What are Sidnes?

[jackal10]

A geneologist friend writes, and I am also baffled:

I wonder if any of you could help to solve a culinary mystery that has been baffling interpretation for a few years. Although I've asked quite a few people nationwide, and perused Milward's glossary it's always been in vain.

From the will of Roger Copestake of Bradenbrinke, Derbyshire dated 1605 :

"Alsoe I geve to my sone Richarde ottes to make his sidnes at lent & the sidnes beinge made the reste of the vestrie to be devided betwixte my sone Richarde & my towe daughters Jhone & Jane ... "

I'm told that 'vestrie' is some kind of colloquialism for a store of a variety of grains [which are not mixed up together like dredge corn,] and that 'ottes' is oats.

My family comes from north Staffordshire and hence I've grown up being completely fluent in 'pottery talk' which seems to resemble the Olde English tongue. (My father always talked in 'thees' and 'thou's', which made Shakespeare so easy to follow.)

So I particularly enjoyed seeing' two' written as 'towe' and in another part' towels' for' tools' , phonetically perfect!

The mystery surrounds that meaning of 'sidnes'. What was/is it?

It sounds as if it is some kind of food specialty associated with Lent, such as simmnel cake but that is a rich plum cake so it's unlikely to have oats in it. I have had my transcription checked ndependently and it is correct.

It would be fun to try to make it for myself.

I wonder if you could shed any light on this for me please?

JL: Sidnes might be sidney or sydney. Lent being meatless it may be some kind of oat pudding, but I can find no reference in Hartley or any of the usual references.

Edited January 21, 2007 by jackal10 (log)

[scott123]

I'm not sure how much this helps, but I can pull up tens of links that use the term 'otes' when referring to oats, but not one that uses 'ottes.' Here's just a few:

From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Etymology: Middle English ote, from Old English Ate

From a 17th century English will

The seede of 27 acres of Otes, L5 13s. 4d. Barley Seede L12 19s. Twenty acres of Otes sowen,

And, from a 16th century recipe for ale

Having therefore groond eight bushels of good malt upon our querne, where the toll is saved, she addeth unto it half a bushel of wheat meale, and so much of otes small groond...

As far as sidnes goes... I'm baffled as well. These pages might help:

Medieval and Renaissance Food Homepage

Links on Medieval Lent

Even if the pages themselves don't reference the term, your friend might email some of the authors.

Edited January 21, 2007 by scott123 (log)

[Adam Balic]

The is a chance that they are what was called in Scotland "sids", these are the inner husk and germ left over from milling oatmeal (after it was sieved). In Scotlaand these were soaked in water for a week or so to encourage fermentation, the liquid was then removed (the "swats"), the loose sediment at the bottom was then pressed through a cloth to produce "sowans". Sowans are the important product, the formed a part of the daily diet of rural labourers and they formed a festival dish in some regions (although in Scotland this occurs around Christmas).

So if there is a linquistic link between sids and sidnes, it could indicate that the latter was a specific product of milling, rather then a baked product. Certainly, the idea of a coarse grade of oatmeal fits into the theme of lenten foods.

[Pontormo]

Jack: I know close to nothing about 17th-C England and presume your friend has seen plenty of archival documents, but I wonder how the word "vestrie" became a term denoting a mixture of different types of grains.

Is this because of the phenomenon addressed in The Stripping of Altars, a study of the way Protestants in England destroyed signs of the "old" Christian religion to bring in the new, and the vestries used to store the liturgical garments of the old religion were turned over to secular use and they became granaries?

Again, I plead ignorance, but I also wonder why you're having so much trouble with the word "sidnes". Could this be an abbreviation--or misspelling if Adam's logical explanation doesn't apply to your case?

In Italy, at least, the 17th-century is a time when ecclesiastical and civic documents get very, very sloppy. Hand-writing is very difficult to read and lots and lots of words are abbreviated or transcribed in haste and in error. That's why so many professional archivists manage to get gigs when less experienced people try to decipher them. I doubt the Anglo-Saxon word "sidnes" (wide) has anything to do with your word, but you might find someone used to reading this kind of thing in historical studies to guide you.

As for the word "ottes" a quick google confirmed the fact that there were fields of ottes surrounding early English villages and they made their appearance in wills (Yates). Sounds silly, but another association of mine is an old song that Peter, Paul and Mary used to sing about going around asking for soul cakes. These are in exchange for prayers to be said for the dead around All Soul's Day, but might there be another culinary tradiition connected to oatcakes for penance at Lent? There are all sorts of Easter breads and cakes, though the one early tradition I know about Lent concerns alms to pay for huge Lentan candles at church since wax was expensive.

Edited January 22, 2007 by Pontormo (log)

[insomniac]

I am sure when the old foodie comes online she will have an idea of the answer, or at least a good idea of how to forage for an answer as she is a history of food expert

[The Old Foodie]

The is a chance that they are what was called in Scotland "sids", these are the inner husk and germ left over from milling oatmeal (after it was sieved). In Scotlaand these were soaked in water for a week or so to encourage fermentation, the liquid was then removed (the "swats"), the loose sediment at the bottom was then pressed through a cloth to produce "sowans". Sowans are the important product, the formed a part of the daily diet of rural labourers and they formed a festival dish in some regions (although in Scotland this occurs around Christmas).

So if there is a linquistic link between sids and sidnes, it could indicate that the latter was a specific product of milling, rather then a baked product. Certainly, the idea of a coarse grade of oatmeal fits into the theme of lenten foods.

←

I agree with Adam on this. "sid" is (OED) "An inner husk of grain detached from the kernel in grinding", and the Midlands dialect adjective soddow or sidden means soft (mushy) as in cooked peas or grain. A soft porridgy non-meat dish of oats (or peas) would be appropriate for lent.

I think "Vestrie" is the same as "Vestry" which has a non-church meaning of a small storeroom (also called a "wardrobe")

No more time to explore - running late for the daily grind.

Thanks to Pontormo for alerting me to this thread - I havent been active online for a week or so.

I will be very interested in other ideas/opinions.

Janet