How do you make an Emulsion!?!?!

[awbrig]

this is the recipe

2 cups cocunut milk

1 cup milk

1 cup lemongrass

simmer 15 min

strain and add tbls rice wine vinegar and lemon juice

use hand held mixer until foamy

well, it never got that classic emulsion look just a few bubbles that pretty much went away when they touched the plate...

did I not blend it enough..it really didnt seem like it was frothy up much at all...

any ideas or what did I do wrong etc...

[Jinmyo]

Add the coconut milk, especially the fat, slowly. Just a bit at first. As it stiffens, add more. Slowly.

That's a lot of lemongrass.

[awbrig]

I didnt add it slowly I just put the can of the milk right in - it did kind of separate a little but seemed to pull together after simmering a bit...was that my problem ...not pouring the coconut milk in more slowly...?

thx

and re to the lemongrass it gets strained out it is just for the infusion...about 8 stalks or so about 4 to 5 inches long

[SobaAddict70]

Its still a lot of lemongrass, even for an infusion.

But hey, its only my opinion. You might try adding some finely minced lemongrass (1 stalk, perhaps less). Cutting things into bits and pieces increases the surface area of what you have to work with. Not to mention, there's less waste.

SA

[Steve Klc]

Brig--a short course on the science of emulsions aside, I'm curious--where's the recipe from and what dish are you trying to do with it?

Also, what kind of immersion blender are you using--a cheapo hand-held stick, like a Krups, with the flat two-pronged metal blade? If so, that blade doesn't actually emulsify or whip air into a mixture--it purees/chops/shreds--like if you had a chunky gazpacho or chunky meat sauce or leek and potato soup and wanted to blend it or cream it.

If you are trying to emulsify--to get a mixture really whipped up and frothy--oh so bubbly and all the rage in fine nouvelle dining these days--you need to use an immersion blender with a whipping or frothing blade or disk. The good stick blenders have sets of these interchangeable blades that you slip on. So if you're trying to do a foam or emulsion--and you don't want to employ the Ferran Adria iSi whipper method--you have to use the right kind of immersion blender to get that cappuccino-style froth or foaminess. It isn't just about fat content and adding ingredients in a certain sequence.

Without the right immersion blender attachment, you'd be better off using a countertop blender instead.

[Fat Guy]

Another example of how the appliance manufacturers sell dumbed-down crap to consumers, often for more money than professionals pay for superior equipment. Not that I blame the manufacturers. Well, maybe a little. But why isn't anybody teaching home cooks the truth about this stuff? Wait a second, now I'm starting to sound like my book proposal.

[Suzanne F]

It would really help if we had the exact recipe rather than a paraphrase, and knew exactly how awbrig did it, with specific instrumentation and all. I say this because the recipe as told to us says: "use hand held mixer until foamy" -- and a "mixer" could be several different tools. Also, "foamy" doesn't necessarily mean emulsified. It's all just too much of a "he said, she said" argument to sort out. Can't really "blame" any method or tool -- or ingredient -- as we have it, and so can't offer advice.

Can you point us toward the recipe, since you can't quote it here? And tell us exacly what you did? That would be a big help to those of us who would like to help you.

In The Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson says this:

EMULSION: a blend of two liquids where one forms tiny droplets which are evenly dispersed in the other.  It is not strictly a mixture, because the two liquids do not actually mix.  The technical term for combinations of this kind is a colloid.  The blend may be stable, although in practice -- and especially in cookery -- emulsions often separate.

(page 274)

The rest of his entry is quite scientifically detailed, but understandable. In Cookwise, Shirley Corriher also has an excellent explanation.

[Bux]

Mayonnaise is a classic emulsion. I wouldn't interchange "foam" and "emulsion." Mayo is not foamy and whipped cream is not really an emulsion, unless you consider the air as being emulsified into the cream. Does that count?

"Hand held mixer" conjures up an imagine of a hand held electric double rotary beater.

When you speak of the "classic emulsion look" were the ingredients emulsified, that is to say no long appearing as separate ingredients. A good vinaigrette is an emulsion, but it won't be frothy.

[Steve Klc]

Bux--yes, mayonnaise is the classic emulsion example trotted out in Food Science 101 articles--emulsions are two liquids combined that don't ordinarily mix. Think oil and water. Aioli is an emulsion--oil droplets into the water content of garlic. Foams, according to the definition police are different--usually combinations of solid and a gaseous element--say whipping air into a meringue or mousse. Most souffles are foams, many cake batters, like a genoise, are considered a foam.

What Adria developed with his iSi Profi whipper are technically foams and foamy emulsions--because they are charged and stabilized with pressurized gas.

To the scientists and Molecular Gastronomy crowd "heavy cream" technically is an emulsion itself--and when you whip cream and add a little sugar, say in making creme chantilly, you're turning it into a "foamy emulsion," where the air bubbles become trapped into an emulsion and are stabilized by--get ready for some more techspeak--surfactants--which are present in the cream.

So, if it isn't hard enough, these terms emulsion, foam, suspension, etc. can overlap as well.

Science and food writers can distract, however, by defining terms out of context, especially if their writing and experiments are removed from the real world. Definitions, in order to help the home cook or pro have to solve problems, to explain and demonstrate meaning--or you haven't really helped with the problem. This is why in this country McGee was so good--he could communicate meaningfully to people in language they could understand.

Back to Brig's problem--while it might be nice to read the definition, it isn't mainly that he does or doesn't know the science lingo, the terminology. What he'd benefit from is help from chefs and pastry chefs in modern kitchens have some familiarity with these techniques. Suzanne is right, we may not know for sure what Brig is trying to do, but one can guess pretty easily--he wants a foamy, frothy, bubbly liquid--and especially from his comment about what happened when he put it on the plate, the very few bubbles just plain bubbled away, leaving liquid. This is what Laurent Tourondel was doing alot of at Cello, what Laurent Gras is doing at the Fifth Floor in SF, what tons of elite chefs are doing today and have tried to do for years.

There's only one way to get it with these ingredients like coconut milk and milk. I've done fruit soups and foamy sauces like this alot--and paired it with pineapple, herbs like basil, yogurt or fromage blanc sorbet, etc. Chefs and pastry chefs work with foams and emulsions and froths all the time--and you've either tried to whip up coconut milk stocks or bases or you haven't, you've either tried frothing milk and observed the differences between 2% and whole milk or you haven't. It's fun to see what works and what doesn't. At least it's fun for me. Then I turn to the scientists for help in figuring out what I observed.

For those of you at home curious, do a test if you have one of those cheapo stick immersion blenders--take 1 cup of 2% milk and put it in a beaker or 4 cup pitcher. Stick your immersion blender in it and whiz--what happens? If you have the metal two-pronged blade and less than 200 watts--nothing much. Put it in a countertop bar blender and whiz--what happens?

Now, when you do this experiment with a good immersion blender like the one I use, from JB Prince, which is also the one Laurent Tourondel used at Cello, with a high RPM and a detachable whipping disk--watch out. In about 20 seconds you'll whip so much air into that 1 C of milk it will overflow your 4 C container--you'll quadruple your volume very quickly. There are inexpensive versions of this advertised on infomercials and I've even seen smaller versions of the blender with whipping disk in department stores--people are using them to froth milk for espressos and cappuccinos. (Of course, what you lose by this method is a taste element--frothing the milk by the steam wand on your espresso machine changes the flavor of the foamed milk as well as foams it.)

Anyway, pour this foamed 2% milk out into a bowl and watch it--it's beautifully viscous, relatively stable and stays frothy for a long time, it's very light and you get alot of servings out of what was originally 1 cup of liquid. Chefs and pastry chefs have their own little tricks and trucs with these mixtures as well--using varying percentages of skim milk, heavy cream, gelatin, egg whites sometimes--to get the foam to do what they want it to do. Warm, cold, how long will it sit in the bowl before it reaches the customer, etc. (You may also find that certain foams only foam or froth once--the proteins get destroyed--and they never re-foam quite well. This is the problem in lax coffee bars which leave pitchers of foamed milk lying around and just try to freshen their milk pitchers up--you lose the micro foam and it just tastes stale.)

So Brig--if by chance you're trying to achieve this, your best hope is with a handheld immersion blender with the whipping disk--it's round, flat, about an inch wide.

And Steve--a potential problem with your observation is that you may be giving the appliance manufacturers too much credit--as in that they actually know how their tools are being used. Like with the Krups or Braun handheld immersion blender--well, it actually does a very good job pureeing chunky squash soup, for instance, and models cost between $20 and $40--and that's the use typically seen on tv shows, right? I doubt the manufacturers knew pastry chefs years ago started using them to temper chocolate or have any idea what Laurent Gras uses to froth up his lobster cappuccino. Pros were using these things, burning out the cheap motors because there wasn't a professional alternative. (You'd be surprised, though, how many pros don't know this technique.) JB Prince had to go to a scientific equipment manufacturer to get them to build a high powered handheld that wouldn't burn out in 3 months. Before Prince secured this model, I'd say I went through 5 of the Krups/Braun models in the past 3 years. I looked at them as disposable.

[awbrig]

Thanks for all the help guys...

First off I am looking to create the emulsion in the sense that is foamy - very Trotter- like ( mostly last year- he doesnt do too much of it now)

I used your basic hand held mixer w 2 beaters.

The recipe goes like this from Trotters Kitchen Sessions...

Simmer the coconut milk (2 cups), milk(1 cup) and lemongrass( 1 cup) for 15 minutes

Strain mixture through sieve and discard lemongrass

return liquid to saucepan add rice wine vinegar and lemon juice and "mix with handheld blender until frothy"

frothy is not what I got I got a somewhat bubbly liquid in which the bubbles disappeared as soon as it hit the plate

From what I ve gathered from you is that I shouldnt use the hand held but use my blender or perhaps my Trotter autographed kitchen aid with the flat paddle?

[polly]

I just had a look at the recipe and i'm thinking, just as a possibility, maybe the coconut liquid needs to be reduced a bit in the simmering. That way the fat in the liquid and the acid could emulsify quite well.

OR, try using coconut cream instead of coconut milk so there is extra fat present to be emulsified.

[Suzanne F]

Ah -- that's it! A regular beater-type mixer doesn't have the speed you need; a stick blender will froth it much better. And contrary to what was said earlier in this thread, even a cheapie Braun or some such will work fine. I've used one on a half-gallon of beurre monté and it did the job. Sure, your canister blender will do even better, but it will also allow/cause the mixture to cool off too much in the transfer from pot to blender and in the mixing. Remember that frothing is beating air into the liquid. By doing it with an immersion blender in the pot, you can maintain a slightly higher level of heat.

Definitely NOT the flat paddle: 1. all that will do is splash it all over your kitchen; 2. it won't whip enough air into it to froth it; and 3. by the time you realize that it won't work, the stuff will have cooled off way too much.

[awbrig]

maybe i should have reduced it a lot further...was that the main problem you think...not reduced enough? thx

[Suzanne F]

From both your descriptions of the recipe, this is an infusion, not a reduction. But Polly's comment makes me wonder: what kind of coconut milk did you use? Regular or "lite?" And what kind of milk milk? If you used less-than-full-fat milks, she's right, there might not have been enough fat in the mixture.

Come to think of it: does the recipe call for canned coconut milk, or are you supposed to make it fresh from a coconut?

So many recipes are incompletely written; they don't give quite enough specifics. I've never looked at any of Trotter's, so I don't know whether that's the case here. But I would expect him to be highly specific. No?

(This is fun: doing detective work while wearing a blindfold.)

[Steve Klc]

No brig--it's not a reduction. It's an infusion first, as Suzanne points out and then foamed--made frothy by whipping air into the mixture. And I always find it's more efficient to take the blindfold off, but hey, different strokes for different folks.

Polly, I think you're going down the wrong road as well with "reducing" and emulsifying the "fat in the liquid and the acid in the mixture." I think you're thinking emulsion/mayonnaise and that's not what's happening here with Brig. It's much simpler than that. (And actually with mayonnaise, the scientists say it is the water content from the egg yolks and from the vinegar which is the key ingredient, without the water you wouldn't get an emulsion with the oil.)

Suzanne, it's very nice and generous of you to try to help, but do you own one of these handheld blenders and have you tried to froth or foam anything with them? Not blend, puree or create an emulsion like the water and butter beurre monte. Have you tried to foam milk at different fat percentages either with an espresso steam wand or an immersion blender? It doesn't appear you have. I've found you can froth or foam any milk with the proper technique--it's the milk protein which allows this to happen rather than the fat content--and if you know what you're doing you can foam any milk from skim to full fat. ("Whipping" cream is different, different from frothing or foaming milk.)

Have you ever tried to create a frothy sauce at home or in one of the restaurants where you worked? Just stuck a handheld blender into something and whizzed to see what happens? Have you worked with canned coconut milk or frozen Ravifruit or Boiron coconut puree or a coconut milk from real coconuts--and observed differences in sauces or soups? Have you observed a difference between foaming "cold" things and "warm" things?" Do share these experiences, otherwise you really are walking around with a blindfold.

Brig, Suzanne, others--if you're curious, take a look in Trotter's Dessert book--he does a different coconut emulsion on p. 160 and there is a beautiful frothy white coconut foam on the plate, around a Macadamia nut chocolate cake.

Here's the money passage:

1 C milk

1 T orange zest

1/2 C toasted unsweetened coconut

"To make the coconut emulsion: Bring the milk, orange zest and coconut to a boil. Remove from the heat, cover, and steep for 30 minutes. Puree the mixture until smooth and strain through a fine-mesh sieve. Warm just prior to serving and mix with a handheld blender until frothy."

Granted Suzanne, "So many recipes are incompletely written; they don't give quite enough specifics." And as I read this--my first question would be, well, how did he want you to "puree" the mixture? And as a home cook I'm not sure--blender? Cuisinart? immersion blender? You and I know all three will work but the home cook doesn't, necessarily. But then Trotter (or probably his recipe writer and tester, Sari Zernich) does specify the handheld blender for the froth, which is nice.

But there is no substitute for direct, hands on experience--it overcomes speculation and perceived shortcomings in recipes. (The fact that I think recipes are over-emphasized or blamed too much anyway could be the subject of another thread.)

And if any of you do get to that point--where you are a little dissatisfied with the foams you are getting, with the bubbles deflating quickly, take the blindfold off and remember this thread about the immersion blender with the whipping disk attachment. And if this really piques your interest, start whipping and frothing all sorts of things. It just may add some spice and texture to your cooking.

And there is nothing quite like a milk or coconut foam in the Adria style--talk about silky smooth perfection.

[Steve Klc]

In case any of you are wondering what I'm talking about--here's a link to Prince so you can see the range of models and prices and yes, even the infamous whipping disk:

http://www.jbprince.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?...&1=267&2=-1&6=2

The cheapo blenders are usually 200 watts. The next step up is the newish Braun "Vario" which is 280 watts and does do a decent job. Detachable stainless steel wand, sanitizes well. It's in department stores and some specialty food stores. I have several and use them for tempering chocolate--and I haven't burnt a motor out yet. (This works, by the way, precisely because the metal blade does not do a good job aerating the mixture, does not whip but a very small percentage of air into the chocolate--it chews up and smoothes out the chunks and bits of chocolate and creates a homogeneous, lump free mixture.)

For foaming--I use Model #P245--the electric handheld homogenizer--which Prince sells for $57.70. Based on my direct hands-on experience, this is the entry level blender for foams and froths.

The Mercedes of handheld immersion blenders, very powerful with a fantastic foaming disk, is the Bamix Gastro--Model# P272 I believe--which is used in Europe alot, it's more shielded and machined for professional kitchens than the P245--but also is significantly more expensive--$157.60 (There is a "home" version of the Bamix that I have seen reasonably priced, with whipping/frothing disk, in Williams Sonoma.)

I don't own one of these, I find the P245 very satisfactory, but have tested the Bamix and the Bamix is what I'd recommend using in a restaurant where you have to foam or froth sauces daily. At home, go with the P245--which includes a whipping disk and the regular metal pureeing attachement--or go with the Braun Vario if you don't care too much about foaming.

For fans of the show, there's also some real Alton Brown-like potential here--stick blender in all sorts of stuff, whiz, report on what happens, them's Good Eats!

[Suzanne F]

SteveK, in spite of my belief that if you wanted to berate me, you should have done it privately: the answer to almost all your questions to me is YES. (I have not worked with frozen Ravifruit or Boiron coconut purée; I've only used fresh coconut, desiccated coconut, or canned [regular and lower-fat] coconut milk. Other frozen purées, yes, but not coconut.) And virtually none of your personal comments to me has anything to do with the Q that awbrig asked.

I was being "very nice and generous" in attempting to answer awbrig's question because I saw very few mentions of what I thought the problem could possibly be. Your first answer did not even question whether or not awbrig really even meant "emulsion" but consisted largely of "blame your cheap equipment." Almost no investigation of the circumstances of the supposed failure. Perhaps you were standing there, reading at the recipe, and watching what awbrig did, step by step. I certainly was not, and so asked for more information. That's what I meant about detective work in a blindfold. (Sorry you chose to misinterpret it.) At no time (until just now) did I attack the answers you gave, and I most certainly did not rudely question your knowledge or experience, as you have done to me. You have been neither helpful to awbrig, nor polite to me.

And some members wonder why others don't post!

[Clerkenwellian]

In case any of you are wondering what I'm talking about--here's a link to Prince so you can see the range of models and prices and yes, even the infamous whipping disk:

http://www.jbprince.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?...&1=267&2=-1&6=2

The cheapo blenders are usually 200 watts.  The next step up is the newish Braun "Vario" which is 280 watts and does do a decent job.  Detachable stainless steel wand, sanitizes well. It's in department stores and some specialty food stores. I have several and use them for tempering chocolate--and I haven't burnt a motor out yet. (This works, by the way, precisely because the metal blade does not do a good job aerating the mixture, does not whip but a very small percentage of air into the chocolate--it chews up and smoothes out the chunks and bits of chocolate and creates a homogeneous, lump free mixture.)

For foaming--I use Model #P245--the electric handheld homogenizer--which Prince sells for $57.70.  Based on my direct hands-on experience, this is the entry level blender for foams and froths.

don't suppose anyone knows where to get hold of one of these babies in the UK?

thanks!

[guajolote]

Scientists can now make water and oil mix without emulsifiers - by removing the gases from the water. Removing the gases from the oil removes the long-range hydrophobic force between the oil molecules.

More Scientific Crap Here

[Steve Martin]

don't suppose anyone knows where to get hold of one of these babies in the UK?

thanks!

The equivalent in the UK is the Bamix. Highly recommended by Gordon Ramsey, though I am not very impressed with it so far.

Frothing cold skimmed milk is all very well, but these things can't seem to foam anything hot.

The Braun is a better blender, but they do not supply a foaming disc.

Check out www.nisbets.co.uk for all cooking needs

I got mine here http://www.bamixuk.com/

[oraklet]

but wasn't steve klc's

"...smaller versions of the blender with whipping disk in department stores - people are using them to froth milk for espressos and cappuccinos."

the right gadget? and dirt cheap, at that.

[Clerkenwellian]

don't suppose anyone knows where to get hold of one of these babies in the UK?

thanks!

The equivalent in the UK is the Bamix. Highly recommended by Gordon Ramsey, though I am not very impressed with it so far.

Frothing cold skimmed milk is all very well, but these things can't seem to foam anything hot.

The Braun is a better blender, but they do not supply a foaming disc.

Check out www.nisbets.co.uk for all cooking needs

I got mine here http://www.bamixuk.com/

thanks

[Clerkenwellian]

but wasn't steve klc's

"...smaller versions of the blender with whipping disk in department stores - people are using them to froth milk for espressos and cappuccinos."

the right gadget? and dirt cheap, at that.

incidentally, maybe I'm being dense, but why on earth would anyone want *cold* frothed milk on their cappucino?

[Jon Tseng]

Could ya chuck in an egg yolk?

(apologies if mentioned already - just sped red the thred)

J

[Jonathan Day]

I have the Bamix Gastro. It's great, but I should have realised that it's designed for larger quantities than I typically make at home. Once you've got enough product that the blending head is fully immersed and there is room for the liquid to flow over it, it works beautifully. But the head itself is very large, so it is ineffective with smaller quantities. There is a disc mixing head, a disc whipping head (which has holes in it to incorporate air into mixtures) and a "blending" head for making purees. It doesn't come with a beaker, as the Baxmix home models do.