macrosan

The obsession for pigeon-holing cuisine resides almost entirely with gourmets. Words like "traditional" and "authentic" and "French provincial" and "rustic" litter the pages of restaurant and food literature, but I believe their only relevance is to give interested people a generic clue as to the type of food under consideration. I don't know who "invented" French cuisine. I don't think it is intellectually possible to define the term "French cuisine" sufficently precisely to make the question answerable. Even if it were, I don't think it is historically possible to define a snapshot in time at which the "invention" might have taken place. And I don't think it matters. This is not to say that the conversation is not of potential value. I'm sure it will be. But perhaps the process is infinitely more important and rewarding than the result.

Stoney, how do you edit a picture ? It will be interesting to hear from others who have been to Luger in the past weeks. I guess there's not a top restaurant anywhere that is totally immune to deterioration, and maybe it has finally happened here

Why do they make square pizzas ? Is it just for visual variety, or do they cook differently, or can they just get more in the oven ?

Essentially, Tony, pizza is just the equivalent of a sandwich. It was never intended to be, and never will be, great food. But are you saying you've never had a pizza without mozzarella or tomato ? If that's the case, you really should try a few of those without before you finally turn your back on what can be a pleasant snack food.

I can't help feeling it's curmudgeonly to spurn the original invitation from Player, and I'm still concerned about people who might not read this thread, and therefore just turn up at Player. Also, I'm not sure whether we'd be welcomed at Match, and whether His Gruffness will be ready and willing to serve us the requisite FOGs. What about Player from 6 till 7pm, then move to Match ? It's not that far ! Andy, I think you now need to make a decision.

I'm going to the New York flaming instead Andy, I know it seems unreasonable, but might there be a few people who planned to come and don't read this board every day ? In which case they're going to turn up at the club and be fearsomely upset. I assume that Players have someone who can actually do the business, and while I'm disappointed that the Gruff won't be there, it is (after all) the cocktail that's the star of the show, not the shaker. If at least one other person is going, I'll be there, even if that one other person is only Fattus Gaius

Well this is so strange I just had lunch at a Pizza Express, and met the Number One Upseller in the world Briefly, the dialogues went like this: Him: Good afternoon sir. This is the wine menu, here is the food menu. Would you like an aperitif ? Me: No thanks. Just get me (glancing at wine list) a small glass of Merlot please (they have two sizes of glass on the list). Him: Would you like the 250ml size, sir ? That's very good value. Me: (Thinking of this thread, calculating that the larger glass size is about 1% cheaper per litre) Yes please. Him: We have a number of specials today sir ... (goes on to list them)... they're all very good. Me: (Thinking about this thread) Are the regular dishes not very good then ? Him: Oh no sir, everything is very good. ...(He disappears, returns with wine after a few minutes.) Him: Have you chosen, sir ? Me: Yep, I'll have a piece of pizza with pomodoro and basil as a starter, then penne arrabbiata please. Him: The pizza is a full size pizza, sir, it's really for two to share. Me: (Thinking of this thread and thinking "wow") No, I just want something small. What do you recommend ? Him: We have a bruschetta made from ciabatta, with tomatoes. Me: (Thinking of this thread and checking the price on the menu. Briuschetta was 30% cheaper) That's fine thanks. Him: And wpould you like a sald with your penne ? Me: No thanks. Him: We have an excellent salad made with ... Me: No thanks. Him: Would you like to order anything else ? Me: Is there anything you'd like to suggest ? Him: The salad is really very good. Me: No thanks. We had the same sort of dialogue about dessert and coffee. I came out mentally exhausted, but in fact the guy was only trying hard ... just a bit too hard.

Then he's a fool, and an arrogant one at that. I don't know what kind of hobby-horse he thinks he's riding, nor to whom he is appealing for support in this view, since I don't even know where he writes. But that is classic "I wouldn't spend that sort of money so I'm buggered if anyone else should be allowed to do so". Coren is entirely at liberty to go to Sketch or not, but his promotion of the unethical (and arguably illegal) campaign of false bookings says a lot more about Coren's standrads than it does about Sketch.

I think that's actually Kent (nr Surrey)

Well it's a bit like the Honours List, I guess. You either attach credibility and importance to them, or you don't. If I don't attach any weight to (let's say) a knighthood or a CBE, but the person receiving it values it highly and (perhaps) is willing to pay for it in one way or another, then no harm is being done to me, and I have no problem with the Honours List. Same with this type of award. I'm not a big fan of "Best of ..." anything, and I just view culinary awards (especially those run by people like Carlton) as a sometimes interesting starting point for more intelligent discussion.

We all fall, too often, into the error of analogizing our food discussions by reference to other fields of endeavour. Maybe we think we all don't understand food and restaurants well enough actually to discuss an issue with reference to food and restaurants Talking about real estate agents and car dealers and suchlike is simply not sufficiently close to the subject of this thread to make analogy useful. Most people go to restaurants, exactly as Simon says, to "have a good time". I naturally exclude places like MacDonalds where that could surely only apply to those too young to pay the bill or to be upsold to Most people's first need in a restaurant is to be told what the restaurant has to offer, and the assistance of a knowledgeable server is therefore considered by most people to be a positive asset. And many people are consciously open to suggestion, and will make this clear to their server either specifically or by implication. A good server will determine the role he is being requested to play within the first few minutes of his contact with the customer. Of course many restauarants simply do not have good servers, and as Simon pointed out, those restaurants are missing a huge opportunity for profit and customer satisfaction. Once the ground rules between customer and server have been defined in those first minutes, a server will breach the rules at his own peril.

So did the Mamas and the Papas

As with all selling anywhere, the salesperson needs first to understand his own product, and then needs to get (very quickly) to understand what his customer needs. A salesperson who can do that will rarely annoy a customer by being pushy, and a salesperson who can't shouldn't try. I rarely encounter upselling in the UK, except when restaurants (particularly Chinese, for some reason) try to sell you another drink the instant your glass is empty. But I can't remember ever having additional or higher price dishes pushed at me. I think I would instinctively react against any server trying to do that who didn't know what I liked or generally ordered. And in any circumstance where I thought I was being persuaded simply to spend more money, I would probably actually complain at the time, and would be unlikely to return to the restaurant.

I have never been chucked out of a members' club. I would like to see someone try to chuck Simon out of any sort of club. Another two reasons for ensuring my attendance on Wednesday. I am having a suit specially asbestosised for protection against the possibility that Mr Gruff might still be honing his flaming skills.

My staff now think I'm insane, Jaybee. I just burst out laughing at your post. Maybe my staff are right.

Oh I preferred you not sober Jaybee, I cannot imagine you ever as being grinchy (whatever that means) and I think you were entirely right in your previous comments. Of course this thread is interesting -- all threads at eGullet are that, even the old OffTopic threads. But your new-made claim that this is relevant (to food) is stretching things a bit far, I think Actually, my only criticism of this thread is that it was removed from the womb (of the original Otto thread) by Caesarean rather than natural processes You see, I told you that the disappearance of the Off Topi Forum would not inhibit the range of eGulletarian discussion

Sorry, but I steadfastly refuse to ridicule this $40 Kobeburger. Well not until after I've tried it, anyway

Let me say initially that while I think the primary questions are of value, I dislike the optional answers provided by Robert. I agree with Michael Lewis's view that gastronomy may be compared with couture, but I find no validity of comparison between gastronomy and literature, or art, or indeed any cultural pursuit. Of course people become gastronomes for as many different reasons as people read books. For pleasure, for interest, for education, for enlightenment, for lack of other things to do, and for pereceived status. We all know people whose conversation revolves around how well-read they are, and of course some of those can quote hundreds of "serious and important" books and authors without being able to quote a single idea from any of them. Such people read by the yard, but they don't understand. Similarly with gastronomy, there are people who "collect" the restaurants they have visited for no other reason than that they want everyone to know they have done it. Those are the braggarts, and I find such people relatively harmless, but unimportant. The idea that gastronomy can add to an understanding of the culture is really stretching a point. To understand French history and culture, it may indeed be of some small value to know how and what the French ate and eat. But the thought that eating at Alain Ducasse or Arpege is desirable to achieve that understanding is patently ludicrous. Far better to eat at a small bistro in Montreal or Marseilles, one would have thought Michael Lewis raises the spectre of elitism, and he is right to say that elitism (the definition with the denigratory connotations) is at the heart of the questions posed by Robert. Perhaps this is most evident when considering the gastronomy of wine rather than food. The history of the manufacture of wine has generated a mystique which has been carefully fostered by wine buffs. This is not to say that oenology is not a valid subject of interest, nor to say that it is not a worthy hedonistic and intellectual pursuit. But at the end of the day, wine is just another drink which happens to be able to be produced with many variations. But I can think of no other field within gastronomy whcih is capable of so much esoteric discussion (although perhaps truffles come closest). All of this makes oenology an ideal pursit for elitists. A wine buff need not explain or justify his statements in terms which can be understood by anyone other than another wine buff. Oenology has its own unique language. It is all too easy for an elitist oenologist to say "This is better because I, an avowed expert, say it is better. You, a non-expert, cannot understand this unless and until you join our ranks. Until then, you are not qualified to express a view, and nor are you worthy of further explanation from me." That is not, of course, to say that all wine buffs take that position, nor that the position is in itself invalid. But it does raise a suspicion in the non-expert's mind that there may be an elitist context to the pursuit. That same suspicion certainly surrounds the whole field of gastronomy. Robert's final question starts with "Is becoming well-dined a worthy goal ... ". I ignore the qualifications, which I think are not meaningful. But the answer to this part of the question is a simple "No". For me, becoming well-dined is not a goal at all. It is the process of fine dining that provides me with pleasure, and interest. There is no goal or objective that I am attempting to reach.

Never heard of it. Is that a snack bar for teachers, or just another trendy pub ?

What was the answer you used to give them, Ron ?

I agree with Wilfrid here. I think that most "definitions" of art are derived from an example rather than from some hypothetical concept of what it is or should be. Art is in the eyes of the beholder. As Wilfrid says, the question of whether or not food is art is little more than a consensus of people who are interested in the question. And even the consensors will generally accept the perfect right of those who disagree with them. At this moment in our civilisation, there is a broad consensus that a range of traditional forms of painting, music, literature, theatre and so on are art. Around that group, there are some modern forms upon which there is significant disagreement. History says that these forms will either simply disappear or become accepted in the future within the main body of art. Beyond changing forms of traditional fields of endeavour, there are entirely new alleged "art forms" which have still to stand that test of acceptance over time. I guess photography, which has exisetd only a hundred years, has only recently "qualified", and computer generated sound, animation and pictures are still undergoing the test. Cuisine has been around for long enough to have been tested, but I think the interest level has not. I would take the view that the breadth and depth of interest in cuisine has existed for maybe 30 years, so it is still a fresh-faced candidate. It is not too soon to be discussing the strength of its candidature, but perhaps 20 years too soon top reach a final judgement.

Yep.

I assume you mean "first in the USA" Jim, since I have always assumed that the very first hamburger was eaten where it was invented, in Hamburg, Germany in the 19th century. I agree with you about hamburgers in high-end restaurants. I no longer eat anything but ground-to-order burgers, because I find the others frankly not eatable. I am definitely going to try the Kobe-burger at Homestead (tourist or not), and have also yet to sample Luger's.

Now what do we have in mind here ? Italy, perhaps ?

I shall be there, sans repute, sans girth. I haven't had a cocktail since nineteen canteen (apart from Bloody Mary's, which I suspect don't qualify) and this is just an unmissable opportunity. And I shall be delighted to buy a birthday beverage for anyone whose birthday falls on the 25th January in this year or any other.