Philadelphia Tasters' Club

[Diann]

Another thought from someone who wished he could have been there himself:

Obviously the point of doing a blind tasting is to find out what is best. I wonder how each of these would have fared in terms of simple "everyday" enjoyment without the direct comparison - even the "losers."

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I'm echoing a point already made here BUT:

the rastelli (I won't call it a di bruno's steak), ochs, and whole foods steaks were serious losers, in any context. the whole foods steak reminded me of what you would probably get if you went to chili's or applebee's or TGI friday's and ordered steak. the och's was unappetizingly pale pink (bland-looking) uncooked, and gristly when cooked. the rastelli was unpleasantly grainy and flavorless.

--

james: I know people were pretty split about the esposito's, but I personally enjoyed it. it wasn't straight-ahead beefy, but I thought it was meaty and had an awesome tangy funk to it. and I believe esposito's dry-aged is readily available, retail, correct? so maybe try that for your next piece of I-want-it-NOW steak.

--

thoughts about value: I think we figured out that the wolfe neck wholesales for about $12 a steak? under $10 a pound? clearly the winner. it was my third favorite steak of the night (#1 by far, lobel's, #2 esposito's) and i would like to try it again -- especially cooked with a ton of butter and thyme and garlic... mmm... tasty.

the esposito -- if it wholesaled mid-$20s I guess that means I'd buy it for maybe $40 a steak? at that point, my opinion of the deliciousness of the steak goes down. meanwhile, I just looked up a 16 oz. lobel's dry-aged bone-in ribeye. $30.98! downright reasonable!

[dagordon]

Just a quick mention since this obsession with clarity is bothering me.....

The meat from Dibruno's was from a supplier called Rastelli's in New Jersey.

SO.........Rastelli's Meats.

I remember clearly off the top of my head that is was $24.12, for some reason i remember math trivia (24/2=12).

Anyways it was about 18 oz.

Now factoring in PRICE........

Rastelli Steak from dibruno RETAILED at $24.12

Listen, I love Di Bruno's -- I love the people there, I love much of what they sell (the meat counter and the cheese counter are pretty clearly of exceptionally high quality). There's a lot of knowledge among the staff at both the stores.

But these qualifications "Rastelli's meats" or "Rastelli steak from dibruno" are not necessary... Lobel's isn't raising their own cattle; I don't know where they're purchasing their meat from, but it's still "Lobel's steak".

It's a valuable piece of information that Di Bruno's is getting their stuff from Rastelli in NJ. But Di Bruno's is selling the stuff, and they're making a profit off it. It reflects on them. It particularly reflects on them when they offer a ribeye as a NY Strip, and when they fail to properly trim it.

The disappointment w/ the Di Bruno's steak is the disappointment that you have with someone you know and respect; you know what they are capable of, and it's clear that they're not living up to their potential.

[Diann]

Based on who I see at the counters when I'm in Esposito's, however, I suspect that the overwhelming majority of Philadelphians aren't really thinking about spending even $20/lb on meat unless it's a very special occasion. "Steak for dinner" probably means the $4.99/lb Lancaster Brand strip, most likely USDA Select, that's on sale at the Acme.  Even though someone's buying those pricey new Center City condos, I'm still not sure that the potential customer pool for really high-end meat in the city is large enough for a store to start carrying it on a regular basis.  But who knows? Maybe if DiBruno's gets enough letters....

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I don't think this is a relevant argument. Di Bruno's, etc. are already selling meat at these prices; it's just not very good meat. Therefore, it is a matter of getting them to change their suppliers -- not asking them to introduce a product that isn't in the marketplace yet (the $20+ per pound steak).

[MarketStEl]

Based on who I see at the counters when I'm in Esposito's, however, I suspect that the overwhelming majority of Philadelphians aren't really thinking about spending even $20/lb on meat unless it's a very special occasion. "Steak for dinner" probably means the $4.99/lb Lancaster Brand strip, most likely USDA Select, that's on sale at the Acme.  Even though someone's buying those pricey new Center City condos, I'm still not sure that the potential customer pool for really high-end meat in the city is large enough for a store to start carrying it on a regular basis.  But who knows? Maybe if DiBruno's gets enough letters....

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I don't think this is a relevant argument. Di Bruno's, etc. are already selling meat at these prices; it's just not very good meat. Therefore, it is a matter of getting them to change their suppliers -- not asking them to introduce a product that isn't in the marketplace yet (the $20+ per pound steak).

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I based my earlier comments on these two observations:

--The tasters were unanimous that Lobel's dry-aged porterhouse was far and away the best steak they tasted;

--Lobel's dry-aged porterhouse is about half again as expensive as the best steaks available at retail locally.

I should not have suggested, as I did earlier, that there is no market for $20/lb steak in this city; you are right--clearly, there is, and you can get better-than-supermarket-quality strip steaks from Esposito's for $17/lb as well. I just don't see all that many people walking out of their 9th Street retail store with them on those Saturday afternoons that I've gone there.

It's not clear to me that you're going to (a) get truly outstanding steak at the $20/lb price point, though you will get very good beef, or (b) get enough people locally who will pay retail for knock-your-socks-off beef to make it worthwhile for any of the better butchers to carry it regularly.

I may be underestimating the local market, however, and there may be the chance that a Butcher Shop of Dreams effect -- "if you sell it, they will buy it" -- might come about.

[TarteTatin]

We buy all our meat from Fair Food in Reading Terminal, and Bob Pierson's Winter Harvest/Farm to City.

It's all locally grown, and the beef is all grass fed.

I remember Delmonico steaks at Fair Food are $12.50 a pound.

Dr. Elkins angusburger is the best tasting ground beef I've ever had, at something like $7.00 a pound.

They have other beef cuts, lots of lamb cuts including Jamison, lots of pork, chicken...

It all comes frozen.

But, I'll tell you, it's all got FLAVOR.

Oh, and the best bacon I've ever had, definitely.

You should try the Lamb Pepperoni from Winter Harvest. Incredible!

[cdh]

Now that you mention it, we do have some mighty fine local cattle raising going on in this part of the world. My local country grocer gets in some damn fine beef from local sources, and Hendricks Farms beef is awfully good too.

This tasting was of boutique beef... where in some instances you are paying for several layers of sharp-eyed brokers who spot what might be good and pass it along to other middlemen. The best value appeared to be going straight to the farm at Wolfe Neck... Might be fun to go beef hunting without the middlemen and go straight to the farmers. That would prove an interesting comparison with this tasting.

[Andrew Fenton]

The nice part of holding off on comments until the next afternoon is that other people have done the heavy lifting! So here are some random thoughts on our meatstravaganza:

I found it interesting that, for me, the steaks fell into broad categories of roughly equivalent quality.

- DiBruno's and WF were pretty equivalent in their badness. You could sort of tell by looking at them: the grain of the meat pulled apart during cooking (not enough fat?) and they had a sort of dry, sandy texture (not enough fat!) The WF steak could have been a chicken thigh, for all it tasted.

- I actually liked the Ochs steak better than most; it wasn't great, but it was inoffensive. I suspect that it, like the Wells Choice, got most of its flavor from the sear, not the meat.

- Then there was another group of roughly equivalent steaks: the Wolfe Neck, Wells Angus and Peter Luger. All of them were pretty good, but I think I liked the Wolfe Neck the best: it had a more complex flavor, with some hints of buttermilk and even fruitiness.

- Lobel's was off the charts, of course. I can't add much to others' descriptions of its buttery, smooth richness.

- Esposito's was the most interesting of the bunch. As others have said, it wasn't anywhere close to the others in flavor. You can't tell from the photo of the raw, but trimmed steak, but it had a rim of what I guess was mold, that had to be cut off before the steak could be ready for prime time.

On eating, it tasted like cheese, or mold, or something I couldn't quite identify for a moment. Then I realized: it tasted like... death. Not exactly as if somebody had sliced a chunk off of a zombie cow as it shambled by, mooing for braiiiins, but somehow close. Presumably, it's intentional-- the steak was fine and all, but it's a flavor that brings you really close to the controlled rotting that's at the core of the meat aging process.

And I'll be honest: I'm not a fan. V's comment was that it'd be a good steak to serve with a bordelaise sauce, or in a small amount, in a preparation where it'd pair with other flavors. That is probably right. But it's not a good steak to sear up and serve as we did last night. And it's definitely not a steak for amateurs, or to convert your vegetarian friends! It's meat for the serious omnivore, folks.

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The whole experiment was eye-opening; I now have a good baseline to compare steaks in the future, something I don't know that I had before. Which of them would I buy, if I had the chance? The Wolfe Neck, definitely. And the Wells Angus, if I could. As good as the Lobel's was, I can't imagine spending $100 on a steak. That's just not going to happen, at least in this lifetime.

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Oh, and I can't praise Vadouvan's Buddha fries enough! In and of themselves, they were great fries, but with the aioli, they were stupendous. At first, the ginger and soy flavors gave it a sort of Japanese restaurant salad dressing flavor, but as the hot fries warmed it up, it got more complex. Actually, I dipped some of the steak in it... chock full of decadent-y goodness!

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A steak tasting is good fun, and I recommend it to everyone. Even if the steaks aren't good (ours of course were), it's a bonanza for double entendres. You really can't help it, what with the standing around, staring at pieces of meat...

Thanks to dagordon for coming up with the idea! And as always, mad props to Mister V. Adouvan for the execution.

And now to my dinner... beans! And salad! And then... a trip to the gym!

Edited February 9, 2007 by Andrew Fenton (log)

[Vadouvan]

- Esposito's was the most interesting of the bunch. As others have said, it wasn't anywhere close to the others in flavor. You can't tell from the photo of the raw, but trimmed steak, but it had a rim of what I guess was mold, that had to be cut off before the steak could be ready for prime time.

Fenton............the steak that needed the "age" trimmed was the Rastelli steak from DBrothers.

Speaking of DB, we got to get hands on Picinini Brothers, Daniel Boulud's butcher of choice, see if it's cracked up to be.

The title of the next tasting.........

Foie Gratis-Foie Gracias-Foie Gratuitous.

Stay tuned.

[dagordon]

Yeah, you know, I didn't want to say anything about the fries, or the salad, out of fear of only further upsetting people who weren't there, but since everyone else has been talking about it...

Pretty much the best fries ever. And the salad was perfection.

[mrbigjas]

We buy all our meat from Fair Food in Reading Terminal, and Bob Pierson's Winter Harvest/Farm to City.

It's all locally grown, and the beef is all grass fed.

I remember Delmonico steaks at Fair Food are $12.50 a pound.

Dr. Elkins angusburger is the best tasting ground beef I've ever had, at something like $7.00 a pound.

They have other beef cuts, lots of lamb cuts including Jamison, lots of pork, chicken...

It all comes frozen.

But, I'll tell you, it's all got FLAVOR.

they're all cut like 3/4" thick, though. why so thin? i hate that.

Thanks to dagordon for coming up with the idea!

dammit! first i have to miss the very event i proposed, and now no props. a guy can't get a break around here...

haha i kid. i kid because i love.

[Andrew Fenton]

Fenton............the steak that needed the "age" trimmed was the Rastelli steak from DBrothers.

well slap my ass and call me Jennifer! I could have sworn... So the Esposito's flava was all internal, then...

The title of the next tasting.........

Foie Gratis-Foie Gracias-Foie Gratuitous.

Stay tuned.

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oh dear... and here I thought it was going to be "Cheesequake."

You know, I heard something? about how foie gras is, like mean? to ducks? or something?

Thanks to dagordon for coming up with the idea!

dammit! first i have to miss the very event i proposed, and now no props. a guy can't get a break around here...

haha i kid. i kid because i love.

And I give no credit because I love!

Well, actually it's because I have the attention span of a hummingbird on meth... well, either way...

[rlibkind]

I am truly impressed and humbled by the sacrifices you all made for the advancement of science!

[percyn]

Sorry, for the delay in this post..

My notes were in the same ballpark as the others with some minor differences. It is interesting that everyone picked the clear winner - Lobels...but as it has been pointed out, at $95/steak (OK, it was a big porterhouse) + shipping, it is not a practical everyday steak or impluse buy.

A few things to keep in about the tasting - taster's opinions were based on a relatively small sample from a single steak from each purveyor. A purist scientist would opt for multiple steak from each purveyor...but if the single sample method works for wine tastings...why not beef

Writing tasting notes for beef can be very challenging. How does one describe a flavor profile which has a single dimension (with the exception of the Esposito)? I wish there was a "beefiness scale".

Since we kept the preparation very simple and did not serve any accompanying sauce or wine, we can only hypothesize (some guesses more educated than others) what influence these accompaniments would have had on the flavor profile.

Dibrunos dry aged rib eye: Flavor - Mild beef flavor and I found the juices to be a bit watery. Texture - a bit gritty.

Wells Angus: Flavor - medium beef profile Texture - smoother than average

Wells dry aged choice: Flavor - mild beef profile Texture - tough & gritty (could have been the piece I got)

Esposito 21d dry age strip: Flavor - Very beefy with a finish which has been much discussed - hints of Parmesan rind and touch of hay come to mind Texture - nice and silky. Indeed, I would not opt for a 16oz servicing but with the right sauce or wine...who knows? It would be a great ingredient for an amuse where you need a small bite to pack a flavor punch. My #3 choice provided the portion was small.

Harry Ochs dry aged porterhouse: Flavor - Could be the piece I had on my plate, but I found this to be fatty Texture - Did not like the texture and mouth feel either

Whole Foods dry aged strip: Flavor - Mild and lack-luster Texture - Worse texture of all steaks...I would have probably sent this back if I got it in a restaurant ...which I don't do too often...need I say more?

Wolfe neck ribeye: Flavor - Above average beefiness Texture - Smooth but not too silky. Overall, a very good steak and my #2 choice

Peter Luger dry aged porterhouse: Flavor - Not as strong and I would have liked. There seemed to be a more than expected difference in taste between the crust and rare parts. Texture - Soft, but limpy

Lobels 6 wk dry aged porterhouse: Flavor - Huge, intense flavor and would immediately tell that it was properly aged, though at this point, I am not sure my palate could tell it was aged for 6 wks vs say 4 wks. Texture - Buttery but I did not find this as rich as some claim. I could easily eat a 12oz portion. A clear winner here and my #1 choice.

So what would have made this tasting even better, albeit less scientific? Some necesito mas papas fritas and some wine with the steaks.

Special thanks to Vadouvan and David (and Townsend) for their efforts which made this a great tasting.

If a dog were around, it would have been one happy puppy...

Now on to the Foie...

Edited February 11, 2007 by percyn (log)

[Tim Dolan]

V, back to the cooking method for a second. You mentioned heat control. I'm assuming the steaks were cooked over medium-high heat, or was it even more controlled than that? And by that I mean I noticed that you used a heat thermometer for the oil tasting, did you also use that to monitor the heat of the pan? Also, how long were the steaks cooked on each side?

Well, actually it's because I have the attention span of a hummingbird on meth...  well, either way...

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I laughed my ass off for a solid minute and a half when I read that. Warrants mentioning.

edited for clarity

Edited February 10, 2007 by Tim Dolan (log)

[Vadouvan]

Tim words such as "medium" heat become meaningless because of BTU variations is cooking Hobs.

That being said, the temp is below smoking point and you get a gentle "not Violent" sizzle that allows you to cook it without turning it for 10 to 15 minutes....AND not creating any burnt surface.

Before I delve way too technical, are you familiar with the concepts of Carbonization and Maillard reactions ?

Here lies the beauty of induction stoves my friend, you could basically say turn the stove to number 7 for at least 5 minutes with the pan on and it will be consistent everytime.

Regarding the thermometer, Yes and No.

No i dont use it because I can feel the heat after lots of experience cooking meat.

However, if you wanted to quantify the correct temp in which you should put the steak in the pan, you could narrow it down within 2 tries with the surface infra-red non contact thermometer.

But then you would have to buy one too, they are not cheap but for me indispensable, just a better faster cleaner way of doing things.

I use it mostly for sugar work and monitoring cooling temps.

Here is one.....

Click..

http://www.jbprince.com/index.asp?PageActi...ROD&ProdID=2182

Ultimately, you need to cook the old school way first, judgement of heat is critical to being a competent cook.....

Edited February 10, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[shacke]

I got my infrared thermometer on ebay. I used it to measure floor temps in my brick oven and most of them read celsius - at least when I was shopping for mine.

[jwjon1]

Excellent thought provoking posts in this thread! I love it! Thanks for taking the time to envision and organize this, Vadouvan--I'm throughly enjoying it. I'm particularly intrigued with the notion that the consumers on this board stand a chance at turning the tide on products available to us at retail. In the very least, my experience with DiBruno's convinces me that they would be willing to listen to our requests. My personal next step is to comprise a letter to them regarding meat purveyors, and I'm sure I won't be the only voice doing so!

I concur with mrbigjas's proposal to split this thread into more manageable pieces according to the event.

[Vadouvan]

Preliminary Foie Discusssions.

Here are the choices.

1. Hudson Valley USA Duck

2. Rougie French Duck

3. Rougie French Goose

4. Palmex Quebec Duck

5. Sonoma Duck

6. La Belle Farms Duck

Gordon, any thoughts on how this should be structured ?

All grade A lobes for sure.

[docsconz]

Preliminary Foie Discusssions.

Here are the choices.

1. Hudson Valley USA Duck

2. Rougie French Duck

3. Rougie French Goose

4. Palmex Quebec Duck

5. Sonoma Duck

6. La Belle Farms Duck

Gordon, any thoughts on how this should be structured ?

All grade A lobes for sure.

←

I think that for conditions to be ideal the tasting should be conducted closer to the source. Anywhere requiring air transport is clearly impractical. Given that I am located between the Hudson Valley and Quebec, that would probably be as close as any place practical. In the interest of science I would offer my humble abode.

[johnder]

I second that! I second that!

[Vadouvan]

Nice try.....

Distance wont matter, we are having them shipped like donor organs Doc.....

[I_call_the_duck]

I promised my doctor that I'd lay off the foie after I returned from Paris. That was last May. So I still indulge in foie in moderation, but even thinking about participating in an experiment such as this will be suicide. I'll live vicariously through you guys, and look forward to the results.

[dagordon]

Oh. Baby.

I think I remember you saying that, as far as preparation, you wanted to sear them? It might be interesting to do the lobes in each one differently: sear one, torchon the other?

[townsend]

Oh. Baby.

I think I remember you saying that, as far as preparation, you wanted to sear them? It might be interesting to do the lobes in each one differently: sear one, torchon the other?

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From what I understand, different feeds (corn vs. soy) create different fat consistency. In turn, they are better for different uses; soy for firmer, searing foie and corn for softer, torchon-style foie. Color is different, too. I would try to confirm the feed content, just to add that to the mix.

[dagordon]

Oh. Baby.

I think I remember you saying that, as far as preparation, you wanted to sear them? It might be interesting to do the lobes in each one differently: sear one, torchon the other?

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From what I understand, different feeds (corn vs. soy) create different fat consistency. In turn, they are better for different uses; soy for firmer, searing foie and corn for softer, torchon-style foie. Color is different, too. I would try to confirm the feed content, just to add that to the mix.

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Interesting, well we could test this hypothesis by doing each both ways -- unless it's just obvious that say, searing a corn-fed foie would completely ruin it. (But I'd find that hard to believe!) But we should definitely find out feed, and as much else as we can find out about how they were raised.

Edited February 13, 2007 by dagordon (log)