Knife Steels

[Octaveman]

A couple of questions for the group:

- Is Sam correct that the V-edge is most common for western knives? I thought that the double bevel was used more often, since though it's less sharp than the V, it maintains a given level of sharpness longer.

Yes, he is correct. The picture that Sam posted has somewhat of a misleading title for the second picture or the "double beveled edge". Technically anything that is not a single bevel IS a double bevel. The DBE pictured is actually a V-edge with a secondary bevel put on right at the very edge. This bevel is extremely small and is used to give support to the thin primary bevel. Using this secondary bevel does not diminish the knife's overall sharpness. Many people who do their own sharpening make a V edge then will put this secondary bevel on their knives with just a few light strokes on the stones or whatever medium that's being used. Still a double beveled knife as there are two primary bevels on each side of the knife.

- Can someone explain why ridged steels are deleterious to the knife? And if they are, why do Henckels and Wusthof, among many others, include them in their sets?

I know there's someone out there that can better explain it than me but I'll take a stab (no pun) at it. Using a glass smooth steel you are taking your folded edge and straitening it out. If you add grooves to the mix you are now raking your fine edge against a surface that will remove metal. By removing metal you will be in effect destroying your original nicely sharpened edge. If you take a jeweler's loop and examine the edge you just "steeled" you will see an extremely toothy edge that looks very much like a saw blade. Far from the smooth edge that you started with. I've seen knives at friends houses or in the blocks of people hosting a party or whatever and there will be scratches on the side of the blade left by the grooved steel when they slipped and hit the side of the blade with it. Anything that marks up a blade like that can NOT be good for the edge.

The debate goes on regarding which edge is better than the other: a toothy edge or a smooth edge. Both have their merits and it basically boils down to the fact that each one is better than the other for certain food types. For example...take a ripe tomato. A toothy edge will immediately grab and pierce the skin starting the slice whereas a smooth edge, although razor sharp, will hesitate ever so slightly before piercing the skin. Many users have these toothy edges and since they have that grab and go feel to them these people say "WOW, this knife is sharp!" when in fact, it may not be all that sharp at all. You can do a quick test to see how toothy your knife is. One way is to take and fold a paper towel and run it down your blade. You can also take some cheese cloth and do the same. You will quickly notice the towel being grabbed by the toothy spots. I personally use my fingernail. I slowly and gently run the edge down the tip of my fingernail and I can feel right away where the toothy parts are on my blade that I missed during sharpening. I prefer to have a smooth edge on my knives but I do keep a petty lightly toothy for slicing tomatoes.

Honing with any kind of steel will improve your edge if it's folded over. Grooved steels will remove metal, smooth steels will not during this process. It just stands to reason that a knife will "feel" sharper after steeling. IMHO manufacturers include grooved steels in sets for a couple of reasons. First it helps to sell knives. Second, if the public believes these things will keep their knives "sharp" then they buy it. The general public is just not aware that they keep them sharper than dull but they do not keep them sharp so they buy into it. Plus, it's a fair guess that many people who own steels have no clue how to use them correctly.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[russ parsons]

I've seen knives at friends houses or in the blocks of people hosting a party or whatever and there will be scratches on the side of the blade left by the grooved steel when they slipped and hit the side of the blade with it. 

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so now we know what octaveman does when he goes to friends' houses for parties. kind of a knife geek's twist on the old "checking out the medecine cabinet"?

[baconburner]

The main difference is in the metals used in knives between the Japanese and Western ones. There is a scale of hardness called the Rockwell scale which is a measure of how hard a metal is. Most Western ones are between 46-48 on the Rockwell scale. Japanese (good ones) are between 62-64 at which point the metal can become brittle. This is a logarithmic scale so a small increase in the number is quite large. This is sometimes why when you look closely at a Japanese knife you will see two different colours. Quite often a softer steel is folded over the core. to absorb the impact.

My understanding of sharpening is that you have to have something harder than the object you are sharpening to make it effective. Waterstones meet that criteria and bear less on a single point. I may be all wet but that what I am led to believe.

Cheers