Riveted handles on cookware

[budrichard]

"There's nothing lightweight about Demeyere or Sitram cookware. I'd venture to say that, pan for pan, if All-Clad is heavier, the difference is probably roughly equal to the weight of . . . the rivets (Falk, using all that copper, isn't eligible for this contest). I have a 9-quart Sitram sauce pot with, yes, a welded handle. It would have been nice had they included a helper handle, but they didn't, and if the weld breaks, they'll replace the pot for as long as I'm alive.

"Before I took over the kitchen, we had a motley collection of pots and pans, mostly Calphalon. The Calphalon pots and pans being constructed of Al had all warped bottoms from heat. The pots were sturdy enough but cleaning was a chore. I remembered the cookware my mother had was all stainless steel. Then came the era of aluminum and non-stick coatings. I decided to find something that would give the best performance. After a review of the literature and Internet search and I ordered a fry pan from Falk. Now here was a pan, solid 2.5mm copper with SS interior, no retinning, and a brushed finish that didn't require polishing. I was skeptical about cleaning at first but quickly found that this pan cleaned easier than any Aluminum non-stick pan or pot we had. What gives? A little thought led to the reason. In order to make a cheaper product, the manufactures had resorted to aluminum but unless you had some sort of anodizing or non-stick treatment, the pan would be useless. The consumer had been sold crap big time. Many including All Clad advertized a copper bottom and then later a 'Copper Core'. An email to All Clad asking for the thickness of the copper core, resulted in my being told that this was propietary information. BALONEY!

I cut a deal with Mike Harp for a discount for a LARGE $$ order (that resulted in his present pricing structure) and have been absolutely satisfied ever since. Every other type of pot and pan we had went out the door! My daughter who is slight of build likes All Clad for the weight. I purchased her a Copper Core fry pan. A semi quantatative test of an All Clad versas a Falk (same size fry) with the same volume of water on the same burner yielded about a 25% faster boil for the Falk. Not hard to anticipate. Some where i have the weight differential but am just too lazy to look it up. With the modern fabrication methods available, one can sandwich in a layer of copper with a cheaper layer of Aluminum and then a SS outer and inner if desired. This allows a cheaper pan which is also lighter. I seriously doubt that the use of copper in these pans makes any difference at all over all aluminum core construction. It's just there for advertizing. The pan may certainly be suitable for restaurant use, especially since restaurants want both long lasting and cheaper pans but and this is the big BUT, the best cookware is still copper which is heavy and requires rivits.

So if discussion of Falk is out, then i will bow out of this and all future discussions about pots and pans and leave the discussions about cheaper pots and pans to you folks! -Dick

Edited January 28, 2007 by budrichard (log)

[paulraphael]

Hey, I love heavy copper. I don't think it makes sense for every pan, though.

I use copper for saucepans and for bigger saute pans. for a small (10") poelle, like what I use sauteing and tassing smaller portions, I find the copper offerings from Falk and Mauviel and bourgeat to be unsuitable. Too heavy, badly shaped, and badly balanced to toss food in. I find aluminum to work great in this size. i used anodized aluminum (calphalon) for years ... it cooked beautifully and was well shaped and balanced, but it got beaten to hell, it warped, and i got sick of trying to figure out if the fond was burned or not on the dark surface. Now I use an alclad s.s. pan in this size. As obnoxious as the company can seem, the pan is excellent both on the stove and on the oven. Light, fast and responsive, even, easy to clean. And i paid just under $100 on amazon ... pretty competetive with Sitram, Demeyere, etc..

In many other sizes I think you'll find choices that make more sense than copper. There's little need for a copper dutch oven or stockpot. Something we should be thankful for.

One day I would like a copper rondeau, though ... something in the 5 or 6 quart size. That would be a nice pan.

Not sure what this has to do with the original topic ... all these pans have riveted handles. They inspire a certain amount of confidence (even if a spot weld is bombproof, you have no way of knowing for sure), and the few seconds of extra effort to clean them has never seemed like a big deal. I have noticed that my calphalon pieces use aluminum rivets, and some of the older ones have corroded on the inside. This seems like an esthetic annoyance more than a structural one.

[brucedelta]

After converting to a Induction cooktop in 2005, I had to replace much of my cookwear and ended up selecting Demeyere Sirocco and Le Cruset. Part of the reason was that I hated the riveted handles on my old cookwear. Most people have said they are easy to clean if you use such and such. Well the need to clean at all is something that always bothered me. The 12" Demeyere pans are no lightweight units, but the handle feel and styling are excellent. From what I can see I expect these welds to hang on longer than I will. My Demeyere cookwear is less than 2 years old, but I am very happy with the selection.

I think All-clad has that 3 rivet style as their trademark look and I doubt it has anything to do with strength these days. I suspect that at some point rivets were truley a sign of strength, but with modern materials and techiques I have to believe a weld can be of equal or greater strength. As with many things I suspect that both techniques can be performed at lower cost and strength by manufacturers looking to target a lowr price point.

All in all, I suspect that either choice can be fine cookwear and it is a matter of personal preference as to what style you like. Pots and pans are something that a cook handles all the time, so I believe that comfort, look, feel, and style should be major factors in the decision you make.

[Fat Guy]

A further thought on this topic: rivets are particularly silly on non-stick cookware. Or, rather, it's kind of bizarre that non-stick cookware made with rivets is always (as far as I know) made with rivets that don't have a non-stick coating on them. The problem this presents is that you can't really use any of your regular rivet-cleaning tricks on the interior of a non-stick pan. So you can't use a metal scouring pad, you can't use Barkeeper's Friend . . . you're just stuck scrubbing the rivets fruitlessly with a Scotch-Brite.

[slkinsey]

Right? It's definitely stupid to have uncoated rivets on interior PTFE-coated cookware. How hard can it be to spray on the coatings after the handle is riveted on. I have a nine-inch frypan I picked up for omelets at Bed Bath & Beyond a while ago. The body is made of extra-thick aluminum and I think the brand is called Invitations. It cost twelve bucks, and the rivets are fully PTFE-coated.

[Ted Fairhead]

Welds, on the other hand, will eventually break with heat and flex from stress-which is why you generally don't see structures that will have to flex, such as roadways, built with welds.

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But what about railroads and subways? They just about all use welded tracks nowadays.

[budrichard]

Welds, on the other hand, will eventually break with heat and flex from stress-which is why you generally don't see structures that will have to flex, such as roadways, built with welds.

←

But what about railroads and subways? They just about all use welded tracks nowadays.

←

Since I used to manage Nuclear QC/QA departments and did graduate studies in Metalurgy, I did a quick Goggle on "welding railroad track". http://www.railtechboutet.com/products.htm

It appeasr that this firm uses what is known as thermite welding. Thermite welding uses a pyrotechnic heat producing chemical reaction with filler material to make the weld at very high temperatures, not all like spot welding or however handles are welded to pots/pans.

We used the process to weld rebar which is the reinforcing structure in some poured concrete applications. Thermite welding is very effective.

So in summary, there are many different processes that are grouped under the generic term 'welding' but they can differ greatly in how they are accomplsihed.-Dick

[dougal]

Perhaps more importantly, the material of one section of rail is (hopefully) identical to the material of its neighbour.

However, the design requirements for a pan handle and ban 'bowl' are somewhat different - and hence they often use different materials to obtain those properties.

And joining dissimilar materials is a different game.

Sometimes, the handle may be made integrally with the bowl, of the same material, formed at the same time. I have a cast Le Creuset omelette pan like that. (Excellent for a Tarte Tatin, BTW.) They actually sell an insulated handle glove to save burns when used on the stovetop...

And sometimes (OK usually) the properties of the materials chosen (and their treatments) will severely restrict the options for joining or fastening.

All design is a compromise!

The market allows different designs, and design philosophies, to compete. Thank heavens!

The tricky part of "non-stick" coating is of course getting the 'non-stick' to actually stick to the pan!

You aren't going to be doing any metal melting (welding) after coating it, and persuading the coating to simultaneously adhere to different materials (rivet and pan) is also usually better not attempted. I think it must be much more convenient (ie massively more productive, so cheaper) for the manufacturer to finish coating the pan before attaching the handle.

However the market allows you to seek out products who's performance, appearance and price have been balanced (ie compromised) to appeal to your own ideas. Although, yes, the most popular compromises will tend to become the most available - that's the way markets work.

[Peter the eater]

Our nearby pots & pans factory is Paderno on Prince Edward Island. They don't seem to use rivets - everything has a spot weld, even on their top-of-the line pro set which they say is aboard Air Force One.

I am pro-rivet. They are simply more robust mechanically and visually.

I appreciate the strong and honest expression of a riveted metal-to-metal connection (wow, spot the architect). I doubt any high-end pots with welds are going to fall apart the way I use them, and I agree riveted measuring cups is a little unnecessary given the loads they will likely encounter. Cleaning a riveted pot is just not a big deal for me. So I say rivets rule!

[budrichard]

I need riveted measuring cups as I have spot welded cups that the handles have fallen off.

I am NOT a believer in spot welding.-Dick

[fauxtarga]

Not to resurrect a totally dead topic, but I couldn't find anything more recent discussing the Demeyere weld issue. This evening the welds in my Demeyere 24cm Proline frying pan broke while I was washing it in the sink. When I purchased the piece, the welds did not appear to be as strong as the welds on my other Demeyere equipment, and were at a slightly different angle to the pan. Not being a pan engineer I assumed this was by design and that the welds would hold. Unfortunately, now that the pan is broken, I don't have any pictures of what it used to look like.

I just wanted to give others a heads up regarding this issue as it could have been a problem if it had broken while in-use. I have had the pan for about a year.

This is just one data point, and an outlier it seems, but for safety reasons I'll now look twice at the welds in all new cookware I buy. I use welded Sitram and Demeyere almost exclusively and this is the first time I've had this problem.

[andiesenji]

From the photo, it looks like the weld was defective.

[fauxtarga]

Thanks - I 'll take this as a sign of poor QC rather than a deficiency of welded pans.

[JAZ]

I worked in cookware stores for more than 10 years (we sold a lot of Demeyere) and in that whole time we only had one pan and one lid returned because of handles breaking off like that. In fact, I think those were the only two pieces of Demeyere that were ever returned for any reason -- a better record than any other manufacturer.

[Edward J]

With about half of the riveted handles on commercial cookware coming off or fatigueing, I am not impressed with rivets.

Now, to be fair, many of the loose rivets came from cheaper pans and pots, and all of them were aluminum. On the other hand of all of the spot-welded handles I've seen in the commercial kitchens, only a few have come off.

I think the devil is in the details, A rivet is not just a rivet. For some reason N.A. cookware mnfcts are LOATHE to weld on handles. O.K. fair enough, but the rivets they invariably use are soft aluminum, and these almost always fatigue and wear loose over time. I'm not a metallurgist, but isn't there a harder type of aluminum to use for rivets so they don't fatigue so quickly?

Spot welding is not just spot welding. On the cheaper pots that do break, the junction where the handle meets the pot is very small, and is therefore subject to a lot of stress, so, with time, they break. On most commercial s/s cookware, the handle is formed with a larger plate and this is spot welded on to the pot with a series of six or eight spot welds. The stress is spread out over a larger area.

So I guess the old saying of "buy cheap, get cheap" holds true

m

[slkinsey]

With about half of the riveted handles on commercial cookware coming off or fatigueing, I am not impressed with rivets.

Now, to be fair, many of the loose rivets came from cheaper pans and pots, and all of them were aluminum. On the other hand of all of the spot-welded handles I've seen in the commercial kitchens, only a few have come off.

I think the devil is in the details, A rivet is not just a rivet. For some reason N.A. cookware mnfcts are LOATHE to weld on handles. O.K. fair enough, but the rivets they invariably use are soft aluminum, and these almost always fatigue and wear loose over time. I'm not a metallurgist, but isn't there a harder type of aluminum to use for rivets so they don't fatigue so quickly?

I'm curious... are you sure it is the rivets that are soft aluminum and wear loose? Or couldn't it be the aluminum body of the cookware that is stretching over time around the holes and making them larger?

I'm just curious about this because I've got a number of aluminum cookware pieces with riveted handles, and none of the rivets appear to be aluminum. I've also never heard of rivets wearing out on riveted stainless steel or heavy copper cookware, which makes me wonder whether it's really the rivets that are causing this problem. If you put a lot of repeated stress on a hole in a piece of aluminum metal, eventually that hole is going to deform.

[paulraphael]

My calphalon pans have aluminum rivets. They're all old; not sure if the company still does this. All my others have stainless rivets.

I've seen loose handles on riveted pans, always at restaurants, always on unclad commercial aluminum. I suspect it's the holes in the aluminum wearing, as Slkinsey says, but I'm not sure. The high heat and abuse probably make this more likely in a restaurant setting. At least with a worn out riveted handel the handle doesn't actually fall off and dump hot food and grease all over you.

[Edward J]

I'm curious... are you sure it is the rivets that are soft aluminum and wear loose? Or couldn't it be the aluminum body of the cookware that is stretching over time around the holes and making them larger?

I'm just curious about this because I've got a number of aluminum cookware pieces with riveted handles, and none of the rivets appear to be aluminum. I've also never heard of rivets wearing out on riveted stainless steel or heavy copper cookware, which makes me wonder whether it's really the rivets that are causing this problem. If you put a lot of repeated stress on a hole in a piece of aluminum metal, eventually that hole is going to deform.

I really don't know if the holes get larger or the rivets "stretch" and work themselves loose, all I know is I've got a saute pan with a loosey-goosey handle that dribbles hot liquids/oil all over the place.

When this happens, for over 25 years now, I take the pan "out back, and pound it" peening the rivets flat again over a cement curb or cement fillled post. And after a few months of shaking and sauteing, they work themselves loose all over again...

Virtually every N.American restaurant has a stack of cheap aluminum saute pans, and these all have aluminum rivets, most of them have 4 and 5 qt aluminum pots as well with riveted handles--and they fail as well. Some of the higher grade "wearever" heavy guage aluminum braising pots and stock pots have aluminum rivets as well, but these seem to hold up very nicely, even after 20 -odd years of daily abuse.

I too, have solid copper sugar pots that are riveted and are holding up very nicely--again after 20 -odd years of abuse, but it's very rare that I see a riveted s/s pot in a commerical setting. Virtually every one I've ever used has been spot welded. My "collection" of cookware at home is almnost all commercial s/s cookware, with the odd Ikea pot. No failures yet.

[slkinsey]

So, this is more a feature of the cheap materials used in the pan than riveting per se? Is it possible (or, more to the point, reasonably easy and cheap) to weld a handle onto a raw aluminum pan? Are there any raw aluminum pans with spot welded handles?

[andiesenji]

I have several copper pots, pans, skillets and etc., all have riveted handles.

From time to time over the years I have had one or more rivets loosen a bit. My solution has been to take them to an auto body shop where they do restorations on old cars. (Lots of these in So.Cal.) They have tools for setting rivets and so far they have done a great job for me and usually charge me $20 per pan and they haven't damaged the copper.

I don't bother to get the cheaper pans fixed, just toss them.

[Edward J]

So, this is more a feature of the cheap materials used in the pan than riveting per se? Is it possible (or, more to the point, reasonably easy and cheap) to weld a handle onto a raw aluminum pan? Are there any raw aluminum pans with spot welded handles?

I think that's the case.

Welding aluminum is commonly done on many, many other items (boats, bicycle, baker's tray trolleys, etc, etc.) I don't know if this requires special equipment, or is more costly than "regular" welding.

That said, to date, I have never seen an aluminum pot/pan with welded handles--in any price range

[MaxH]

Seems like fauxtarga did just get some defective welds.

But with due respect for anecdotal experiences, welding and especially spot welding are widely industrially seen as cheapie manufacturing techniques with metal goods like these. That's with welds between very similar metals (like handles spot-welded to utensils of sheet steel -- I have a few). In WW2 some US naval ship production switched from riveting to welding to save time and money, and the welded ships proved structurally unreliable. It's trickier still with dissimilar metals, and the aluminum alloys are a world unto themselves. They can be welded but the techniques are special, and aluminum to other metals has still further complications including electrochemical effects. (Recall that "dry-cell" batteries are basically dissimilar metals connected by a conductive liquid sealed inside, and that US flirted with casual aluminum house wiring until interactions in, particularly, aluminum-copper junctions brought reliability and fire problems.)

[paulraphael]

Welding aluminum is commonly done on many, many other items (boats, bicycle, baker's tray trolleys, etc, etc.) I don't know if this requires special equipment, or is more costly than "regular" welding.

That said, to date, I have never seen an aluminum pot/pan with welded handles--in any price range

The issue is that aluminum has to be welded to aluminum, and aluminum handles are a lousy idea on most pans. Too conductive.

I have a big commercial stockpot with aluminum loop handles. In this case they work fine. They're attached with big spot welds.

[slkinsey]

Too conductive and, for the "long handle" family of pans, too soft to bear up under the stress without bending.

That's pretty much what I figured... if you're putting a steel handle on an aluminum pan or an iron handle on a copper pan, it's rivets or nothing.

This (in addition to the aesthetic considerations) explains why All-Clad rivets handles even on their fully clad cookware: they're not going to change production methods over from riveting to welding for only two of their lines.

Edited August 4, 2010 by slkinsey (log)

[Edward J]

Just came back from Russell Food eqpt. a large CDN restaurant eqpt. supplier to pick up a few things and wandered out to look at some of the commercial cookware.

1) The aluminum roasting pans have spot welded plates that support a loose (free swinging) aluminum handle. The straps on the bottom and top pieces of the roasting pan are aluminum and are also welded on. These are fairly thin guage aluminum, and considering that they can accept a baron of beef or two banquet turkeys, not MY first choice for a roasting pan....

2)The braziers (marmite base) and marmite hauts are a heavy guage non-treated aluminum with loop aluminum handles. These are riveted on with aluminum rivets. All lids are at extra cost, with a strap of aluminum for a "handle" riveted on.

3) Saute pans: The large aluminum, teflon coated (or some new kind of non-stick coating) over $50.00, have steel handles with what appears to be s/s rivets. The cheaper, non treated aluminum 6-9" saute pans have steel handles with aluminum rivets. Blue rubber "handle covers" are at an extra cost.

The onus (at Russell anyway) seems to be on s/s cookware for any liquids, and aluminum or carbon steel for sauteing. On every s/s piece of cookware, the handles are spot welded on. This includes the "monster" 30 and 40 qt stock pots. When you think about it, the handles take alot of abuse, as 1 liter of water = 1 kg or 1 qt = 2.? lbs, (aprox 20-30 kgs or over 50 lbs if the pot is 3/4 full) which means that those handles take alot of stress when jerking the pot around the stove, or into the sink to cool down.