macrosan

Now this is a long, sad story Mrs Macro was clearly and unambiguously requested to prepare 7 portions of chopped chicken liver and schmaltz. The evening before the Sutton Arms, she completed the chopped liver (granted, in excellently large portions ) while I prepared the fried onions. She then informed me that she didn't have time to do the schmaltz. Schmaltz (in our household at least) is a by-product of making chicken soup, and I think the reality was that as we'd had turkey and not chicken the previous week, and she never keeps turkey schmaltz, she just couldn't be bothered making schmaltz specially. Well, as you would expect, I made perfectly clear to Mrs Macro that this was unacceptable, that her attitude left much to be desired, and that eGulleteers were unaccustomed to such cavalier treatment. Our respective lawyers are now going over our various statements and submissions Well, I had to make do with the next best option, which was to purchase some raw chicken fat from our butcher, and provide this to the recipients so that they could (if they wished) make their own schmaltz. The chopped liver is fine on its own, best on Polish rye bread, and pretty good on matzo or Jacobs cream crackers. Some people (like me ) prefer it with a small amount of fried onion stirred into the mix. Others find the chopped liver dry, and like to mix in some schmaltz. Some like both. It's entirely a matter of taste, and I suggested to everyone that they experiment with small quantities to see which combination they like best. The "new green" cucumber is one of very many styles of pickled cucumber, but it's the one that I personally think goes best with chopped liver. Incidentally, what you all got was chopped chicken livers. Sometimes Mrs Macro makes chopped chicken and calves' liver blended together, which is stronger in flavour. I have requested a recipe from Mrs Macro (through her lawyers of course) but she says she makes up the quantities as she goes along, and also that the contents depend on the particular livers she gets. She is planning to make some more at the end of next week, so I'm going to stand beside her with notepad and pen, and I will then post the resulting recipe here.

Isn't that interesting !!! The two fish are indeed the same. John Dory is found mainly around Australia/New Zealand, but also the Mediterranean and Indian Ocean, and is considered a game fish. The same fish found in Lake Tiberias is called St Peter's Fish for obvious biblical reasons. Amazing what you can learn

Cathy, is that St Peter's Fish, as in Sea of Galilee/Lake Tiberias St Peter's Fish ? The description sounds like it, but I've never heard of it as "St Pierre" before. And I understood that it was only found in Lake Tiberias, so I'm surprized to hear of it in a Greek restaurant Sounds like a great place. Whenever I've been to a Greek restaurant, I've always ordered only meze for the complete meal, because I've always been disappointed at their main dishes, and especially meat. For some reason, I've never eaten fish at a Greek resto. Must try it.

Yes indeed, Marlene Many of the legislators seem to forget that their "victims" are actually drug addicts, people who are not in control of their addiction, and people who are likely to react irrationally and violently to perceived assault. Legislators would do well to learn something about the subject before rushing aboard the bandwagon of political advantage.

Why, Karen ? Is it an evangelical issue for you, or do you spend a lot of time in Europe ?

Oh please no, Steve. If you were me eGullet would be a different, and lesser, place

No, Steve, they eat pie for Balic's sake. I think you must read the wrong papers, Steve. Well, I guess most American papers are the wrong papers The broadsheet press I read in the UK is not at all as you describe. Sure the press derides presumption and pomposity and elitism and arrogance, but then so do most British people. We call it satire and long may it continue. Do any of these descriptions fit Sketch ? Well maybe the jury has not yet retired on that one, but in the meantime I think it's entirely reasonable to poke some fun at them.

I believe that one of the fundamental problems here is that many restaurants perceive that they're selling the food at a loss, and make up all the profit on wine. I'm not sure this is actually the case, and if it is then it's time those restaurants revised their business model. Nevertheless, if their perception is that people who don't order wine are loss-makers, that would explain a bad attitude.

The most common word appearing in failed business plans is "only" Assuming very few people will eat at Sketch at those prices more than once a year, "only 35 a night" represents the need to find 12,775 customers each year, just to achieve break-even. Is that so hard? Yup

I never win lotteries or votes

Oh no, Tommy, this is a great thread. I echo FatGuy's earlier comments --- this is like eGullet when I first joined it a year ago

Liza, I note what you said and I can see that as a reflection of VIP treatment. In essence, that's a few extra freebies which are always nice to receive as a gesture. I think the discussion here has been more targetted toward the extra quality of the meal that you can get when the chef takes a bit of additional, personalized trouble. That, I think, is a whole new level of VIP treatment, and it's a level which not all restaurants are capable of achieving.

Uh oh, someone pressed my serious button I'll acknowledge the dictionary definitions of etiquette, but I don't follow dictionary definitions in such matters. I want etiquette to mean what I want it to mean, and it's the meaning and purpose that matters far more to me than what it was once thought to be, or what someone else considers it to mean today. To me, etiquette is a code of conduct which helps people to live together in harmony, in a civilized way, and which enables one person to show respect for another. In this context, it is a societal norm, which evolves as social mores evolve. Of course it is not a norm in the sense that a majority of all society adopt it, but it is in that the majority of those who have any interest at all in espousing standards of behaviour adopt it. Etiquette by definition is in a constant state of evolution. Many man/woman interactions have changed radically from what were once patronizing gestures designed to confirm the superiority of men over women. Modern women resent some of the old procedures of men offering their seats to women, men not cshaking hands with women, men helping women to seat themselves, and so on, to the point where most of these gestures would cause offense rather than being taken as a sign of good manners. Etiquette is not, for me, a practice designed to demonstrate one person's superiority, or "better breeding", over another. That may be how it originated, but for me that is not relevant. Etiquette is important to modern society, and to all members of society. It is a way of ameliorating the problems of inequality, whether economic or social or racial. It is a way of achieving dialogue and mutual understanding where otherwise it could not be achieved. It is a way of demonstrating the value of respect and self-respect. In the context of this particular discussion about who waits for whom at the dinner table, it seems to me that the "right" answer is what each particular group intrinsically believes to be the right answer. Etiquette is not a perfect science. Etiquette on any individual occasion has "worked" if the group believes (after the event) that evryone present has demonstrated their respect for everyone else. Of course that leave scope for error, and misunderstanding, but a group such as I have described will accept, and allow for, that. If I read this thread correctly, the group at l'Espinasse did what evry individual one of them thought was proper. The "missing person" may have been embarrassed at the others waiting for him/her, but that person will also have felt warmed by the respect that the others showed him/her. That's perfect, mission accomplished. Against that achievement, the minor problem of lukewarm food pales into insignificance. If FatGuy's peers had been the party at l'Espinasse, they wouldn't have waited, and no possible offence or disrespect would have been deemed to have occurred. Equally fine, equally perfect. The big problem is that if FatGuy and I were in the same group, where we don't agree on what is "proper", cconfusion and difficulty are bound to arise. It is then that we need an established "rule", but I fear that there is simply no such thing any more. Letitia .... may be FatGuy's guru, but I've never heard of her so I'm not likely to follow her rules. My rules are defined by my upbringing and my environment, and they change with my observation of people around me. But of course, one of my rules of etiquette allows for cultural and other differences, so according to etiquette, I will defer to another provided they tell me about it. At l'Espinasse, if one person left at the table had said "Let's eat, guys, my friend XXXX would far prefer that we do" then I would observe their etiquette without any qualm. One of the rules of etiquette is to understand when not to follow the rules of etiquette.

Good effort

Well you've been looking for a key role for LML for a while now, haven't you ?

But etiquette is nothing more nor less than a codification of societal norms.

I 've been to Babbo five times now, and on two occasions while I was eating at the bar, I've observed him chatting to his guests at his VIP table (which is the one "next to" the end of the bar, behind the glass screen. The bartender told me they were "Mario's special guests". On one occasion, he greeted them when they arrived, and he was obviously discussing the menu/their meal with them for maybe 10 minutes. . On both occasions, he made two or three trips to the table while the food was served and while they were eating. All the signals (on both occasions) were that he was at the very least directly supervising their meal, if not actually designing it for them. Obviously I have no idea how many people get such treatment, or how they qualify. Maybe regular eating there works, maybe being a billionaire helps, maybe it's a family thing. I would assume that as Mario seems almost always to be in the kitchen there, the "Dan and Tom" treatment must surely be feasible, but it seems from your experience that he limits it pretty tightly. Steve, on reflection my guess is that you're right about Babbo having become so popular that it has lost a veneer of service quality, which would encompass this issue. I noted in my last review (last month) that the service at the bar had dropped a couple of notches to "casual and offhand", and others here have reported service failings.

Steve, I just love the way you mock us for (as you rightly say) inventing the language, then proceed to use it in a highly idiosyncratic way which borrows nothing from its original invention This was the first time I've seen you confess to that.

Oh, I can't resist this Sorry, Steve, I know I'm a bad person

Yeah, well that seems to be the nub of the problem. My guess is that Mario won't do that for you, even though he does it for his own selected guests, and my guess is that Mario doesn't accept you are not the same as every other diner. That happens, Steve, it's the restaurant's choice. I can quite understand that you would therefore cross Babbo off your list.

Steven, all your conclusions are perfect, but they don't address the subject of the thread. In fact, what you propose is that people break with etiquette in order to achieve a sensible result. Different discussion, that.

My experience of the USA is obviously narrower than Cabby's, but maybe I tend more often to be in the company of people whom I know less well (customers, acquaintances, etc). My experience is different from Cabby's. I find Americans just as etiquette conscious as the British. And on that subject, what happened to us in the conversation ? I too would exclude the French from the discussion but the Brits are in. And Wilfrid is right in his assessment of what the vast majority of Brits would say about the circumstance described. They would all wait to eat, and it would be considered poor etiquette not to do so. On the different question of whether it is sensible, I guess that is like whether wearing a bow-tie at a black-tie dinner is sensible, or letting a woman go through a doorway first is sensible, or whether addressing people by their first names is sensible. Interesting questions, but nothing to do with etiquette which is not founded on sensibility.

I actually had lunch in a Pizza Express yesterday. The pizza was better than some I've had at "proper" Italian restaurants both in London and the USA. What really impressed me was that I asked for a Venezianawithout the billed sultanas, and it was "no problem Proves that they're making it to order, at least. The wine was awful, though. I had a 175cl glass of Chianti for £3.20 !!!!!!!! Pretty poor, too.

Steve, I really don't understand what you're saying here. Of course it has everything to do with the importance of dining in the UK. It certainly has zero to do with dining in Beijing or San Fancisco. Gary is self-evidently right. A new restaurant opening in London is only the "most important ever to open in the UK" if it is more important to the UK than previous restaurants that opened in London Sketch is most extraordinary for its prices, and that has been what much of the discussion has been about. We have no idea yet whether this place will earn Michelin crowns, or whether the food will stand up to gourmet examination. The mere fact that it is sponsored by Gagnaire is not (yet) of importance. I agree with Gary's assessment that any of the chain of haute cuisine chefs who started to open genuinely high quality restaurants in the 1980s in the UK will prove to have been more important to the development of cuisine in the UK than almost any to come.

I found it ! It was The Gaucho Grill in Swallow Street. In fact I didn't realize when I ate there last year that it's a chain which has six sites in London (including Sloane Avenue in Chelsea). I recall that the steak was OK, cooked quite well, and the meat certainly tasted different from other steaks I've had. But it wasn't a place I'd go back to.