In search of the perfect pastry crust

[browniebaker]

We've covered crust recipes; anyone have any opinions on pie plates? I have an unglazed pie plate from Sassafrass. It gives the best bottom crusts-- browned and crisp, not soggy.

My favorite pie-plate is the Anchor Hocking glass plate, much better than the Pyrex glass plate because Anchor Hocking's rim is level and does a great job of keeping the crimp of the pastry from sliding inward when it softens (before crisping up) during baking. The Pyrex plate has a rim that slopes inward slightly.

I prefer glass to any other material because the transparency of glass lets radiant heat improve browning and lets you see how the crust is browning.

I do own, though, the Emile Henri Couleurs fluted dishes in the individual-size round pie dishes as well as the individual-size heart-shaped flan dishes. They are too cute to resist. And I do adore little pies.

[Wendy DeBord]

Can someone please explain to me how to keep my dough round?  I turn it 45 degrees after every pass, but I can't keep the damn shape.

When I portion out pie dough I always pat/press it into rounds. Whenever your rolling out any dough its easiest to start with your dough patted into that shape so all your doing is following the shape as you roll. It's much harder to start with a round piece of dough and shape it into a rectangle .......

Rolling out your dough..........hum, it's possible that your over-thinking this(worrying too much) and freezing up instead of relaxing and rolling. Try to forget about the 45 degree turning for now. Instead think of each pass as flattening this round disk. It's going to stay in a round shape if your exerting even pressure and turning it as you flatten it. You want to check and see if your dough has accidently stuck to the table- so I lift up my dough and give it a little spin/turn and I probably toss a little more flour underneath it for insurance. I roll out again, lift and turn dough, roll again, lift and turn dough. etc... My crusts aren't always perfectly round, in fact thats pretty rare. Your in control, forcing your dough into this round shape. If it starts to go a stray don't be scared to cut off an area and patch in.

Oh, also I find some rolling pins much harder (taking more skill to use then others) to use. I prefer a large heavy pin with ballbearing handles. I feel the pin does all the work I'm just there to guide it. The non handle shaped ones (many hosts on foodtv like to show off using these) are MUCH harder to use, or learn to use. It requires you to have even pressure and very coordinated left and right hands/arms. Frankly I think these pins became popular only because of foodtv. In days gone by people didn't have rolling pin choices. I'd guess someone picked up a round stick and made it work. Personally I think man invented a pin with ball bearings in the handle to make the work easier.........I don't care how fashionable a tapered pin is, I choose ease over fashion.

When it comes to defrosting a flat/thinner object seems to defrost quicker then a ball.........and since I'm probably going to roll my dough into a round, it's easiest to freeze my dough in flattened rounds.

Baking from a frozen state. I know.......the first time someone showed me this I thought it was crazy. I thought, your ruining this fresh fruit! But if you think about it, the act of cooking fruit changes it's texture, and freezing it then baking really doesn't do harm. Consider all those frozen ready to bake pies at the grocery store.........it works pretty well doesn't it? You'll have to try this to really believe me....you'll see your fruit won't over bake. Typically it just has time to come up to a boil (with-in the crust) and thicken. Instead with fresh unfrozen fruit, your fruit comes to a boil much quicker in your crust and boils for much longer until your crust is done. I bake at 375F straight from the freezer. Sometimes (at work) I might have frozen fruit, (like blueberriies) but typically it's not. I do everything the same- I roll out my crust, fill my shell with fruit, roll out top crust, wet edges, crimp together then place it in the freezer. I even egg wash or milk wash on the frozen pie before I bake it as I would with a non-frozen pie.

I personally love clear pyrex pans. I still need to check the bottom of my pies. It seems no matter how much experience I have nothing beats a visual check.......sometimes I'm wrong and my crust isn't set. So being able to see the bottom-to me is wonderful, a great tool. I don't care about brands like 'pyrex' it the clear see thru bottom that thrills me. They also bake from a frozen state with-out breaking.

(p.s. at this rate I think were covering my crust article better on this thread then I did writing it alone with-out feed back. You've gotten some great advice here from everyone!!!)

Oops I thought of something else, I spray my pyrex pan with pan spray before placing my dough in it. You have to use a pan spray that doesn't contain water only fat, water makes things stick.......I don't know why they sell any pan spray with water, but they do. Anyway I think it does too things for me. 1. it prevents the finished pie crust from sticking in the pan. 2. the thin-thin layer of fat between my crust and my pan seems to help crisp my crust bottom better then with-out it. (Think of it as frying if you want...but it's not that much extra fat)

[Mottmott]

Do you include pointers on rolling the dough out?  I can't seem to master that skill no matter how many crusts I roll.

Neither could I til I learned to ignore the cautions about adding too much water. Most recipes imply about 3 Tbs water, I find it can take up to twice that. It probably depends on the flour. I find that if I get it a little too wet as sometimes happens in corners of the processor, being sure to refrigerate it properly and a bit longer compensates.

Using all butter I get a marvelously flaky pastry from the processor. I attribute this to chilling at every stage (I use chilled flour, ice cold water, FROZEN butter chopped into irregular sized pieces, some quite large, chill it before rolling, chill it after rolling and before filling, chilling after filling). And also I take great care that some of my butter is finely chopped enough that the flour feels mealy, but some of the butter is left pea sized or bigger. This can be done by adding the butter in two stages, or my (easier) preference is to use different sized chunks of butter.

Another tip for the home baker is to bake the pie just before using it, leaving only enough time for it to cool down. Most of the time you can make it ahead and keep it in the fridge or freezer. If it's a custard based filling, keep it separate til just before baking.

Also, for the bottom crust I find that sealing it with egg or jam encourages bottom flakiness. Oh how i hate sodden bottoms!

edited to add:

One thing that hasn't been discussed is the rustic pie: roll out the dough, pile on the fruit and bring the edges of the dough over the top. It's one of my favorites. When I make these or a tart in a metal pan, I will frequently start it on a stone, moving it up as needed to keep the bottom from overbrowning or to get the top crust to brown. I usually do this on a metal sheet pan to keep goo and excess butter from the stone, so I could probably do it with glass pans, too.

Edited July 17, 2004 by Mottmott (log)

[TrishCT]

I like the idea of having pie crust premixed and on hand but I have to think that it's ultimately not a good idea. Your flour will absord more moisture from the refidgerator and odors. This will play with how much water you'll need to hydrate your flour. I'd rather see you mix it all up at once, portion out and freeze your extras.

Nope nope nope, it works, it truly does. Keep it in a tupperware type sealed plastic container. No absorption of odors....

{Doing my best Justin Wilson impression}

I gawranteee.

[iguana]

Do you include pointers on rolling the dough out?  I can't seem to master that skill no matter how many crusts I roll.

Neither could I til I learned to ignore the cautions about adding too much water. Most recipes imply about 3 Tbs water, I find it can take up to twice that.

I had the same revelation about adding water-- so many recipes emphasize that you shouldn't add too much water that I ended up overcompensating and adding too little water.

This thread is great-- I'm delighted to see so many passionate pie-bakers.

[phaelon56]

Just a quick note to report that the crust on the fruit tart pictured above was good ad flaky. The suggestions here helped immensely and the next is sure to be better (which I will prepare next week). Thanks to all. I need to work on a better glaze and find a filling that's less sweet (for my taste) but it was a huge hit and was inhaled by all.

[viva]

Glad that tart was tasty, phaelon56, because it was beautiful!

On the butter front, frankly, I've never used lard (!), and I don't know where to get it. I'm intrigued by the possibilities, though. I'm very lazy about cutting up the butter, usually only cut into tablespoon-size pieces before adding to the processor. I brush the crust before baking with more butter, then sprinkle with a coarse sugar (I like my fillings pretty tart, so the sugary topping gives it balance and adds a nice crispness).

On the food processor front, I feel I get the best control by pulsing carefully. If I don't see pieces of butter when I'm rolling out the dough, it's too processed.

Finally, on the water front, I live in Arizona, so the poor flour needs a little more water! I always use more than the recipe calls for. I've developed a good feel over time for how the dough just sticks together when I pinch it and, anyway, I tend to roll out the dough with a healthy amount of flour that seems to balance the water out.

Totally intrigued by the freeze-and-bake concept for fruit pies. Seems like it would keep the fruit from getting cooked to oblivion. Does it give the juices of the fruit enough time to absorb the cornstarch and become nice & bubbly?

Does anyone have Shirley O. Corriher's Cookwise? Fairly scientific approach to cooking, but a good analysis of pastry dough variables.

[phaelon56]

I've never used lard (!), and I don't know where to get it.

I just bought some today for the first time to season my latest garage sale treasure - a Lodge cast iron "corn bread skillet" (it has pie shaped indentations that allow you to bake eight wedges of corn bread - how cool is that?).

It should be avalable adjacent to butter and margarine in the dairy section of nearly any grocery store in one pound blocks (shaped just like a pound of butter). Mine was the Morrel brand but was labeled as "Snow Cap Manteca". I had to read the fine print to verify that it was lard.

About rolling dough. I use a pastry cloth and the matching cloth rolling pin cover. Has always worked really well for me but I dont' turn the dough. I just trun the rolling pin. Judicious use of gradually decreasing downwards pressure as one rolls outward pushes a sort of "wave" of dough that starts out thicker when more pressure is applied and then thins out towards the edge. It seems pretty intuitive - I just keep pushing outwards until the center is the thickness I want and then push the outer edges out. It's never really quite round but trimming takes care of that.

[bloviatrix]

Can someone please explain to me how to keep my dough round?  I turn it 45 degrees after every pass, but I can't keep the damn shape.

When I portion out pie dough I always pat/press it into rounds. Whenever your rolling out any dough its easiest to start with your dough patted into that shape so all your doing is following the shape as you roll. It's much harder to start with a round piece of dough and shape it into a rectangle .......

Rolling out your dough..........hum, it's possible that your over-thinking this(worrying too much) and freezing up instead of relaxing and rolling. Try to forget about the 45 degree turning for now. Instead think of each pass as flattening this round disk. It's going to stay in a round shape if your exerting even pressure and turning it as you flatten it. You want to check and see if your dough has accidently stuck to the table- so I lift up my dough and give it a little spin/turn and I probably toss a little more flour underneath it for insurance. I roll out again, lift and turn dough, roll again, lift and turn dough. etc... My crusts aren't always perfectly round, in fact thats pretty rare. Your in control, forcing your dough into this round shape. If it starts to go a stray don't be scared to cut off an area and patch in.

Oh, also I find some rolling pins much harder (taking more skill to use then others) to use. I prefer a large heavy pin with ballbearing handles. I feel the pin does all the work I'm just there to guide it. The non handle shaped ones (many hosts on foodtv like to show off using these) are MUCH harder to use, or learn to use. It requires you to have even pressure and very coordinated left and right hands/arms. Frankly I think these pins became popular only because of foodtv. In days gone by people didn't have rolling pin choices. I'd guess someone picked up a round stick and made it work. Personally I think man invented a pin with ball bearings in the handle to make the work easier.........I don't care how fashionable a tapered pin is, I choose ease over fashion.

Sinclair, thanks for all your advice. I'm beginning to think that I'm psyching myself out. The last few times I had to resort to pressing the dough in the tart pan because I got so frustrated.

As you suggest, I start with a round of dough, but somehow it always end up breaking/splitting and turning into "the blob."

The only other that comes to mind is that perhaps my dough is too cold? How long should I let the dough sit out for before beginning to roll out?

Thanks!!

[maxmillan]

To keep the dough round as I'm rolling it, I turn it 1/4 to 1/3 way and rolling from center out. I turn it with cupped

hands on the boards so the dough keeps a rounded shape. I do this until the circle is too large to turn with my cupped

hands. So the outside of both hands are on the board (thumbs up) and my cupped hands shape the dough as I turn

it. Hope that is clear enough. If the edges are cracked this minimizes it and I trim them off when I fit the round onto

the plate.

Thanks for the advice on freezing the pie and baking it frozen. I usually make a tester mini pie but found that the juice

percolates through the edge of the crust and onto the oven bottom (but doesn't happen with the larger pies.)

With this method I will make more mini pies for the freezer.

[Wendy DeBord]

How long should I let the dough sit out for before beginning to roll out?

Oh I feel bad I can't give you an exact answer. It depends upon how warm your kitchen is as to how fast the dough warms up. If your dough is at room temp. it's too warm. When it's too cold it really takes some pressure to roll it out..............so it's really depends upon your enviroment and how you work.

I can roll my enriched crust when it's straight out of the cooler..........but it takes more strengh. As the dough starts to warm up you can press on it, if the dough gives and you can leave marks on it, it's warm enough.

Baking from a frozen state: The filling does come up to a boil to thicken. I don't change my thickener at all. It takes almost 1 hour in the oven on 375f before it boils in a pie from the freezer. Where as, a fresh unfrozen fruit pie will come to a boil well before then, probably 1/2 hour into baking.

[TrishCT]

What on earth was the person thinking who came up with the expression "Easy as pie"...?

[cakewalk]

What on earth was the person thinking who came up with the expression "Easy as pie"...?

That's why it was later revised to, "piece of cake"

[russ parsons]

good replies all. i did a story about this several years ago: my summer in pies, where i spent the entire summer trying to get a basic pie crust right. i finally did ... well, pretty much. the real answer is that the only way to make a good pie crust is to make a lot of bad ones. it's a pure technique thing, rather than a typical recipe/ingredient thing. practice, practice, practice.

oh, and one weird tip on rolling that i've never seen anyone else mention. maybe this is just me, but i realized about mid-July that when i was rolling out the crusts, i was pushing down on the dough. make sure you're rolling across the dough, stretching it, rather than pushing down, flattening it. for me, it came down to holding my elbows in against my body rather than out. i know that sounds weird, but try it both ways and you'll see how it affects your rolling.

[jgarner53]

oh, and one weird tip on rolling that i've never seen anyone else mention. maybe this is just me, but i realized about mid-July that when i was rolling out the crusts, i was pushing down on the dough. make sure you're rolling across the dough, stretching it, rather than pushing down, flattening it. for me, it came down to holding my elbows in against my body rather than out. i know that sounds weird, but try it both ways and you'll see how it affects your rolling.

I'd never thought about that. I mean, I know that I lighten up toward the edge of the crust, but I'd never thought about whether I press down or roll across.

And so I'm sitting here at work, not a rolling pin for miles, and certainly no pie dough, trying to mimic how I roll out a crust. Good thing no one can see me.

But oh, how I want a pie!

[ronnie_suburban]

for me, it came down to holding my elbows in against my body rather than out. i know that sounds weird...

This is a tip I often see given when people ask for advice on whisking--holding elbow's against one's body while whisking is supposed to reduce the fatigue factor considerably.

=R=

[bloviatrix]

Russ, any possibility you can share you pie article with us?

[russ parsons]

i'm afraid the times lawyers disapprove. but there is a chapter on it in "french fry"

[bloviatrix]

i'm afraid the times lawyers disapprove. but there is a chapter on it in "french fry"

It just so happens that my heavily highlighted copy sits right next to the computer? I've to re-visit the chapter. Thanks.

[Reap]

sorry if I'm asking something that has already been answered (I've tried to read ALL the post but I only get so long at the computer before my baby demands my attention! ) but:

Does anyone know if there is a difference between using Lard or using Shortening in your pie dough? Is one surperior over the other when making a pie crust?

[TrishCT]

sorry if I'm asking something that has already been answered (I've tried to read ALL the post but I only get so long at the computer before my baby demands my attention! ) but:

Does anyone know if there is a difference between using Lard or using Shortening in your pie dough? Is one surperior over the other when making a pie crust?

I think it's a matter of personal preference and taste. There are those who swear by lard and those who swear by vegetable shortening. I've used both and I fall into the vegetable shortening camp.

[iguana]

I also bake my fruit pies from a frozen state. By the time the fruit in the center gets hot enough to thicken, your crust will be crisped. Theres really no diference between what a fresh fruit pies fruit turns out like then a fresh fruit frozen then baked. Either way the fruit becomes soft. When the fruit is frozen going into the oven it takes longer to defrost insultating it from heat until the crust catches up......so you fruit will actually seem fresher this way.

I wrote a class on making pies crusts for eg........it should be posted soon.

I tried the bake-from-frozen method this weekend and it worked great. Several weeks ago I made two cherry pies using frozen pie cherries. One was baked immediately with my usual method (425 for 15' then 350 until done, about 40') The second pie went into the freezer. I baked the second pie on Sunday, following Sinclair's instructions (do not defrost, bake at 375 until done). It took a very long time to bake but produced a lovely, well-thickened pie. My crust recipe contains about 1T of sugar, so it tends to brown faster-- I had to cover it with foil for the last 15 minutes to keep it from over browning. The pie that had not been frozen expressed substantially more liquid-- it was very watery compared to the pie that was frozen first.

In my hands, this method is a winner. It certainly is worthwhile making two pies and freezing one to bake later. Thanks, Sinclair. So, when will we see the piecrust course? Pie season's a-wastin'.

[Wendy DeBord]

The classes don't begin again until fall. So sometime then it should be posted.

I have to add.........I bought the book Dessert University on Sunday and have been reading everynight after work. GREAT read! Anyway I had to chuckle big time because what he wrote on pie crusts was- that he uses all shortening for his pie dough!!! He knows that his countrymen would scream over that-but he does what he believes his American clients want-a very flakie crust. He then says he always heavily laces his fruit with butter to make up the taste.

Side note: I'm loving his book! His personal notes of experience are fab.!

[phaelon56]

I'm glad to see this thread surface again as I just made another pie over the weekend and the crsut was amazingly flaky. It remained flaky on the bottom after baking and even a few days later after being refrigerated and reheated. I blind baked the bottom crust for about 6 or 7 minutes and then did an egg white wash on it. Allowed to cool, then added my filling of sliced firm peaches with a splash of cognac, splash of vanilla, fresh nutmeg, fresh cinnamon and 1/4 cup Splenda to accomodate a diabetic friend). Rolled out and added the top crust, froze for a few hours and baked. It was a hit and oddly enough I think it was actually better the following day than it was the first night.

I used many of the tips here and relied on primarily butter (1 1/4 stick) with 1/4 cup Crisco. About the question of lard vs shortening (e.g. Crisco). I rpobably read it here but have been advised that supermarket lard is hydrogenated just liek Crisco and lacks the advantages of traditional lard. if you can find an Amish market in your area they may have the non-hydrogenated type.

By the way.... the design on the top crust was supposed to be a peach (note the stem) but my GF was immediately convinced that it was a heart done just for her. Uhhhh.... come to think of it.... that was a heart. Where in the hell did that stem thign come from?

[viva]

It's not a stem, it's an arrow! Cupid's arrow. Just for her. Yep.

Nice lookin' pie.

Edited August 19, 2004 by viva (log)