macrosan

Oh boy, Matthew, I've never heard Croydon described as a beautiful city but it does have a few nice features It's interesting to assess a whole city for its level of culinary achievement, and I think it's a valid form of assessment. Not scientific, not accurate, but I do think it can say something about a city as a whole. I have formulated the same view of Brussels that you did of Rome. I think that 10-15 years ago I would have thought the same of London (and Croydon!) but they have positively improved over that period. But for me, the star city for general excellence of restaurants simply has to be New York. I have found a poor meal in New York to be a rarity, and a very good meal to be commonplace. And you don't even have to avoid tourist traps or do detailed advance research. You can just walk along a street, look at the setup of the place and the menu, and walk in with a reasonable expectation of getting the quality of meal you would expect.

This thread is starting to become an extension of the "food and snobbery" thread. It seems to me that many of the "anti-kids" brigade have no other reason for not wanting kids in "their" restaurants than the thought that they aren't entitled to sample what they themselves are sampling. This is pure snobbery. Everyone accepts the obvious circumstance of a poorly behaved child, who shouldn't be taken to restaurants which are clearly unsuitable. But to suggest that children shouldn't on principle be taken to fine dining establishments is, in my view, foolish. My elder daughter used to eat out with us almost everywhere from the age of 1. She was entirely quiet for as long as we stayed, being more interested in watching and listening to people than playing with toys. There were some restaurants we avoided either because of the cathedral-like hush, or because the layout wouldn't accommodate the carry-seat or pushchair we usually took her around in. But we ate with her at Claridges, the Savoy Grill, the Ritz (for tea), Maxim's in Paris, and many other such places without the hint of difficulty. By contrast, when my younger daughter came along, we were restricted to places like MacDonalds or simple Chinese restaurants, always at early times before they got busy, because my younger one was boisterous, noisy and restless. When I go to any dining establishment, I expect children and adults to behave in a way that respects my presence, and is in keeping with the culture or style of the establishment. Therefore I accept that the atmosphere at a tapas bar is likely to be lively and noisy, but I expect a calm and quiet atmosphere at, say, Petrus. That is one of the reasons I'm paying more to go to a place like Petrus, or (in the case someone mentioned) for a first-class seat on an aeroplane. Anyone who mars my reasonable expectation, whether one year old or fifty, whether child or drunkard or simply noisy person, will incur my displeasure. I find pleasant children an enhancement to all my dining experiences.

And my point is that for me dining is ultimately an eating experience

Tony, of course you're exactly right. But Peter has this thing about not accepting a genre. He believes that in order to qualify for the title "Italian food" it must be cooked in some precise (but unidentified) way according to a precise (but unidentified) recipe precisely as it is served in (an unidentified) location in Italy. So I'm just pulling his piedino a little, just to see if he'll concede the point

You exactly make my point, Peter. "As it's served in Italy" depends on which village in Italy, which year, which restaurant (or home), which chef or cook, and what ingredients were available this morning. If you take the simplest pasta dish, the variations of "what is served in Italy" will be so great as to make it possible to love one variation and hate another. Of course that's true for any "national cuisine". Even French

I don't go into a restaurant because it is called an "Italian" restaurant, I go in because I've heard (or discovered for myself) that it serves good food. I don't care if their dishes are "authentic", I care if they're enjoyable and/or interesting and/or in line with my tastes. "Authentic" is a much overvalued and misunderstood quality. As has already been mentioned in this thread (and others), you have to define when and where before you can even start to assign any meaning to the term. Then you have to define who, because there will be much disagreement on how to cook a particular dish even among those who "originally" created the "authentic" dish. Many people who demand authenticity are simply stating a preference for a particular dish or dishes which they once tasted somewhere, and to which they wish to assign this "authentic" quality for reasons of nostalgia or "one-upmanship". Some also seem to believe that there is a mystical property in authenticity which somehow makes food "better" than it really is.

Sorry I'm a bit late but if you want a top quality Chinese meal, I acn recommend The Good Earth in Esher. Food is excellent, and the wine list also.

I've forgotten when Gordon Ramsay is opening in NYC, but is that within a time frame which is relevant to the book ? If not, it could be a great teaser for a sequel

Terrific, atmospheric report, SteveP. Unless I've missed something, it's been a while My own preference, at this level of dining, is for graciousness of service to balance the quality of food, so Taillevent sounds perfect for me. I enjoyed your description of their menu development as "Kind of like the way they modernize the design of a Mercedes 500 sedan over the years". Don't miss answering Andy's question about seasonality of foie gras - I'm also interested in the answer.

I don't know the Good Food Guide, so I can't comment on their measurement of "cooking". But if they said that Basildog's Margot's "puts on a happy face", then I'll give the GFG 10 out of 10 for perceptiveness. That's just how I found it, and it was the first comment I thought to make in my review here. If I were to give Petrus' cooking an 8, I think I'd be giving Margot's a 5 or 4, based on two visits and one respectively. But I wouldn't quibble over the 3 they gave, and maybe they don't like to change last year's mark by too much.

Oh Andy, please leave me my hyperbole. After all, what is life without a little hyperbole?

Andy, I don't expect it at all. It's up to Henry. But just going by his reputation, I'm guessing we might have had a better experience if he had been there. No, you may not say so. I consider avowedly miscooking a grilled dover sole to be a big problem. How would you describe it ?

Gordon, Basildog's place is just shy of 300 miles from London. Four hour drive. Places like Ramsay RHR, Petrus, Foliage, Capital and La Tante Claire are all on my list in the posh/expensive/top-of-the-range group, and there are many others discussed in threads here. I would certainly recommend St Johns because it's excellent and unusual, very distinctive. Rules is another which may be worth visiting; it has a very English menu and a long history. Do get to a couple of pubs. The Wenlock Arms is great, and there are others I haven't tried discussed on this board. Simon Majumdar and Tony Finch appear to be the experts on these. But if you put Wenlock into the search engine, it'll take you to the thread where they're all discussed.

I've met you both and i'm trying to figure out which Jewish man was which. Thank you for that, Tony. I couldn't work it out either

My kishkes tell me you have a pretty good idea what kishkes are

I don't believe in "Who's the best..." or "Who's the most ..." debates, so I'll pass on those If I had to pick two restaurants, I'd go to Gordon Ramsay's RHR and St John's. Interestingly, I've never been to RHR, but it's right at the top of my must-go list based on reports here and elsewhere. St John's (which I've visited three times) is a very different eating experience, it's got a unique atmosphere, with excellent food and value. But actually, if I were you, I wouldn't limit myself to two

Please don't be offended, Jaybee, but I think your choice is somewhat self-indulgent.

Did you notice they're not allowed a last cigarette though??? That is just plain mean! Those Texans like to protect the health of their executees.

So the Raw Fish and Chilli Beef Tasting Menu is off at Bruce's, then. I don't know what he'll do now....

Aw heck, JFK, you were just influenced by Cabbie on that one If you turn into a foie gras lobe, please don't appear at any of our eGullet get-togethers --- you'll get eaten up in the rush Enjoy a bunch of great meals, JFK, and do report back at your earliest. There are lots of people here waiting .....

Are you suggesting that Andy is likely to throw up after eating there ?

Matthew, it's Punt e Mes which is a brand of red vermouth. I guess you had a cocktail made from it. I enjoyed your report, and I'll make some comments on your thread in the General forum, from whence I came here

Hey Jinny, that's amazing. That is our waiter, the tall one third from the left with the bemused expression on his face

Cabbie, you get off this thread immediately. You've been exceeding your daily ration of posts as it is, and you're 2,500 miles away from RHR. Gee, give a guy a break

JFK, if you think you might be overdosing on Ramsay, might you consider putting your rezzie at RHR up for sale ? I'd quite like to go, but I just can't organise my life that far ahead