William Grimes says Greek cuisine is lowly

[Fat Guy]

A recent New York Times essay by William Grimes, the former restaurant reviewer, was generally innocuous. It was about the food scene in Queens, particularly Astoria and Flushing. But there was one paragraph that struck me as worthy of further examination:

Let us not romanticize the Greek restaurants of Astoria. For some reason, many a food writer, charmed by the neighborhood, has gone weak in the knees over steam-table moussaka, rubbery fried calamari and greasy lamb shanks. Greek cuisine does not, even at its best, ascend to great heights. For a time, Elias Corner on 31st Street enjoyed a cult reputation that utterly mystified me. It is an estiatorio, a type of restaurant in which customers approach a fish counter, point to their choice and pay by the pound. The fish is painted with some olive oil, strewn with a few herbs and grilled. That’s it.

For some reason, this formula besotted New York for several years, even though rank amateurs could produce the same results at home.

Now he does go on to praise another restaurant that serves a different style of Greek food, but that statement, "Greek cuisine does not, even at its best, ascend to great heights," is still out there.

I beg to differ with Mr. Grimes. While Greek cuisine may not be one of the four or five I'd put on the short list of the world's top cuisines, and while there is plenty of bad Greek food out there (just as there is plenty of bad French and Italian food), I think Greek cuisine decidedly can "ascend to great heights."

I'm wondering if William Grimes just doesn't know much about Greek cuisine. I believe I've mentioned before that one of the best food books to come out in the past few years is Diane Kochilas's The Glorious Foods of Greece, which goes region by region through Greece, exploring its culinary wonders. Dishes like carp roe and fennel patties (from Chios), mackerel stuffed with raisins and walnuts (from Lesvos), savory pastries filled with pumpkin, fennel and cheese (kolokythenies) -- I find it difficult not to take such cuisine seriously.

Perhaps he's only ragging on the grilled-fish taverna cuisine of Greece, however even there I think he misses the mark. A beautifully grilled fish is the centerpiece of such a meal, just as it could be at many top restaurants in the world (go tell Alain Ducasse or Mario Batali that a simple grilled or roasted fish doesn't "ascend to great heights") but is by no means its only component. The whole world of mezze, especially the wonderful spreads, is worthy of plenty of respect, as are the wonderful desserts of Greece.

Any other thoughts here?

[docsconz]

I am in absolute agreement with you here, Steven. To paint an entire cuisine as broadly inferior due to a number of mediocre practitioners is absurd. While it may be easy to grill a fish at home, the process of doing it well is much more difficult than it appears starting with selecting the best fish. When done well with top quality ingredients the results are sublime. Then that is only a small portion of what comprises Greek cuisine.

[Busboy]

This is my fifth trip to Athens in the last year-and-a-half, and I’m coming to think of Athens as a merely good food town, but a great place to eat. Hearty, well-prepared fare, accompanied by decent wine and low checks is widely available. Dining is done outdoors whenever possible, in spaces that are artfully assembled and carefully maintained. People eat in families – and are served family-style -- or in groups, and linger, unhurried, as long as they like. And the servers seem genuinely pleased to be entertaining out-of-town guests, if occasionally baffled by our early dining habits and need to rush away from the table after a good meal. It’s not Paris. But I’ll eat out in Athens any time.

My opinion on this subject has been expressed at length. I will, however, point out that "estiatorio" is merely Greek for restaurant, (as opposed to an "ouzeria" or a "taverna") and that what he is describing is more properly know as a fish-taverna.

We had a long discussion on another thread about whether one country's food is "better" than another and I came down on the "yes" side. And I don't think, as a whole, I care for Greek cooking as much as other cusines. But I'd go to dinner in Athens any time and wonder at Grimes rush to judgment based on a few bad meals in Queens. Maybe if he looked past the moussaka...

[Pan]

I happen to love a well-made moussaka, though. Perfect comfort food, and there's a lot to be said for that!

I think that the perfectly made squid and octopus that you can get in good Greek restaurants is just wonderful. It seems like Italians and Greeks have a much higher percentage of squid-and-octopus experts than various other nationalities. The result is smoky, tender, delicious, and not rubbery or overly chewy.

[ghostrider]

There's also the excellent tradition of pikilia, platters of roasted, grilled and/or fried items designed for a shared meal. Had one just last weekend. Never had a tapas meal that was any better.

Does this represent great heights? Maybe not the pinnacle, but it's at a pretty good altitude.

[Fat Guy]

The amazing thing, to me, is that editors let this sort of thing slip by. I mean, here in an eG Forums discussion, I fully expect that, without the aid of an editor, I'll say three or four really stupid things a day. But a New York Times piece goes through several stages of editorial oversight. Did nobody notice that one of the writers there just said, "Greek cuisine does not, even at its best, ascend to great heights"?Come on, that's when you say to the writer, "Hey, Bill, you're really overreaching here. You either need to justify this statement with something approaching rigor and expertise, or you need to narrow it to a less general claim. But what you're writing here, it's beneath you, us and our readers." Maybe, just maybe, if the claim had been that in Astoria's Greek restaurants the cuisine doesn't ascend to great heights, and if the author had actually eaten in every such restaurant, that could be an opinion worth printing. But has the guy ever been to Greece, and if so to enough regions and restaurants (and homes) to make such a blanket statement about Greek cuisine? Has he done any reading about Greek cuisine? If I have six or seven Greek cookbooks on my shelf, it means there must be a thousand of them out there. Does he have even one? When you consider that Greece is, historically, one of the epicenters of human civilization, it's no surprise that even 2,500 years ago there was a very advanced Greek cuisine on this planet.

[JohnL]

The amazing thing, to me, is that editors let this sort of thing slip by. I mean, here in an eG Forums discussion, I fully expect that, without the aid of an editor, I'll say three or four really stupid things a day. But a New York Times piece goes through several stages of editorial oversight. Did nobody notice that one of the writers there just said, "Greek cuisine does not, even at its best, ascend to great heights"?Come on, that's when you say to the writer, "Hey, Bill, you're really overreaching here. You either need to justify this statement with something approaching rigor and expertise, or you need to narrow it to a less general claim. But what you're writing here, it's beneath you, us and our readers." Maybe, just maybe, if the claim had been that in Astoria's Greek restaurants the cuisine doesn't ascend to great heights, and if the author had actually eaten in every such restaurant, that could be an opinion worth printing. But has the guy ever been to Greece, and if so to enough regions and restaurants (and homes) to make such a blanket statement about Greek cuisine? Has he done any reading about Greek cuisine? If I have six or seven Greek cookbooks on my shelf, it means there must be a thousand of them out there. Does he have even one? When you consider that Greece is, historically, one of the epicenters of human civilization, it's no surprise that even 2,500 years ago there was a very advanced Greek cuisine on this planet.

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Well it seems there is a real lack of editing most everywhere these days.

As for Greek cuisine:

It seems that our opinions of any cuisine are influenced by what is around us. I also believe that we judge food today in terms of French cuisine as a paradigm.

There is an age old debate as to whether Italian cuisine can ever be equal to French haute cuisine.

(will Del Posto get four stars?).

French cuisine can be viewed in distinct categories that we generally agree upon--bistro, brasserie, haute etc.

Other cuisines often do not have French equivalents and are thus difficult to define and categorize and thus deal with in a comparative manner (if one wants to "deal" with and compare cuisines).

As for what is around us. I have often felt that for a long time Spanish food in New York was in a

rut. There was a lot of mediocrity, decent neighborhood places that often showed flashes of potential but that mostly lacked one or more of the following: fresh and authentic ingredients, authentic recipes (I sensed a lot of the cooking was sort of Amercanized versions of Spanish dishes), laziness in preparation, boring wine lists, lack of refinement and innovation etc etc etc.

I feel the same way about the current state of affairs re: Greek food. Though as with Spanish food things are improving. A first step were restaurants like Periyali then Molyvos and the various estatoria. There were always one or two pretty good taverna type places (I liked the Acropolis on 48th Street--which may or may not still be there which was a step up from a good Greek diner--the always present gaggle of Greek Americans arguing something or other in Greek --politics I assumed--adding a lot of color to the place). I enjoy Uncle Nick's the same way I enjoy neighborhood French bistros and Italian equivalents. --here's the rub though--the comparisons to other cuisines.

I think, knowing a bit about Grimes, that he is using the French paradigm which IMOP becomes the French paradox. Is it fair top be using these comparisons in the first place--shouldn't any cuisine be judged on its own as to what it is and what it can be. I do not think that Greek food in New York has reached a point where it is what it can be and it certainly has not taken an added step where talented chefs are innovating and modernizing (is there a Greek equivalent to what is happening in Spain and barely happening here?). it is easier to find a well made lasagna than it is a well made moussaka.

I think that Grimes should have been more precise in his assessments and definitely provided support for his views. But hey--sloppy writing and criticism is the norm for most journalism today. Shouldn't we be judging writers and critics against a paradigm?

[Adam Balic]

Even with a direct statement like "Greek cuisine does not, even at its best, ascend to great heights", I still think that the article is directed towards restaurants in Queens rather then the foods of Greece specifically. As you say a quick look through Diane Kochilas' "The Glorious Foods of Greece" should be enought to demonstrate that the cooking from the region is very interesting and diverse.

Also, I don't think that it is the job of domestic regional cusines "ascend to great heights" (although this doesn't exclude the possiblity either), that is the job of restaurants and chefs. Is every dish in every region of France (and now Spain I guess) an inspiration? No, and you would be considered ignorant or at least foolish to suggest so. So I'm not quite sure why so many domestic regional cuisines get canned for not being something that they really aren't ment to be.

On the otherhand in regards to the restaurants in Queens, if they really are that poor then they deserve to have to boot put in. Honestly, a chef with imagination, training and a copy of "The Glorious Foods of Greece" should be able to put together a pretty interesting menu - if the that is what the punters want obviously. Maybe all they want and aspire to when they think of "Greek cooking" is steam-table moussaka, rubbery fried calamari and greasy lamb shanks"?

[KatieLoeb]

It's a ridiculous statement that never should have made it to print. It's a sweeping generalization of the sort that makes me Maybe, as Fat Guy suggested, he should have stuck to saying that Astoria's Greek food doesn't reach great heights. Or perhaps he's been so unfortunate as to never have enjoyed a decent Greek meal.

Greek cuisine, when well prepared, is one of my personal favorites. I go far out of my way several times annually to attend regional Greek church festivals to satisfy my cravings for it. I find that the Greek "church ladies" are almost without exception, pretty mean cooks, and the foods they serve at these festivals are always delicious. In fact, I belong to a mailing list for Greek Festivals that e-mails me when there's a festival in my area.

Until recently, there really weren't any high end Greek restaurants in Philly since the demise of Chef Theodore's a couple of decades ago. Now there's a place called Estia that I haven't been to yet because of reports of Brinks trucks pulling up to your wallet when the check comes. I'm sure I'll get there when I'm a little more flush, as I have heard the food is quite good. I did, however, have a fabulous meal at Molyvos in NY several years ago and that may have been the best Greek restaurant meal I've ever had.

[fiftydollars]

I admire his conviction.

Sure, it was, at best, an insulting and unfounded generalization about the food of one of our oldest cultures, but he wrote it with full, unwincing confidence. I really admire that about prejudiced people, bigots, and other types that often make insulting and unfounded generalizations about whole people and cultures.

The comment is almost beautiful in its perfect offensive-ness. Almost by implication I feel that he is saying that Greeks, do not, even at their best, ascend to great heights. If I didn’t know any better and if, he had made a similar comment about, say, Mexican food, I would say his demonstrated ignorance almost rises to the level of bigotry.

But I admire his conviction… or something like that.

[JohnL]

I admire his conviction.

Sure, it was, at best, an insulting and unfounded generalization about the food of one of our oldest cultures, but he wrote it with full, unwincing confidence. I really admire that about prejudiced people, bigots, and other types that often make insulting and unfounded generalizations about whole people and cultures.

The comment is almost beautiful in its perfect offensive-ness. Almost by implication I feel that he is saying that Greeks, do not, even at their best, ascend to great heights. If I didn’t know any better and if, he had made a similar comment about, say, Mexican food, I would say his demonstrated ignorance almost rises to the level of bigotry.

But I admire his conviction… or something like that.

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I think everyone should read/re read the Times piece in its entirety.

There is no way the Grimes is insulting Greeks or greek cuisine. He is definitely not bigoted.

I know exactly what he is trying to convey. The comment FG excerpted is a response to what Grimes feels was fawning of some critics over some of the Astoria restaurants.

I think Grimes could have said it better. I also believe that what Grimes is saying via the comment is that Greek food, while wonderful at a certain level of refinement does not reach the heights of refinement some other cuisins have attained. I am not sure I agree with him but I do not have the knowledge and experience to totally disagree.

By refinement I believe we are talking the equivalent of Haute cuisine.(its that damn French thing again). Using that paradigm, one could argue that Italian cuisine by its very nature does not achieve the level of Haute cuisine. Indeed ,many people would argue this (and do) -so what.

There's no bigotry at play--just a bunch of foodies intellectualizing about food!

To me Greek food at its best (as I have experienced it) is boldly flavored, warm, gregarious, very satisfying and damn good.

Refined?

Haute?

I'd rather eat it than debate its place in the pantheon of world cuisines.

(didn't the Greeks invent the pantheon?)--nuff said!

[Adam Balic]

Interestingly, this egullet thread has opinions that are similar to Grimes'.

Also, it would seem that Grimes' has no specific prejudice against Greek restuarants or even Greek restuarants in Astoria, based on this older review.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Adam Balic (log)

[SuzySushi]

Hmmm.... the latest issue of Nation's Restaurant News has an article entitled "Diners 'discover' Greek cuisine: Chefs dispel myths of greasy gyros with diverse, haute food." Among other things, the article notes that Acqua Pazza, an upscale restaurant in midtown Manhattan, will soon be made over as Athnos, an upscale Greek restaurant.

[fiftydollars]

I re-read the article and I still see that unqualified statement as a jab at Greek food as a whole.

Edited February 3, 2007 by fiftydollars (log)

[Adam Balic]

Clearly it is easy to project all sorts of meaning onto an isolated quote. If you read it as "Greek food at it's best, isn't regarded as highly as some other European cusines", is that such a bad comment or untrue?

This is a quote from a thread from a from a few years ago, does "Given that most gourmets would cite Italy as one of the top food destinations on Earth -- there are even many who prefer dining in Italy to dining in France -- why is it that Italy hardly seems relevant to the world of modern gastronomy?". Does this mean that fatguy is having a jab at Italian food? Is he saying it is irrelevant? I don't think so, and I still read the Grimes article in a similar way - although I admit that I don't know anything about Astoria or the district mentioned in the article, so maybe I don't make the 'Greek food in Astoria = Greek food' connection, if such a link exists obviously.

[eipi10]

I've had fantastic Greek food in the Tampa area, where there is a large Greek population. It's a shame there aren't more authentic Greek restaurants in the US.

Anyway, I think every single cuisine rises to great heights, because people everywhere want to eat tasty things. It may be that some cuisines just aren't very well represented. Just when I thought I'd tried virtually every cuisine, I was recently taken aback by the tastiness and distinctiveness of Surinamese food in Holland. I have yet to see a Surinamese restaurant anywhere in the US. It may also be that some societies, like Greece, aren't very wealthy and thus haven't developed haute cuisines that wow critics. It's amazing how good Ethiopian food is, for instance, considering our perceptions of Ethiopian impoverishment.

So arguendo I'm going to adopt a culinary relativist stance and say that no cuisine is inherently better than any other cuisine, but some cuisines have more exponents and have been developed more extensively. At the level of $10 an entree or less, I honestly don't think any cuisine is better than any other.

Edited February 14, 2007 by eipi10 (log)

[JohnL]

I've had fantastic Greek food in the Tampa area, where there is a large Greek population. It's a shame there aren't more authentic Greek restaurants in the US.

Anyway, I think every single cuisine rises to great heights, because people everywhere want to eat tasty things. It may be that some cuisines just aren't very well represented. Just when I thought I'd tried virtually every cuisine, I was recently taken aback by the tastiness and distinctiveness of Surinamese food in Holland. I have yet to see a Surinamese restaurant anywhere in the US. It may also be that some societies, like Greece, aren't very wealthy and thus haven't developed haute cuisines that wow critics. It's amazing how good Ethiopian food is, for instance, considering our perceptions of Ethiopian impoverishment.

So arguendo I'm going to adopt a culinary relativist stance and say that no cuisine is inherently better than any other cuisine, but some cuisines have more exponents and have been developed more extensively. At the level of $10 an entree or less, I honestly don't think any cuisine is better than any other.

←

You are on to something, I think.

This is really not about cuisine per se.

Yes pretty much all cuisines are "equal." However some cuisines have been elevated far above the average or the norm. For eg Spanish cuisine is no better or worse than Greek cuisine (actually there are many similarities--both are Mediterranean etc). However some enterprising individuals like Arzak and others have taken traditional Spanish cuisine to new heights of creativity and refinement.

I do not know if Greece has experienced a similar renaissance. If not maybe it will. The step up in quality and creativity here in New York City has been noticeable.

Again, I think this is about "haute cuisine" not cuisine in general.

[Adam Balic]

I don't quite agree with this. I personally fine something of interest in pretty much any cuisine that I have come across. But for various reasons some cuisines are very impoverished and some have great depth. I'm not sure that these can be compared as equals.

A pulp of pounded starch as a daily staple is a cusine/kitchen in many cases and this just doesn't compare to the what is availble in many other cultures/regions foods.

What criteria is used to rank them or compare them is a completely different topic.