macrosan

If indeed the discussion does turn in that direction, could we not just talk about individual European countries ? In my experience, the European countries have so little in common with one another, that the very term pan-European is pan-oxymoronic. Irony ? That's a secret, it seems, only to one person I've heard of.

No no no. This is far too important to be left to two persons alone --- even the estimable Finch and adversary. Dodger and Brit are quite right to raise the vital and pertinent issues they have posted on, but there are so many more. Who is to arbitrate ? Who is to determine the scientific control conditions, and the parameters for judgement ? Who is going to kill the goose that lays the golden fat ? We need the Great Balic here to command the Finch to post the address in Kent at which this putative contest is to take place. Then we just need someone to volunteer for crowd control.

OK, I'll join in. But I'm entirely bored by the way this "conversation" has been going for a while, so what I'll do instead is to talk about the original question The question was "Is Italian cuisine relevant to modern gastronomy" and my answer is a resounding yes. The areas of relevance are as follows. 1) By common consent, Italian cuisine is very popular among people who take a keen, and often expert, interest in gastronomy. Ergo Italian cuisine is relevant. There is something about the cuisine which is important, since otherwise it would not attract such a following. Any cuisine which is important is relevant. 2) Following on from that, it's interesting to note that many culinary experts on this thread seem to be struggling to define why it is relevant, and that in itself is important. It indicates either that there are subtleties and nuances to Italian cuisine that do not lend themselves to analysis, or else that the intellectual methodology of those experts is not up to the job. It may even be that the experts' analytical principles, by which they define relevance, are faulty. The mere existence of this intellectual problem suggests that Italian cuisine is relevant. 3) Italian cuisine is relevant to modern gastronomy because it provides the historical foundation of many ingredients and techniques which are fundamental to gastronomy. Pasta, olive oil, plum tomatoes, parmesan cheese, salami, antipasti, espresso coffee. These are all important elements of modern gastronomy, both in the particular and general, and they continue to be widely used. So Italian cuisine is relevant. It matters not that the French also use olive oil, or that the Germans also make sausages. It is the Italians who have made these items gastronomically important. 4) By general consent, Italian cuisine is simpler than some others. Simplicity is an important feature of modern gastronomy, and the maintenance of this tradition of simplicity is an important benchmark against which other cuisines can continually re-calibrate themselves. So Italian cuisine is relevant. 5) Italian cuisine broadly occupies the middle to high levels of the gastronomic marketplace. People entering at the lower end of that marketplace will be introduced to gastronomy thru Italian cuisine, and over time and by self-education, move towards and then into the higher reaches of haute cuisine. Given the scope of popularity of Italian cuisine, it therefore provides a vital bridge to introduce people to haute cuisine. It is therefore important to, and relevant to, modern gastronomy. Right, those are my reasons. None of them is an absolute, and each of them is a form of (in my view valid and reasonable) generalisation. But then the very terms "Italian cusine" and "relevance" are themselves generalisations.

It's from visual observation of once-beautiful residential buildings being allowed to decay, once-smart hotels not being kept adequately refurbished and/or being sold off to lower-quality chains, and once-exclusive and top-quality shops and restaurants being converted or sold off to lower-range establishments. I'm happy to believe that prices od property are still astronomical, but the prices you quote are not much different from prices in St Johns Wood, Regents Park, Chelsea, Islington, Battersea, and so on, whereas once upon a time they were much different.

... and maybe in between courses too ?

Doug, you must try and remember to put smilies in your post when you're joking. In the case of your post, I think a lot of smilies are called for.

Yeah I'm listening, Suzanne, but my client isn't He changed my meetin to November 19, so I won't be there for the IHM show. However....if this event is organized in the week commencing November 18 ....

Bene detto, Dom Costa, and quite right, Tony. Steve's definition of "relevant" may be acceptable to him, but it's not to many others here. Relevant means relevant, that is having some significance to, or bearing upon, the issue being discussed. It was FatGuy's question, FatGuy's word, not Steve's. Actually, the original question goes even wider than Tony suggests. It doesn't mention "modern gastronomy", it addresses cusine as a whole. Many contributions here have clearly proven that Italy does indeed have "culinary relevance" in a variety of ways. I absolutely agree with the Dom that to characterise Italian cuisine as homely, peasant cooking for the common man does it a great disservice, as well as being inaccurate.

Heston, you seem to be very insistent on the precision of your cooking methods, such as maintaining exactly the right temperature for ingredients and using precise cooking times. Is this because you believe there is only one "right" method, or because you believe this precision generates more interest in your cuisine, or because the combination of precise methods enables you to create dishes that are truly innovative, and perhaps could not be created without the scientific approach you adopt ? Or is there another reason that I've entirely missed ?

I wish I had memories like that. My bank used to be Natwest at 1 Kensington High Street, and my consultations with my bank manager were more of a sad reflection on my financial condition. And there sure was a charge SteveP, Kensington is no longer a posh area. Smart hotels and shops, but I think as a residentoial area it has been overtaken by Regents Park, St Johns Wood, and the yuppie riverside neighbourhoods.

SteveP, I thought your musical exposition to Gavin was lucid and precise. Effectively, that suggests that LloydWebberesque songs reside isomewhere along the continuum between opera and pop, blending elements of both and adding some innovative elements of its own, and appealing to a new constituency of those who like neither opera nor pop, plus some from the borders of each of those. Now isn't that what Italian cuisine is ? If haute cuisine is opera, and basse cuisine (or "peasant" or "bistro" food) is pop music, then is not Italian cuisine Lloyd Webber ? If so, then that is the relevance of Italian cuisine. It represents enough of haute cuisine to a much larger market to make its impact important on the development of that cuisine by chefs, it represents enough of basse cuisine to a more discerning market to make a similar impact on that cuisine. So maybe it acts as a bridge between the elite and the mass market, and that would surely give it an important place in the culinary world.

Well congratulations for being right all along, Steve And I too would like to thank everyone very much for finally coming around to my long held position on this , that it all comes down to a matter of what you mean by relevance and how you build it into your question.

OK, I registered In case I bump into any of you, please try to remember that I'm a Freelance Journalist and Consultant who also writes Advertising Copy for Advertising Agencies working in the Hospitality Industry plus I have a Syndicated Column in International Publications and I am a part-time Public Relations Officer for many Hotel and Motel Chains in Various Parts of the World. Wow, that keeps me busy So back to the original post. Nick, you gonna try to organize a little get-together ?

At least Steve will agree that British coking is a series of enigma variations

That's a pretty low-calibre slag, Andy. More of a Moderator's slag than a real, gutsy, manly, Majumdarian slag. I know you can do better, because I have a few of your previous efforts framed and hanging on the west wall of my toilet.

I have to take your word for that blanket assessment of US Italian food. I've eaten at several Italian restaurants in NYC, and although I can't say that I found any of them (except Babbo) excellent, I would say the general standard was perfectly good. I think we also have very large numbers of Italian restaurants in Britain, although we probably have a higher proportion of Indian and Chinese than the USA. Here I find the general standard of Italian restaurants is good. Outside the haute cuisine establishments in Central London, my guess is that most of the high quality restaurants are Italian. Maybe their apparently better performance in the UK is to do with market positioning, since Chinese and Indian initially took the low-quality cheap ground, leaving the higher ground for the Italians and (in lesser numbers) French. I can't believe it's related to the inherent cuisine.

Walter, you said (as many others at eGullet have said before you) that although you were very unhappy at your experience, you "tipped the wait staff reasonably, since it obviously was not their fault" I can't go along with this. The primary source of the problem may not have been the fault of the waitstaff, but as Rozrapp points out they didn't even bother to let you know what was happening or why, or to apologize, or to look after you in any way by the sound of it. What they did was the minimum they were required to do, they brought the food when it was ready and removed the dirty plates. I don't think that warrants a tip, and certainly nothing close to a "reasonable" tip. I have to say that I disagree with Dodge's principle that you can tip low if you're not planning to go back, but high if you do intend to go back. Now that is taking unfair advantage of a server. If a server gives good service, you should give a good tip, and vice versa. It has nothing to do with whether you ever intend to go there again.

Steve, I don't know if that's true or not (I have no figures from booksellers) but allowing that it is true, then my question is "Why is that relevant?". You are suggesting that bookbuyers' volume of purchase is related to the importance of a cuisine. But if you accept FatGuy's posit and accept that bookbuyers don't buy books on Italian cuisine, then it becomes a matter of observable fact that bookbuying practice is not related to importance of cuisine. N'est ce pas ? I'm not stipulating one way or the other at this stage, I'm simply puzzled and posing a few questions. Really !

Steve, I'm sorry to hear that you're quince-deficient. With the strides that medical research is making these days, I'm sure they'll come up with something for it within your lifetime OK all you professional food people, is this show open to Joe Public as well ? The show registration process requires me to state I am a "hospitality professional" and while I do believe I'm a pretty hospitable guy, and I sure outrate many maitre d's I've come across, I'm not comfortable with checking that box Anyone want to sell me an eGullet Guest Ticket ? I could easily be persuaded to organize my next visit to NYC to coincide with wingding's quincey demo and even Suvir's unspecified activity, but how do I get a ticket ?

One of my friends, as a joke, complained to the waiter (at an excellent restaurant in London) that his steak had been overcooked. Now you have to understand that we had all finished our meal and he had cleaned his plate so well that they could have put the plate away without washing it, and he had a broad beam on his face when he made his jocular "complaint". Unfortunately, the waiter didn't get his sense of humour and went scurrying off to bring the maitre d' over. Well, my friend didn't want just to admit he was joking, so he earnestly repeated to the maitre d' that he was totally dissatisfied, his steak had been overcooked although he had asked for rare steak. The maitre d' asked him why, in that case, he had finished eating the steak before complaining and my friend replied "I continued to eat it in the hope of finding a rare portion inside". The maitre d' looked at him hard for several seconds, then finally burst out laughing and told the waiter to bring us liqueurs on the house

Here we are, with more solutions chasing problems, more answers seeking appropriate questions to justify their existence ...and that's an observable, demonstrable fact. Unfortunately, that fact doesn't match some people's preconceptions of "what makes a cuisine great" so they try to undermine the fact. If Italian cuisine is so popular amongst the cognoscenti then it palpably is not despite their insistence on serving a pasta course or the starch content of some of their food or because it is based on "simple home cooking" or their unique political history, it is because there is something about their cuisine that the cognoscenti enjoy and respect and admire. Now that may challenge many of the preconceptions that some people hold about what makes a cuisine great, and why one national cuisine (OK, OK, French cuisine) is better than all the others. It may even challenge some of the principles which people hold dear as to what fine dining really is, but nevertheless people must face up to that challenge. You see, FatGuy's question does not only address the analytical question of what it is about Italian cuisine that gives rise to its practical popularity despite it's theoretical anonymity, it also addresses the philosophical question of why the "experts" have assigned to Italian cuisine a lower status than French cuisine.

Hey, Mrs Woman, don't get sensitive My post wasn't remotely intended to be critical of your post. You picked up on a story and posted it... that's great. Kiku found out some more and posted it ... that's also great. That's the way this board works, and that's how we all learn a bit more.

Please Tony, don't work so hard to misinterpret what I said. The reason I put "anti-kids" in quotation marks was exactly to avoid the response you gave. It is a clear and unmistakeable signal that it is shorthand for a clearly-defined group of people in this thread who have argued against the presence of children in certain restaurants. It is an equally unambiguous signal that it is not intended to be taken literally (as you have nevertheless done) or generally outside the confines of this debate. To respind to the point you make, I understand your desire to find a "kids-free" environment for your fine dining (note the quotation marks, everyone -- this is shorthand for what we all now perfectly well understand it to mean if we have been reading this thread). If this is so important to you, then you do, of course, have the option to select a restaurant which has a no-kids policy. And yes, you may by accident get it in any restaurant where there happen to be no kids when you eat there. But to move on from that and suggest that there is something wrong with parents taking their kids to certain restaurants, even if you don't happen to be there, because your image of what such establishments should represent, is I believe snobbish. I'm surprised, because I don't think you really mean that. It's rather like NinaW's attitude to the way she insists on the right to determine how people should dress at such places.

Great find, Kikujiro Just goes to prove that there are three sides to every story ... or should that be seven ?

Yeah, I'm up for that Nick. Which town ?