New York's fine-dining lunch culture

[Fat Guy]

To me there is no meal more enjoyable than a leisurely lunch at a fine restaurant. Not only do I prefer to have my largest meal of the day at lunchtime, and not only do I think almost every restaurant with windows is more attractive at lunchtime, but also most restaurants have traditionally offered better value at lunchtime: the same or similar food for half as much money (or less). As a member of the un- . . . I mean self-employed class, this has long worked out well for me.

It would seem that this lunch discount has always reflected the reduced demand for tables at lunchtime. However, it seems like it used to be a given that good restaurants in New York City would be open for lunch. In the past decade or so, that seems to have changed. The recent shutdown of Cafe Gray's lunch service in the Time Warner Center felt, to me, like another nail in the coffin of the fine-dining lunch. A few years in, Ducasse pulled its lunch service. Daniel serves no lunch. Jean-Georges Vongerichten recently implied that without his deeply discounted lunch Jean Georges would be empty by day. Weekend lunch hours are even more unusual, though there's always Bouley.

In most of the US, the best restaurants just aren't open for lunch. But in New York we've tended to have enough business lunch demand to justify keeping the restaurant open -- even if there was little actual net profit for the restaurant, it was always a way to keep the staff working. Will this tradition die off as more people take shorter lunches, have smaller expense accounts and work (or work out) through lunch? Or will there always be enough demand to keep the best places open at lunchtime?

[oakapple]

Jean-Georges Vongerichten recently implied that without his deeply discounted lunch Jean Georges would be empty by day.

Do you think Jean Georges is profitable at lunch, or does he stay open as a loss-leader for dinner?

In most of the US, the best restaurants just aren't open for lunch. But in New York we've tended to have enough business lunch demand to justify keeping the restaurant open -- even if there was little actual net profit for the restaurant, it was always a way to keep the staff working. Will this tradition die off as more people take shorter lunches, have smaller expense accounts and work (or work out) through lunch? Or will there always be enough demand to keep the best places open at lunchtime?

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I don't think it will die off entirely, but I think the market for luxury lunches will never again as brisk as it used to be. Probably it will be limited to certain very successful restaurants, or in neighborhoods where there is enough of the "right kind" of business traffic. Edited February 27, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[weinoo]

...even if there was little actual net profit for the restaurant, it was always a way to keep the staff working.

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I actually think the opposite is true - there's always kitchen staff working, (and, since it tends to be slower, prep cooks can learn w/o the pressure of being in the weeds) so by adding, let's say, two servers, maybe the restaurant can add a little net profit to the bottom line.

[JohnL]

I also have been thinking about this. I too often prefer lunch to dinner in a fine restaurant.

Even in the most formal of restaurants there is a slightly more relaxed atmosphere, less tension, things seem more convivial, the restaurant is not as "on stage" as during dinner and patrons seem to be more interested in good food and conversation and less aware of "being in a special place." Everyone seems to be less conscious of where they are, what they are doing, and more aware of each other. I believe that the staff is is actually more focused on you and less tense less concerned with other things other people.

I also agree that most restaurants "look" better in daylight and there is an air of naughtiness--the rest of the world is scurrying about, working and we are here relaxing enjoying a drink or some wine and great food.

I had a great lunch at cafe Boulud recently, the place was maybe three quarters full, there was a nice mix of upper Eastside ladies who lunch, well to do businessmen (antiques, old money finance?) some tourists etc one or two dining alone. the staff couldn't have been more congenial, there was even time to chat a bit with them. The captain stopped by more than once to inquire about the food. The room looked great in the sunlight.

Another recent lunch at L' Atelier Robuchon at the counter--we brought wine which the staff opened and discussed with us--they couldn't have been friendlier or more casually professional (a good thing). The atmosphere was more conducive to enjoying the food--there was less a sense of "we are at Robuchon" no sense that we were part of a theatrical endeavor. Again the staff was amenable to chatting about anything--we learned something about some wonderful people--a very young server who was learning more about wine--she was curious about what we had brought with us, the feeling was that we were part of a family rather than server and patron--though everyone was very professional--there wasn't that sort of sheer curtain of formality between staff and diner one experiences at dinner. Again the staff was not overly friendly but rather let us engage them as we wished--they were just more open to it.

I think the future of lunch depends upon the usual--location, location, location. The midtown lunch fixtures are fewer than ever due to the direction business has taken--less formal less time. Places in Hotels will do better--tourists etc. "Hangouts" for specific industries should be ok--Michaels, The Four Seasons etc. There are still enough upper east side ladies who lunch to keep a few places going. It would be a shame if the mid day dining experience is lost to "progress."

This brings me to another favorite dining time for me. Early dinner. I have found that dining at say five or six pm can, depending upon the restaurant, be a terrific experience. better than diner at eight!

[weinoo]

I have found that dining at say five or six pm can, depending upon the restaurant, be a terrific experience. better than diner at eight!

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Totally agree with that, as FG pointed out quite some time ago.

[Nathan]

Jean-Georges Vongerichten recently implied that without his deeply discounted lunch Jean Georges would be empty by day.

Do you think Jean Georges is profitable at lunch, or does he stay open as a loss-leader for dinner?

In most of the US, the best restaurants just aren't open for lunch. But in New York we've tended to have enough business lunch demand to justify keeping the restaurant open -- even if there was little actual net profit for the restaurant, it was always a way to keep the staff working. Will this tradition die off as more people take shorter lunches, have smaller expense accounts and work (or work out) through lunch? Or will there always be enough demand to keep the best places open at lunchtime?

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I don't think it will die off entirely, but I think the market for luxury lunches will never again as brisk as it used to be. Probably it will be limited to certain very successful restaurants, or in neighborhoods where there is enough of the "right kind" of business traffic.

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He doesn't need it as a loss leader for dinner.

I'm told by someone who used to be in JG management that the lunches at JG, JoJo and Perry Street are designed to break even. He already has a prep crew working for dinner...its not too much of a hassle to schedule a couple extra cooks and it gives wait staff an opportunity to make some extra money. Ingredient costs are precisely calibrated.

I do think time is the big issue. I work within walking distance of JG and never make it for lunch. its just too big a chunk of the day. I hit Perry Street for lunch often because its open on the weekends and I live close by.

[oakapple]

"Hangouts" for specific industries should be ok--Michaels, The Four Seasons etc.

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Places like The Four Seasons can run on reputation more-or-less indefinitely. The question is whether a new place of that kind could exist.

[weinoo]

He already has a prep crew working for dinner...its not too much of a hassle to schedule a couple extra cooks and it gives wait staff an opportunity to make some extra money.  Ingredient costs are precisely calibrated.

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Or even to teach some of that prep crew how to work the line, or new wait staff how to serve.

If they are able to sell some wine or a couple of cocktails, an espresso or two, they're (the restaurant) probably making a little money as well.