“In France, ‘Bon appétit’ is not proper” bathrooms

[Ptipois]

(...)

French people (some types of French people) take pride in their stuffy old rules.

There may be openness, but there's also a lot of closedness.

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Sharon, what you are saying is true, there is closedness, etc., but it does refer to a small minority of French people and I do insist on that. Not the average situation, and not the type of persons that visitors to France are likely to be confronted to in most cases.

I haven't been confronted to anything like you describe in many years and I do not live in a cave. So maybe I am not educated enough to know better, but frankly I doubt it. This closedness you describe does exist, but it is an extreme situation, which is why I think it should not be given too much importance, for it could be misleading for non-French people.

About the other parts of your post, I believe I have already answered them extensively upthread.

A Latin-American friend of mine once got resoundingly criticized by a hostess for cutting a leaf of salad.

Thanks for this illuminating example. Without question, this hostess was, by French (and, I believe, universal) standards, extremely rude, and, as I imagine, not very smart. A proper education implies that you never point out to other people — especially to foreigners — their failure to know/follow etiquette. Again, it's the ideal of openness that is greater than the ideal of conformity, and even then the ideal of conformity should not apply since there is, on top of it, the ideal of hospitality. Which comes long before the salad.

A hostess is never supposed to criticize her guests in the first place. This woman was not good-mannered.

The existence of people who believe they embody the best of French manners while they actually overlook the most basic ones (surely making a foreigner feel comfortable is more important than the way they eat salad) is a vast subject, but it is so foreign to the true French sense of civility that I haven't even brought it up so far.

Edited June 3, 2007 by Ptipois (log)

[Daniel Rogov]

With apologies for leaving political correctness and politesse behind but facing absolute realities, much of what is written in that article and much of what has been said on this thread (which I have just discovered) is pure and unadulterated nonsense.

Every culture, every sub-culture, every ethnic group and every nation has its own set of manners and mannerisms and judigng those because they are "different" than our own is a form of gross chauvinism.

With specific regard to the use of "the facilities", no-one will ever look askance on the person (man or woman) who stands up, puts his/her napkin on the seat and simply says "excuse me" as they make their way to the toilet, the telephone or even the cloak-room. With equal regard filling one's own wine glass, regardless of sex or gender, the rule in fine restaurants is generally that you ask the person to your left to do that honor for you and in not-so-fine restaurants to "do it yourself"

With regard to French as opposed to American manners the odd thing is that there are not that many differences - at least according to James Beard (American) and Robert Courtine (French). May I respectifully refer to my own little article at http://www.stratsplace.com/rogov/good_manners.html

Edited to replace the last word - "bullshit" i- n the first sentence to "nonsense". Ah well......

Edited September 30, 2007 by Daniel Rogov (log)

[Abra]

Lately I've been told "bonne continuation" after a second or third course is presented, which I find to be kind of an industrialized form of politesse. Like being on a train after a stop. Non?

Edited September 30, 2007 by Abra (log)

[Ptipois]

With apologies for leaving political correctness and politesse behind but facing absolute realities, much of what is written in that article and much of what has been said on this thread (which I have just discovered) is pure and unadulterated nonsense.

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Ah, Daniel, many thanks for this post!

[Ptipois]

Lately I've been told "bonne continuation" after a second or third course is presented, which I find to be kind of an industrialized form of politesse.  Like being on a train after a stop.  Non?

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"Bonne continuation" is a good example of "furniture manners", something you say just for the sake of saying something. When one is not close to a person and cannot say "bon voyage", "good luck", "have a great time" or "kiss the kids for me", one sometimes says "bonne continuation", just some sound really, which has the merit (?) of not meaning anything.

It has — as you have noticed — been industrialized in recent years, particularly in restaurants. In any case, restaurant or daily life, it always sounds a bit vulgar from being so stiff, awkward and commercial. It makes me cringe every time. I'll take "bon appétit" any time.

Only once, though, I admired the creativity of waiters in a Brest fish restaurant, all dressed in black-and-blue striped t-shirts, who said "bonne traversée" after picking up the menus.

[John Talbott]

Lately I've been told "bonne continuation" after a second or third course is presented, which I find to be kind of an industrialized form of politesse.  Like being on a train after a stop.  Non?

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"Bonne continuation" is a good example of "furniture manners", something you say just for the sake of saying something. When one is not close to a person and cannot say "bon voyage", "good luck", "have a great time" or "kiss the kids for me", one sometimes says "bonne continuation", just some sound really, which has the merit (?) of not meaning anything.

It has — as you have noticed — been industrialized in recent years, particularly in restaurants. In any case, restaurant or daily life, it always sounds a bit vulgar from being so stiff, awkward and commercial. It makes me cringe every time. I'll take "bon appétit" any time.

Only once, though, I admired the creativity of waiters in a Brest fish restaurant, all dressed in black-and-blue striped t-shirts, who said "bonne traversée" after picking up the menus.

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Pti, how about "That was?" or "Were you pleased by that?" Do you think/feel he/she/they really want an answer other than "Super" "Delicious" "Great." I've found (Ok, speaking like a Spanish cow) when I say something like "Banal" it's like speaking to my now-gone-elsewhere dog, with a big smile on my face while saying "Bad dog." Actually, I rather like "bonne continuation."

[carlux]

My opinion on all this is that there are still rules in parts of French society - not in the country where I live, where for the most part, people happily wish each other Bon Apetit.

But France had, and still has to some extent, more 'refined' and formal levels of society that we don't meet much in the Perigord. And not just France. If you read Elizabeth David's biography you'll find that when she was growing up in England, it was not considered polite in upper class society to acknowledge food at all. It was just there, and not to be discussed (of course she says that's one of the reasons it was so bad) There has obviously been a huge change in the way people think about, and talk about food, but some vestiges of this approach still survive.

In fact the French news, when reviewing this article said that 'Bon Apetit' refers to digestion, which refers to part of the body, which are not then suitable for discussion in polite company.

And regarding the famous orange juice that Polly Platt says is served when the evening is over and you are meant to go home. For years I waited for orange juice, and asked pepoel had they ever heard of it. Again, it turns out that I'm not traveling in the right circles. A friend who worked for Unesco and attended formal diplomatic dinners assures me that this is done - as does another, Canadian friend, who confirms it happens in Canada also. So it's not someone pulling Ms Platt's leg.

For ladies attending formal dinners, who must indeed wait for their partner on the right to fill their glass - if he is not watching out for your needs, or if as a French woman asked 'he is American and doesn't know he's supposed to do this', no moving your glass up and down, waving it, or whatever. You just rest secure in the knowledge that you at least have good manners - and go home very sober.

Our friends are not at all like this, and have never criticized us for doing something 'unFrench' - this summer we introduced our neighbours to Canadian corn on the cob, grown in our garden, and they all gamely picked it up, chewed away, and loved it. They even talk about grwoing it themselves next year.

But of course after 13 years here, we're pretty French ourselves.

[Daniel Rogov]

The rule of thumb concerning "bon appetit" in both France and French speaking Switzerland is quite simple - not appropriate during first or intermediate courses except on the part of a waiter but most assuredly in order between diners sharing the table at the onset of the main course of the meal.

And then of course there are the six styles in which a man may kiss the hand of a woman, each depending on the level of intimacy they have (or have not) shared. But that calls not for a written description but for a physical demonstration. I will say though that my favorite is the hand kiss a man gives to a woman with whom he desires to have "warmer" relations.

[Ptipois]

Pti, how about "That was?" or "Were you pleased by that?"  Do you think/feel he/she/they really want an answer other than "Super" "Delicious" "Great."  I've found (Ok, speaking like a Spanish cow) when I say something like "Banal" it's like speaking to my now-gone-elsewhere dog, with a big smile on my face while saying "Bad dog."  Actually, I rather like "bonne continuation."

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Excuse my thickness, John, but what situation exactly are you referring to? A waiter asking you if everything was all right? If so, you should take it at face value. If something was wrong, that is the moment to say so, whatever face they pull when you do. If you say "banal" they are likely to be dumbfounded, they are used to yes or no answers (more often yes than no).

As for "bonne continuation", every time I hear it I feel the way I do when I get a spam phone call from the antipodes asking me if I want to know about a great way to reduce my taxes. In French, it sounds so phony.

[John Talbott]

it sounds so phony

I guess that is what I was struggling to say; I think often (at least in the places I eat in, no stars) the waitpeople are asking if I liked it as a reflex and really aren't listening to the answer.

It's like bus drivers and waitresses in London who say "thank you" whenever you say anything; it's automatic, like "ummm" or "ahhhhh".

Pti, how about "That was?" or "Were you pleased by that?"  Do you think/feel he/she/they really want an answer other than "Super" "Delicious" "Great."  I've found (Ok, speaking like a Spanish cow) when I say something like "Banal" it's like speaking to my now-gone-elsewhere dog, with a big smile on my face while saying "Bad dog."  Actually, I rather like "bonne continuation."

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Excuse my thickness, John, but what situation exactly are you referring to? A waiter asking you if everything was all right? If so, you should take it at face value. If something was wrong, that is the moment to say so, whatever face they pull when you do. If you say "banal" they are likely to be dumbfounded, they are used to yes or no answers (more often yes than no).

As for "bonne continuation", every time I hear it I feel the way I do when I get a spam phone call from the antipodes asking me if I want to know about a great way to reduce my taxes. In French, it sounds so phony.

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[Ptipois]

it sounds so phony

I guess that is what I was struggling to say; I think often (at least in the places I eat in, no stars) the waitpeople are asking if I liked it as a reflex and really aren't listening to the answer.

It's like bus drivers and waitresses in London who say "thank you" whenever you say anything; it's automatic, like "ummm" or "ahhhhh".

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That is pretty much the case, most of the time they are not even listening. Which does not mean you should not reply and give them a taste of reality. In high end restaurants, though, they do listen.

Hoping to close the subject on "bon appétit": in the book, you're not really supposed to say it, in real life nearly everybody says it. It does depend on the situation though. But whenever it is said, it is at the very beginning of the meal or never.

[John Talbott]

And people go the bathroom all the time.

An interesting update, perhaps. A relatively new place Le Petit Casier in the 15th, where we ate today, has a bathroom in the basement with the most wonderful antique wood doors - all the critics have noted them, so how on earth do you suppose they saw them?

[Ptipois]

And people go the bathroom all the time.

An interesting update, perhaps. A relatively new place Le Petit Casier in the 15th, where we ate today, has a bathroom in the basement with the most wonderful antique wood doors - all the critics have noted them, so how on earth do you suppose they saw them?

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Oh, this is a simple one.

Because visiting a restaurant when you are a food critic or reviewer implies a mandatory visit of the bathroom. Some restaurant guides explicitly request that from their researchers. Those critics have just done their homework.

The state of the bathroom tells a lot about the restaurant. At any rate, it should never be overlooked, even if it is not mentioned in the review. This is actually outside the subject of manners.

Really, there should be one way to sum up this whole thread before we may switch to another manner-related topic: in France if you have to go to the bathroom during a meal, well, you go. Everybody does, although discretion is obviously the norm.

Edited January 31, 2008 by Ptipois (log)

[Abra]

May I just add another bon appetit bit? Here in the south it's very common for people to say bon appetit if they see you around a mealtime. Get some bread at the boulangerie around noon and the person behind the counter will tell you bon appetit onyour way out the door. Walk down the street with the bread on your way home and if you meet anyone you know they'll say bon appetit. Even a phone call around lunch time may end with a bon appetit before the au revoir. I think it's charming, myself.

And now that the header of this thread has been rather bizarrely changed, I have to say that it is never proper to say bon appetit in bathrooms!

Edited February 1, 2008 by Abra (log)