Another thing I've noticed is that among the places that are frequently mentioned as having great slices, at least as far as tourists and B&Ters know (such as Joe's on Bleecker and Carmine, Ray's, Ben's, etc.), many will turn out a really decent slice one day and a terrible one the next.  Why are they all so inconsistent now?  I don't remember them being that way in the past.

I remember it always being that way. Even at the best pizza places in my neighborhood, you had to pick your time of day carefully, and there was plenty of variation day to day.

I wouldn't argue with this. The best by the slice places like Ray's were great because the high turnover always led to a fresh pie rather than one sitting under the glass all day. A re-heated slice can still be great if it is re-heated enough.

[docsconz]

As a kid, I remember hearing a rumor/urban legend that all the mom-and-pop pizza places were forced to buy their ingredients from the Mafia.  As members of the Italian-American community, the pizza place owners supposedly had to go along with this strongarm situation, and complied, which meant that all the seemingly independent pizza places were getting their ingredients from the same supplier(s).  I have no reason to believe this is true (or false), but it sure would explain a lot!  It might also explain why the pizza making business appears to have slipped away from its former glory.  And, if true, might be the one case I can think of where organized crime was a good thing, and needs to be brought back:)

I think the old mafia has been replaced by the new organized crime of Wisconsin pizza cheese. If I had to suggest the single most important cause of the decline of the average New York slice, it would be the spread of cheap cheese. Wisconsin pizza cheese was cheaper and easier to use -- albeit flavorless -- than the mozzarella products pizzerias were working with before. It was hard to resist, especially since everybody else was adopting it.

Even if the Mafia controlled the distribution, the Mafia was composed of a number of fiefdoms. I doubt that there would ever have been just one city-wide supplier of ingredients or other supplies. this is more likely to be the case today as Fat Guy alludes to.

[docsconz]

Also, I think toppings and the economics thereof have contributed to the ruination of average slice-shop pizza. When I was a kid, there were plain pies only in the display case, and it was possible for a pizzeria to be profitable just by selling a lot of those pies. If you wanted a topping, there were a few available and they'd put a topping on a slice and heat the slice. Now there are all these elaborate pies, mostly premade, and that's where the money is. That money is necessary to support increased rent, labor costs, etc. The business model of a slice shop today can't depend on selling high-quality plain pies. Rather, it depends on selling slices with toppings at a significantly higher price. Plain pies are simply the support mechanisms for the toppings. They don't have to be good.

←

Amen.

[slkinsey]

I'd say that Steven has hit the nail squarely on the head in blaming the general decline on crappy, rubbery Wisconsin pizza cheese. Twenty years ago, I don't think the economic factors were there (massive industry consolidation combined with, until the relatively recent spike in fuel prices, ridiculously inexpensive transportation) in favor of Wisconsin pizza cheese.

Most likely, most of the NYC pizza places in the 50s-60s were getting their cheese locally, in the 70s-80s they were getting their cheese regionally, and starting in the 90s going forward they were getting their cheese nationally. This general movement away from local and artisinal/small batch to national and industrial had to have been accompanied by a corresponding decline in quality, which would be especially noticable with respect to pizza made in the "pile on the cheese" style.

Consider also that there was surely a similar shift in other ingredients. In the 50s-60s, I'm sure most pizza places were making their own pizza sauce. Nowadays, it's rare to see a "slice shop" level pizza place in the City that even has a stove in evidence. They're all getting cans of pre-made "pizza sauce" and perhaps (but not always) tweaking it with things like dried herbs and garlic powder. Continuing in that direction, I can't imagine that all pizza places in the 50s-60s were using Hormel pepperoni, which is what 95% of them use today.

Nowadays, if a place like Ray's, Original Ray's, Famous Ray's, Famous Original Ray's, Original Famous Ray's or Seriously We're Not Kidding This Is The Authentic Original Famous Ray's wanted to duplicate the quality of 1980, they would have to charge a lot more for a slice. And there's some question in my mind as to whether the jump in quality would be enough that they could continue to compete. Rather, the game seems to be: either you make do with crap Wisconsin pizza cheese and (hopefully) make up the difference as best you can by tweaking your sauce and, as Steven points out, offering an expansive array of interesting toppings, in which case you charge the going price for a slice, or you radically upgrade your ingredients, position yourself as a more "gourmet" pizzeria and charge 50% more.

Honestly, in my opinion, the best thing a place like Ray's could to to improve pizza quality would be to spend twice as much on the cheese and use half as much of it.

[docsconz]

Honestly, in my opinion, the best thing a place like Ray's could to to improve pizza quality would be to spend twice as much on the cheese and use half as much of it.

←

It is a style different than the one you prefer, but back in the day with the cheese they used it had its own charm. Sam, did you ever have it in their glory days?

[slkinsey]

I just don't care for that much cheese, so I doubt I would have liked it. But, of course I believe that the quality was much higher twenty years ago when they used much better cheese. That's the main thrust of my post.

However, the point that I'm making in the part of my post you're quoting is that today they can't use the same amount of cheese and make the economics work unless they use crappy quality Wisconsin pizza cheese. So, if they want to use better quality cheese and produce a better quality slice, they have two choices: 1. use the same gigantic amount of cheese at higher quality and raise their prices accordingly, which I don't think would work economically with their clientele; or 2. use a smaller amount of high quality cheese. Looking at the picture of the slice Steven posted above, I think you could easily cut the volume of cheese by half and still have a generous amount of cheese.

[Fat Guy]

One of the main changes in my mind was a change in focus on ingredient quality that went away with the loss of the Italian run pizzerie. Nevertheless, a few of the old style pizzerie live on and these are the ones that are still celebrated - the diFara's, Totonno's, Grimaldi's and Patsy's of the city.

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I think this comment sort of crosses over categories. Totonno's and Grimaldi's are not slice shops, and while you can get a slice at Patsy's it doesn't follow the mold of a slice shop. Those are whole-pie, brick-oven places and have never really been in the same category as the slice shops.

Patsy's, incidentally, has for awhile not been Italian-American-owned. The original Patsy's in East Harlem is owned by an Albanian from Kosovo named Frank Brija. Likewise, Nick Angelis, who owns various well-regarded pizzerias, is Greek. So I think it's entirely possible for non-Italian-Americans to do good pizza. Whether they choose to is a different story.

Di Fara is an interesting case, because it really is a slice shop, but it has gone through a transformation in recent years. A few years ago, I would have said that Di Fara was a good example of what a lot of the best slice shops all over the city used to be like. But ever since being championed in the press and attracting a citywide audience, Di Fara has upped its game to a more gourmet level, and is now unlike any other pizzeria. It's a unique admixture of an old-style New York slice shop, a nouvelle trendy pizzeria, and a psych ward.

[phaelon56]

However, the point that I'm making in the part of my post you're quoting is that today they can't use the same amount of cheese and make the economics work unless they use crappy quality Wisconsin pizza cheese. 

So, if they want to use better quality cheese and produce a better quality slice, they have two choices:  1. use the same gigantic amount of cheese at higher quality and raise their prices accordingly, which I don't think would work economically with their clientele; or 2. use a smaller amount of high quality cheese. 

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I agree that the ingredient quality is the biggest factor. But I'd be shocked to see even a few of those places change what they're doing. I think the majority of the slice joints and neighborhood pizzerias in NYC most likely don't mix, knead and raise their dough from high quality ingredients. Pre-made ready-to-stretch-and-bake dough is common and that horrid "Grande" cheese blend (about which I have ranted in a number of past posts) is the other major - and even more significant - culprit. For a traditional gooey slice there is no substitute in texture or flavor for whole milk mozzarella. But there's an entire generation or two of people who've never tasted the good stuff (by gooey slice standards) and don't know the difference.

What's that little stand-up slice joint down on the corner by Seventh Avenue South and Father Demo way in the West Village - Joe's? Last time I tried their slices they tasted just like old-school NYC gooey slices.

Our best local pizzerias here in Syracuse (there are a few which maintain high standards) have not deviated from their recipes or their ingredient quality. I know the owner of one such place and his position has always been "I maintain standards and raise prices accordingly as my materials costs and overhead increases - my best customers appreciate quality and they'll keep coming back."

And he's right. A two item 16" round Neapolitan style pies is about $14 (by the way - the recipe came to Syracuse from Staten Island via his longshoreman father who came here in the early 1950's to open a small amusement park). The nearby Pizza Hut and Domino's regularly run specials with coupons where people can get two theoretically similar pizzas for the same price as his one. Yet his business continues to grow.

[Fat Guy]

To me, my recent Ray's-of-Greenwich-Village experience was surprising because it exceeded my expectations for the slice. I certainly remember a period when Ray's pizza declined in quality. But I'm wondering if they did at least a partial reversal at some point, because the slice I just had was a lot more enjoyable than I'd have imagined it would be. Not that the cheese was, or ever was, top of the line. But it was pleasant enough. If anybody is walking around that area, please do grab a slice and let us know your take on it. I'm definitely going to do a repeat, for a reality check.

Back when Ray's was still Ray's, a second branch opened up three blocks from my childhood home on the Upper West Side. It was called "Ray's of Greenwich Village," it was located on the northeast corner of 72nd and Columbus and it was, I believe, the only other branch of the 11th Street/Sixth Avenue store. It didn't last all that long, but I thought the pizza there was a faithful reproduction of the downtown shop's offering.

[Nathan]

unless I'm brain-farting, Joe's is on 6th and Bleecker. it used to be on the corner and then moved slightly north.

after trying that I became assured that I just don't like NY style pizza.

[slkinsey]

The reality is that there are probably at least three distinct styles of "NY Pizza."

[raji]

I was a regular customer of the Rays at 6th and 11th, always considered it the "original" (and, judging by the press posted all over the walls, very much so considered itself the original), and 2 slices of theirs would constitute a full meal and gorging. They would pile on so much cheese that there really was no equal in the city; if you were looking for mounds of cheese. And it tasted great. Then, sometime around 1999, or 2000 or maybe 2002, they started posting up posters about how they were no longer able to offer their cheesy slices because of cheese pricing wars or the influx of the cheap stuff or SOMETHING, maybe someone remembers, and I had to stop going there, the slices were never the same. FG, judging by what you are saying, they've somehow returned to their former glory.

I do believe that well into the 90s, every NYC neighborhood had at least one reliably good to great slice shop and that time has since past. Joe's is no longer on the corner and I don't know if it will ever be the same, but I always considered them the best slice on the island. Ray's was a bit of an anomoly because it was a glutton's slice; the pile of thickly grated cheese that topped their pies was stacked in a huge mountain peak towards the center of them. Not a purist's slice but certainly delightful.

I have to agree with Doc; you will almost certainly enjoy a better slice when served by a crusty, angry old pizzaola like you still find at Fascati's in Brooklyn Heights. I know it's a bit racist but when I walk in and see Middle Easterns or Mexicans making the pies, even if they've been instructed well by the owner, something is just missing.

I think the hot dog shops have proved that if you put out VOLUME of a cheap product, you can still stay in business... so I'm sure the right pizza shop could still survive slinging a constant supply of plain slices...

I think the biggest factor, in my mind, is the end result of the Robert Moses-ification of the city - most of your Italian-Americans have since migrated out to Westchester, Long Island, Staten Island, New Jersey, where you can now reliably find the pizza slices of Manhattan past...

[Nathan]

The reality is that there are probably at least three distinct styles of "NY Pizza."

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no doubt. but the one that seemed strange to me and which I've never gotten used to is the "plain slice" or "pie"....probably doesn't help that I don't really like cheese....(and from a purist perspective, a plain slice wouldn't have cheese...marina v. margherita)

[slkinsey]

...when I walk in and see Middle Easterns or Mexicans making the pies, even if they've been instructed well by the owner, something is just missing.

Patsy's East Harlem -- certainly the best old-NYC-school coal-fired pizza in Manhattan and arguably the best in the City -- is made by Latino pizzaioli.

[raji]

Yeah I was going to mention Patsy's, and it's not the only place that has handed down it's traditions to Latino pizzaioli... there are certain institutions that have well instructed or well supervise their latino pizzaioli and have held up their standards, but I think in general your corner slice-shop has gone mexican pizza, and probably suffers as much from slices aging behind glass as they do from something lacking in their preparation..

[LPShanet]

Oooh, some good points.

I think the decline of NYC pizza well predates the arrival of Domino's. If anything I think the causation is the other way around: the chains got a toehold when pizza got bad enough for the chains not to seem so bad.

Didn't think of that, but makes total sense.

"3.  Many of the neighborhood pizza places have been supplanted by said chains, as there appear to be fewer of the "indies"."

This hasn't been my casual observation. In the neighborhood where I grew up, the Upper West Side, there seem to me to be just as many or more single-establishment pizzerias as there were when I was a kid. Indeed, several of the same ones are around -- they're just not as good..

Although the UWS still has many such places, many other 'hoods have lost them. By count, the UES (where I grew up), for example, now has less than half of the pizza places it used to in certain areas, despite the fact that there are lots of young people living there. And while a few of the ones open in my childhood are still there, most are not. And new ones aren't opening up as often. The same is true in my downtown neighborhood, although we've recently gained a Domino's and a Papa John's. Yuck.

When I was a kid in the 1970s there were already plenty of pizzerias owned by non-Italians, but the pizza was still good. I don't believe the ethnicity of a restaurant owner or cook means very much. Anyway, it's not like the pizza at the average New York slice shop has much to do with Italy.  

I agree that the average NYC slice shop has little to do with Italy in an immediate sense, but others on the chain (Doc?) have pointed out that there is a connection. At the very least, Italian-Americans were the creators of the original NY pizzas, and were for a long time the guardians of the form. While the pizza can stay good, it is often no longer a matter of pride, and is more subject to the economic pressures discussed in this forum. Also, while there was no initial loss of quality, I still think it may have contributed to the long term creep.

I think the old mafia has been replaced by the new organized crime of Wisconsin pizza cheese. If I had to suggest the single most important cause of the decline of the average New York slice, it would be the spread of cheap cheese. Wisconsin pizza cheese was cheaper and easier to use -- albeit flavorless -- than the mozzarella products pizzerias were working with before. It was hard to resist, especially since everybody else was adopting it.

Also, I think toppings and the economics thereof have contributed to the ruination of average slice-shop pizza. When I was a kid, there were plain pies only in the display case, and it was possible for a pizzeria to be profitable just by selling a lot of those pies. If you wanted a topping, there were a few available and they'd put a topping on a slice and heat the slice. Now there are all these elaborate pies, mostly premade, and that's where the money is. That money is necessary to support increased rent, labor costs, etc. The business model of a slice shop today can't depend on selling high-quality plain pies. Rather, it depends on selling slices with toppings at a significantly higher price. Plain pies are simply the support mechanisms for the toppings. They don't have to be good.

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