Cooking-with-wine myth exploded

[purplewiz]

I always thought this rule was for "cooking wine", and for the following situation:

"By all that's holy, this wine tastes like something that came out of a skunk's nether regions! I won't be drinking THAT!"

"Don't throw it out, we'll cook with it!"

By wine you wouldn't drink, I always thought it meant wine that wasn't drinkable. I've made plenty of fantastic dishes with "picnic" wine - I think this is table wine in other cultures? You know, an everyday wine, it's not what you open to impress a visiting friend who also happens to be a winemaker (I opened a well aged California Cabernet in that instance), it's what you'd drink if you were enjoying a sunny Saturday afternoon in the park - a wine that wouldn't be bad to drink, you probably wouldn't choose it if you were seriously tasting it and looking for nuances of flavor, but if the bottle was knocked over by an overly playful dog it wouldn't break your heart (or wallet). Plain old vin ordinaire.

Marcia.

[Nathan]

the point is...it doesn't even have to be that good. it can be corked...rotgut...etc. (why is this surprising really? there are all sorts of food ingredients that we wouldn't find palatable on their own)

[Magictofu]

I was wondering... does this apply to wine reduction sauces?

I have no doubt that wines used in braising or 'seasoning' do not need to be the fanciest ones... but does it matter in reduction sauces? My guess is not that much as long as you do not start with really bad wines and respect a few basic guidelines (varietals, tanins...)... But I have just heard the opposite! Any thought?

[paulraphael]

I was wondering... does this apply to wine reduction sauces?

I have no doubt that wines used in braising or 'seasoning' do not need to be the fanciest ones... but does it matter in reduction sauces? My guess is not that much as long as you do not start with really bad wines and respect a few basic guidelines (varietals, tanins...)... But I have just heard the opposite! Any thought?

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There are similar concerns with both, in my experience. In neither case do you need a very good wine, because the subtleties that separate a good wine frome a merely ok one will be destroyed by heat.

But in both cases, certain broad stroke qualities of the wine can make important differences. Body, acidity, and residual sugar are high on the list. This is why it can make a difference whether you use white or red, a riesling or a bordeaux, a chardonnay or a muscadet, etc..

It's also important with any red wine sauce to reduce the wine in the presence of protein, to help prevent the pigments from dropping out and the wine from becoming overly tannic.

There are a few cases (like traditional dessert sabayons) where the subtletties of the wine are preserved. in these cases you have to be a bit more picky.

[JohnL]

I was wondering... does this apply to wine reduction sauces?

I have no doubt that wines used in braising or 'seasoning' do not need to be the fanciest ones... but does it matter in reduction sauces? My guess is not that much as long as you do not start with really bad wines and respect a few basic guidelines (varietals, tanins...)... But I have just heard the opposite! Any thought?

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There are similar concerns with both, in my experience. In neither case do you need a very good wine, because the subtleties that separate a good wine frome a merely ok one will be destroyed by heat.

But in both cases, certain broad stroke qualities of the wine can make important differences. Body, acidity, and residual sugar are high on the list. This is why it can make a difference whether you use white or red, a riesling or a bordeaux, a chardonnay or a muscadet, etc..

It's also important with any red wine sauce to reduce the wine in the presence of protein, to help prevent the pigments from dropping out and the wine from becoming overly tannic.

There are a few cases (like traditional dessert sabayons) where the subtletties of the wine are preserved. in these cases you have to be a bit more picky.

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Great advice!!!

My whole point (including the reference to the "romance" of cooking and wine etc) is when cooking with wine you are looking for (as you put it so well) the "broad stroke qualities" of the wine.

This is paramount vs where the wine comes from or the cost of the wine.

You said it perfectly!

I am also cringing over someone's claim that a corked wine is fine for cooking. I won't argue with one's personal experience but this breaks the cardinal rule of using a wine you would drink.

A corked wine should be promptly recorked and taken back to the wine shop for a replacement!

[mamster]

For anyone who denies that there's a myth that holds that you need expensive wine for cooking: in 2001, Cook's Illustrated did a taste test of red wines for cooking and their top recommendation was Guigal Cotes du Rhone, which was $10 at the time and I think sells for $15 at my local supermarket now. I'm sure there are plenty of people who use this wine as their house cooking wine because Cook's said to, when they could just as easily switch to Charles Shaw or a box of Hardy's at a fifth the price and never know the difference.

[paulraphael]

...when they could just as easily switch to Charles Shaw or a box of Hardy's at a fifth the price and never know the difference.

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A fifth the price? Do any of the New Yorkers here know about decent wines in the el-cheapo range that are available here? Seems to me the $8 or so is the cheapest bottle I ever see.

[Nathan]

I am also cringing over someone's claim that a corked wine is fine for cooking. I won't argue with one's personal experience but this breaks the cardinal rule of using a wine you would drink.

A corked wine should be promptly recorked and taken back to the wine shop for a replacement!

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The whole point of this thread is that the rule is wrong!

[Nathan]

...when they could just as easily switch to Charles Shaw or a box of Hardy's at a fifth the price and never know the difference.

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A fifth the price? Do any of the New Yorkers here know about decent wines in the el-cheapo range that are available here? Seems to me the $8 or so is the cheapest bottle I ever see.

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TJ's. also Warehouse Wine and Spirits.

[Adam Balic]

Did they test any other types of wine?

Some recipes require some pretty specific wines, which I can't see how they would be interchangeble. Sure one big red wine might be interchangable with another, but a wooded buttery chardonnay for a riesling? Or can you sub- in any white wine for vin jaune for example?

Also, I'm not sure that I agree with all aspects of this blind tasting approach. OK, it gives you a small data set of some objective data. But I don't cook blind-folded and part of the enjoyment of the process is emotive, not rational. I like the idea of cooking regional dish's with the regions wines for instance. It may not matter to the dish or to my guests, but it is part of the pleasure of the experience for me and that is why I do it - for pleasure, not to be accurate or correct.

Edited March 23, 2007 by Adam Balic (log)

[Fat Guy]

...when they could just as easily switch to Charles Shaw or a box of Hardy's at a fifth the price and never know the difference.

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A fifth the price? Do any of the New Yorkers here know about decent wines in the el-cheapo range that are available here? Seems to me the $8 or so is the cheapest bottle I ever see.

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TJ's. also Warehouse Wine and Spirits.

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Even the nicest wine shops in town carry some very inexpensive wines. For example, at Sherry-Lehmann, you can get Sauvion Cler' Blanc for $5.69 and Sherry-Lehmann's own Maison Rouge also for $5.69. At K&D, which is my local wine shop (and also in my opinion one of the best wine shops anywhere), they have the full line of Carta Vieja wines from Chile (several varietals to choose from), priced at $4.99. I've served these at parties and they've been consumed with gusto -- and usually when I have people over there are a few wine-savvy folks in the group.

[Lori in PA]

Ok, here's feedback from a wine know-nothing, but a decent enough cook. I thought "never cook with wine you wouldn't drink" meant I shouldn't really be buying those gallons of Gallo and storing them in my fridge. I felt guilty about it. I felt like a second-class cook.

Then along came boxed wine, about the time I'd given in and bought an I-can't-afford-this $20 bottle with a cork to make beef burgundy. I saw the boxes in the state store and sneered with the disdain only a truly ignorant person can muster. Weeks later, I was dining at an Italian restaurant I love and spied boxes of wine perched over the saute station. Whaaaat?

Now I buy boxed wine -- a red and a white. I've even started drinking about a 1/2 glass per day for heart health.

In exchange for baring myself as an example of the "average person" mentioned somewhere upthread who doesn't think for herself, somebody answer me this: do I need to refrigerate my box of red once I've started tapping it? I mean, it isn't sealed or anything to begin with, so I'm guessing it is ok to leave it at room temp? (It takes me months to go through a box.)

[paulraphael]

Even the nicest wine shops in town carry some very inexpensive wines. For example, at Sherry-Lehmann, you can get Sauvion Cler' Blanc for $5.69 and Sherry-Lehmann's own Maison Rouge also for $5.69. At K&D, which is my local wine shop (and also in my opinion one of the best wine shops anywhere), they have the full line of Carta Vieja wines from Chile (several varietals to choose from), priced at $4.99. I've served these at parties and they've been consumed with gusto -- and usually when I have people over there are a few wine-savvy folks in the group.

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Cool, thanks. There may be a lot more wine in my future.

[Tjaart]

If I have read the thread correctly, nobody seems to say much about Julia Child's 'other' alternative for white wine - vermouth. I cooked Elizabeth David's vermouth-glazed onions in my youth, and since have developed a penchant for using dry white vermouth instead of white wine for many recipes - especially for deglazing for sauces, where the slight spiciness adds delicious flavour.

When a distinctly acid note is required, a reasonably good white wine surely does the trick, and even here I often prefer the slight natural sweetness and floral qualities of most Rieslings are excellent with fish.

[Carlovski]

I tend to use vermouth instead of white wine for general deglazing/sauce making duties.As well as tasting good is has the advantages of

1 - Lasting a bit longer than wine

2 - I don't like drinking the stuff so it definitely lasts longer!

3 - Usually has a screwcap so easy to seal back up.

Didn't Bill Buford mention in 'Heat'that one of Mario Batali's dishes (I think it was some sort of beef braised in red wine) listed as 'al Barolo' used an inexpensive local Merlot?