April Whites article in Philly Mag-

[JohnL]

I am coming out of retirement for this one....

To address a few comments in the thread, to those with whom I disagree, please understand it is simply a difference in opnion.

JeffL, I love you and you rock unfortunately on two points....

The french Laundry and perse are not cutting edge restaurants, they are good restaurants. What they do is certainly in no way shape or form on par with Alinea.

They are excellent restaurants and Keller is a good chef but cutting edge would be reserved for those challenging convention.

Keller's restaurants "refine" convention but do not "challenge" it.

Alinea "challenges" convention as doe WD-50, Snackbar, Moto, Gagnaire ect ect.

In archtectural terms......French Laundry and PerSe are like Helmut Jahn (#1 and #2 liberty place in philadelphia), Alinea is like Frank Gehry or Rem Koolhass (Gugenheim Museum Bilbao and Seattle Public library Respectively).

Amada is a good restaurant but it is in no way the "unparralelled" spanish tapas place on the east coast. First of all they have 90% table service and they do not serve better food than Casa Mono, Boqueria and nowhere near as good as Tia Pol.

It is a GOOD place but it gets hype because it was the first to do what it does in Philadelphia much like Le Bec Fin, Buddakan, Continental, Striped Bass.

Purely the same reason people who had never set foot in Paris used to say LBF was the best french restaurant in the world back in the roaring 80's.

April White's conclusions were sublimated into the wrong statement, "we need better Italian restaurants", what she was saying in a broader context is we need more mid priced places with liquor licenses that serve better food than BYOB's which are able to effortlessly sell mediocre food to the masses purely on the value of savings on alchohol prices...........and that means virtually every italian BYOB in center city except perhaps melograno.

The bar of mediocrity is much lower for italian cuisine because it inherently depends on a few basic flavors to communicate it's intergrity.

THUS, cutting any corners like using cheap Olio, serving pregrated cheeses, American proscuitto and all that other garbage shows.

If Liquor licences in Philly became less than 10 grand like they are in Manhattan, the BYOboom in Philly will vaporize within 6 months.

The kind of food that elevates young chef's to the national stage requires the food cost percentage generated by liquor revenues and that is straight from our freinds at Microsoft excell.

Food and wine's ten best new chefs philadelphia

Pernot, Martorella, Vetri, Lee, Filoni................no BYO's

Despite all Django's hoopla, it was just a local phenom based on BYO "methodology".

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You make a great case for redoing the PA liquor laws!

The restaurant scene could be much better than it is!

You also seem to under rate Philadelphia restaurants. I think if we simply look at places in terms of how they stack up in more general terms it would be easier. "Best" is subjective and really one's personal tastes, preferences experiences are a determining factor in applying superlatives.

I think it is safe to say that Philadelphia has many fine restaurants period. For eg, in its hayday, Striped bass would be included in most people's top ten seafood restaurants for the US (ok so it wasn't number one).

It is also safe to say that the food scene on Philadelphia is limited by two things--the makeup of Philadelphia itself and the laws and restrictions that impact how the restaurant business operates.

Every city has its own population and socio economic make up and in addition, I believe that every city competes for business and tourist dollars.

As for the Spanish restaurant issue (Tapas is really more like small plates here and not the bar food of Spain)--I believe you vastly underestimate Amada and you over rate some fine establishments in New York City. The city is still without a Spanish restaurant that is top rank. Meigas which had potential fled a bad Manhattan location for Norwalk CT. Bocqueria is still young and the food is erratic. (the place has potential). Tia Pol--the pretensions of this place are lower than those of Amada (the space is cramped) and Batali does nice Tapas in a small uncomfortable space (more akin to the Spanish bar food scenerio).

You are right on in your statement about profits and profit potential leading to a better restaurant and food situation. I do disagree that BYO's will disappear. There is an audience for them in Philly. Also, most restaurants offer the oppty to bring one's own wine for the most part and pay corkage).

The upshot of all this is that there are few cities whose main attraction to most people traveling is food. (in fact I am hard pressed to name one). Good food does make one's trip more pleasurable and can even be a key factor(one of many) in choosing a city in which to schedule a visit or a business trip or vacation. It seems to me that one should look at Philadelphia in terms of what the city is and has to offer first, rather than attempt to compare it to other cities.

[philadining]

I agree with matthewj: I'm glad this has inspired so much discussion, and I can only hope that it's prompting some similar contemplation amongst aspiring restauranteurs. I think it's a great article if only for prodding people to think about it.

But I might argue with a few of the primary assumptions. Let's start with the propositions that the Philly restaurant scene is in a rut, and that new restaurants opening are laughably predictable. (Relatively) recent openings saw Gayle, Rae, Ansill, Snackbar, Bar Ferdinand, M, James, Oceanaire, Fogo de Chao, Cebu, plenty more, none of which is a cutely-named, fresh-and-local, him in the back-her out front, BYOB.

I think we're out of that rut, and if there's a glut of small-plates, at least they're not all the same. On the flip-side, as much as we may roll our eyes about it, as Capaneus points out, the BYOB phenomenon has catalyzed some really good cooking, and eating, in town. Sure, other regions allow BYOB, but I travel a bit, and I've never seen such a concentration of creative cooking in little places, that allow one to eat well without breaking the bank. It's true enough that a city can't have a world-class dining scene if all the restaurants are tiny, casual BYOBs, but we don't have that problem. Some of the best meals I've had in the last few years, irrespective of cost, have been in BYOBs.

As to what we need, I'll have to disagree with some of the contributors, including some respected colleagues here: we DON'T need more freaking Italian restaurants!! Sure, any new GOOD restaurant is welcome, and I look forward to Vetri's Osteria, but the suggestion that there's nothing in between Ralph's and Vetri is ridiculous. More gastropubs? Sure I love them, but we've got lots. If you're tired of them, you're tired of life...

I think the larger point is that the best restaurant scenes and movements arise organically. And that's happening. There's an amazing Mexican scene springing up here, and it's coming from Mexican cooks and chefs, not someone pondering what the city needs more of. The little taquerias and shops that are revitalizing a previously dismal section of the Italian Market are just one part of it. Want a little more fancy than just basic tacos and enchiladas? We've got that too. Sure, we could use some more regional focus in all the larger cuisines, I'd love a good Oaxacan place, but we'll get there... We got TWO good Sichuan places in Chinatown recently. We have four Malaysian restaurants. Manhattan doesn't have four Malaysian restaurants.

But more importantly, ethnic influences are being felt from within the kitchens of upscale restaurants, much like the Thai kitchen workers fueled much of the earlier restaurant renaissance of the 70s and 80s. It's already happening, but I expect we'll see more interesting places open as the line cooks and sous-chefs decide to open their own places based on the food they grew up, filtered through the chops they learned in other kitchens. Many of those workers are Mexican and Central American right now, so I predict we'll see more and more good little independent places with that cuisine at the core, and some modern polish too.

I guess I'm just feeling that the kids are alright. I'm not sure we are at a momentous crossroads, it seems to me that the restaurant scene is pretty interesting and diverse and exciting. Garces really did it right at Amada, and we'll see some new, regional, spin-offs soon. That's cool. We've got some city-edge action, with cool BYOBs and little ethnic spots out in West Philly; Pif and James and Vietnamese and Mexican places among the flood of Italian in South Philly, Gastropubs, Tapas, Mexican and more in Northern Liberties and beyond; the Osteria soon to be on North Broad; the Korean, South American, Russian and Eastern European out in the Northeast; the diversity in Upper Darby... We're really not in bad shape. I'm never bored.

On the flip-side, whether Philly will support the real forward-leaning places remains to be seen. There's really thrilling food coming out of the kitchen at snackbar, but we've still got people on this list, this crowd of gonzo foodies who haven't gone, or went once. Lacroix gets four bells largely from its being experimental and yet I haven't seen any recent reports here. Ansill has been serving up some great stuff you won't see elsewhere, but I've never had to wait for a table. If even we're not going, what lessons should a restauranteur take from that? There are not a ton of experimental places in NY either, Chicago seems to hold the cards on that movement for some reason, but Philly ought to be able to support some of that, with the relatively low overhead (compared to NY or San Francisco or even DC) and an active, informed dining scene.

I hadn't thought about the PR angle, and it could be a factor. Say what you will about the Starr organization, but they know how to create buzz, but they haven't done much around here for a while. I do look forward to the bistro on Rittenhouse square, I too loved the Blue Angel. But given the location and the owners, it's likely to be a bit more expensive and scene-y than those of us craving a neighborhood haunt for simple French food. But other restauranteurs could take a lesson from them - it's immaterial whether Buddakan is "gourmet" or not, the fact that they have been able to maintain excitement about it far outside center city (I've been asked about it by people from out of state) explains why they're still busy after all these years, without making significant changes to the menu or the decor or the overall concept. And people aren't stupid, they go, and go back, because they had a good time. Sneer all you want at the "theater" of it, but people like to feel that they've gone somewhere different, special, exotic. Giant Buddhas, water walls and glowing communal tables aren't required, but giving a sense that the dinner is a special event is a winning formula.

It's not the only one - plenty of our faves succeed with little or no flash - but if the restaurant is putting out good food, but having trouble staying full, a little PR and marketing is probably the answer. And that helps on a national scale too. It's true enough that not many people go to a city merely to eat, but it can sway the argument - I'm sure many vacation decisions have tipped toward New Orleans or San Francisco, or NY, based on the prospect of getting good food along the way, because it's just understood that those are great food towns. Chicago is starting to get that rep. Philly deserves it, but I don't know if the outside world knows more than cheesesteaks, Le Bec Fin and who was that Iron Chef guy? Is he still there?

I think the strength of Philly in general is that it has a comfortable scale, a neighborhoody feel. And many of our best restaurants reflect that, and should. Whether it's the ingrained Philly low-self-esteem or more of an admirable modesty, we're generally not all that concerned about being world-class, and I don't think we need be. We have lots of really great culture of all types, including food, that fits our lives very well, and if anybody else notices, well, fine. If not, their loss. That's the Philly character: deserving of more respect and recognition, but resigned to not getting it, and a little pissed about that, but not too much.

Recognition happens sometimes - Vetri gets good national press, Amada has gotten attention outside the city, and within our eG world, a few folks listed StudioKitchen as among their best meals of the year (including one listing it above Alinea, French Laundry and other heavy-hitters.) All this does create some sense in the outside world that we've got something going on here...

So again, I think Philly's doing fine. But stop with the pasta already, go eat some weird food, it's going to inspire and influence the other chefs around here, and everything will get more interesting. Support those restauranteurs who are trying something new. Go eat some buffed-up Mexican at Molcajete Mixto, it's good! Go order something with powders and foams at snackbar, it's delicious! Go eat some lamb's tongues or sweetbreads at Ansill, you'll like them! Go set your mouth on fire at the Tasty House, it's addicting!

Oh, and those little mom-and-pop BYOBs that we roll our eyes at are still putting out some excellent food. I'd be fine with a new swarm of those, if they're as good as Mandoline and Matyson and Melograno.

Nope, I'm not gnashing my teeth about our restaurant scene, unless that gnashing involves chewing on some roast duck...

[Vadouvan]

WKL.............yes we do have a reputation of a civilian population that predominantly want BYo's.

That does keep people from setting up shop here plus the liquor laws and Philadelphia's idiotic BPT make people say thanks but no thanks.

JeffL ..I dont underestimate Amada, its a good restaurant but Frankly Tia Pol serves better food. Amada is defnitely the best Tapas place in Philly but it's a big fish -small pond issue.

Amada is comparable to Ripert's Barca18, no better.

Soon we weill be having discussions on the finer points of whether Basque restaurants should be serving duck confit or Foie gras in any shape or form when Tinto opens.

the issue is a lot of restaurants will create thier own version of what is "authentic" clearly based on the fact that the dining audience isnt better educated on the subject.

[rlibkind]

The upshot of all this is that there are few cities whose main attraction to most people traveling is food. (in fact I am hard pressed to name one). Good food does make one's trip more pleasurable and can even be a key factor(one of many) in choosing a city in which to schedule a visit or a business trip or vacation.

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I think Percyn's account of his sidetrip to Paris after doing business in Stockholm demonstrates that there's at least one person who travels simply to eat . Your basic point that the attraction of restaurants at best only augments travel decisions for 99.99 percent of the population is spot on; no city is going to bring in significant tourist dollars on strength of food alone if it offers nothing else. But there are the rare crazies among us (does that include most eGulleters?) who plan our trips (or make 100-mile detours) for specific eating experiences.

[lancastermike]

The upshot of all this is that there are few cities whose main attraction to most people traveling is food. (in fact I am hard pressed to name one). Good food does make one's trip more pleasurable and can even be a key factor(one of many) in choosing a city in which to schedule a visit or a business trip or vacation.

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I think Percyn's account of his sidetrip to Paris after doing business in Stockholm demonstrates that there's at least one person who travels simply to eat . Your basic point that the attraction of restaurants at best only augments travel decisions for 99.99 percent of the population is spot on; no city is going to bring in significant tourist dollars on strength of food alone if it offers nothing else. But there are the rare crazies among us (does that include most eGulleters?) who plan our trips (or make 100-mile detours) for specific eating experiences.

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I certainly travel the 60 miles to Philadelphia just to eat. Planning a weekend trip now for Maggie's birthday in February and really all I am thinking about is were we are going to eat. If that makes me a crazie, I am glad to be so tagged

[philadining]

the issue is a lot of restaurants will create thier own version of what is "authentic" clearly based on the fact that the dining audience isnt better educated on the subject.

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This is just me, but I'm not all that interested in "authentic" per se. I'm interested in sincere, and delicious. There's just too much bound up in the authenticity argument: I'm not sure one can really have authentic experience divorced from the context of the original place. So outside of its home, it's all an interpretation.

And those acts of interpretation strike me as a much more "authentic" expression of the world we inhabit. We're not living in an isolated village in 1807, we're in a multiculti, cosmopolitan 2007. Cuisines, and all artistic expressions, expand and embrace new influences. If a penguin had waddled into a mediaeval French town, its legs would probably have ended up in a cassoulet, and they would have done something bizarre to its liver, and we would have thought that authentic French food used penguin.

I don't happen to subscribe to the opinion that Miles wasn't doing Jazz anymore when he used a wah-wah pedal on his horn, so it's OK with me if Tinto decides to serve foie gras pintxos. I'll bet Arzak serves a few things that would have mystified his grandmother. But that's just my perspective.

I trust V's opinion that Tia Pol has better tapas than Amada. But I always leave Amada very satisfied, and impressed, so I'm just not concerned with comparing it to anything. I'm just saying it's an enjoyable place to have a meal, and that's something Philly's got going for it.

Edited January 10, 2007 by philadining (log)

[JohnL]

the issue is a lot of restaurants will create thier own version of what is "authentic" clearly based on the fact that the dining audience isnt better educated on the subject.

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This is just me, but I'm not all that interested in "authentic" per se. I'm interested in sincere, and delicious. There's just too much bound up in the authenticity argument: I'm not sure one can really have authentic experience divorced from the context of the original place. So outside of its home, it's all an interpretation.

And those acts of interpretation strike me as a much more "authentic" expression of the world we inhabit. We're not living in an isolated village in 1807, we're in a multiculti, cosmopolitan 2007. Cuisines, and all artistic expressions, expand and embrace new influences. If a penguin had waddled into a mediaeval French town, its legs would probably have ended up in a cassoulet, and they would have done something bizarre to its liver, and we would have thought that authentic French food used penguin.

I don't happen to subscribe to the opinion that Miles wasn't doing Jazz anymore when he used a wah-wah pedal on his horn, so it's OK with me if Tinto decides to serve foie gras pintxos. I'll bet Arzak serves a few things that would have mystified his grandmother. But that's just my perspective.

I trust V's opinion that Tia Pol has better tapas than Amada. But I always leave Amada very satisfied, and impressed, so I'm just not concerned with comparing it to anything. I'm just saying it's an enjoyable place to have a meal, and that's something Philly's got going for it.

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I think we can certainly agree to disagree re: Amada. (and Tia Pol and...).

In my opinion (and a number of others) this is a very special restaurant. There is no Spanish restaurant of any type in NY that equals it. Tia Pol is very good but it's pretensions are different than those of Amada.

The "authentic" thing is IMOP not a big deal. It could be argued that any number of leading restaurants in Spain are not authentic. El Bulli? Arzak? In most cases authentic depends upon one person's definition that is locked into a certain point in time.

I would also ask Capaneus what corckage fees he is currently paying--I sympathize with his situation. New York has a number of restuarants with very interesting and very inexpensive wine lists--there is no reason Philadelphia shouldn't have a similar situation.

[philadining]

I would also ask Capaneus what corckage fees he is currently paying--I sympathize with his situation. New York has a number of restuarants with very interesting and very inexpensive wine lists--there is no reason Philadelphia shouldn't have a similar situation.

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This is another thing that people not from the area often miss: in virtually all BYOBs in Philly, the corkage fee is zero. I've never been to any that charge, although I've heard of it -(Divan?) Not that it changes the argument significantly, but it does underscore what a great deal it is to drink your own wine at a nice restaurant in Philly. Additionally, several upscale places with liquor licenses have added BYOB nights once a week, either regularly or for a limited period. My understanding is that there are no corkage fees there either.

[Capaneus]

I would also ask Capaneus what corkage fees he is currently paying--I sympathize with his situation. New York has a number of restaurants with very interesting and very inexpensive wine lists--there is no reason Philadelphia shouldn't have a similar situation.

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For the most part, I'm not paying corkage. I go to BYOBs, I go to restaurants that have fairly-priced wine lists, and I go to BYOB nights at many of the rest - a development which I am just sure our great-hearted local restaurant nabobs would have instituted without the prod of BYOB restaurants, by the way. They just never thought of it before.

Corkages are usually designed to place a bar on most of the wines I can afford, anyway. Though that is changing as well, as restaurants realize that a BYO butt on a chair is more profitable than an empty chair. Taking many people surprisingly long to figure this out, though.

And NY has better lists than Philadelphia, yes (though we're getting better), but that is in many ways not our restaurants' fault: NYers pay wholesale. What puzzles me is why there are no restaurants anywhere in the US that follow the everyday European model I've mentioned above. It's possible there's a practical reason, but I'll be darned if I can think of it.

[JohnL]

Wow!

I have eaten at a few BYOB's in Philly and to be honest, I never paid attention to whether or not there was a corkage fee. I assumed there was. (i gotta pay attention)

As much as I am for the consumer this is an absurd situation.

Are you folks bringing your own glassware and ice buckets too?

Really, no wonder Capaneus is such a staunch defender of the status quo!

and why folks like Ms White are challenging it. If I were thinking of opening a world class restaurant (and my name wasn't Starr) I would think twice about doing it in Philadelphia.

[mrbigjas]

This is another thing that people not from the area often miss: in virtually all BYOBs in Philly, the corkage fee is zero. I've never been to any that charge, although I've heard of it  -(Divan?)

they did at first, then another time we went back there they didn't, and now they have a liquor license from what i hear.

[matthewj]

I disagree with V ( heaven Forbid ) I believe that BYOS could still be a good starting point for beginning restaurants, and that the relevance could be long term, if a Liquor Licence was attainable. But i think that Stephen Starr would be much less relevant of a issue of trend dinning if a smaller restaurant was able to compete head to head with innovation, and creativity, and class. That is only if they were even allowed to attain a simple wine only license.

[SG-]

The upshot of all this is that there are few cities whose main attraction to most people traveling is food. (in fact I am hard pressed to name one). Good food does make one's trip more pleasurable and can even be a key factor(one of many) in choosing a city in which to schedule a visit or a business trip or vacation.

←

I think Percyn's account of his sidetrip to Paris after doing business in Stockholm demonstrates that there's at least one person who travels simply to eat . Your basic point that the attraction of restaurants at best only augments travel decisions for 99.99 percent of the population is spot on; no city is going to bring in significant tourist dollars on strength of food alone if it offers nothing else. But there are the rare crazies among us (does that include most eGulleters?) who plan our trips (or make 100-mile detours) for specific eating experiences.

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Having lived in Philly for well over a decade and recently moving to the West coast. Here's how I envision my future trips back east will go, book a hotel in NYC, visit friends and family in Philly for a couple of days. Other than cheesesteak runs, I'll probably spend all my money on meals in NYC.

[Vadouvan]

At the end of the day, too many people are just cheap hypocrites who set a different standard of consumer expectations for restaurants than they do for other industries. Restaurants operate on slim margins but everyone wants something free for every percieved slight even when it isnt the restaurant's fault. People complain about dishes being "fairly" priced like dining out is a forced endeavor.

let table + free drinks or apps.

You go to a Dr's office with an appointment and still wait 45 mins, the same jackass Dr comes to a restaurant and complains like he is moses when his table is 5 minutes late.

NO AMOUNT of soundproofing is going to make any restaurant quiet unless the patrons are quiet.

RESTAURANTS ARE LOUD BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO EAT THERE ARE LOUD.

EVEN SK is loud when capeneus is there...hee he.

I am not sure there is any crisis in the food scene in philly other than a trendy lack of imagination............thus every cuisine or style results in several similar places opening at the same time, currently we are shooting our small plate load.

NEXT.......Bistro.

Yo SG...how's it going in San Fran ?

PM me....lets meet up in Ny.

Edited January 11, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[MarketStEl]

Wow!

I have eaten at a few BYOB's in Philly and to be honest, I never paid attention to whether or not there was a corkage  fee. I assumed there was. (i gotta pay attention)

As much as I am for the consumer this is an absurd situation.

Are you folks bringing your own glassware and ice buckets too?

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You have heard, haven't you, that Philadelphians have a reputation for frugality, our generosity as tippers notwithstanding? I'm not at all surprised that BYOs have such devoted fans on those grounds.

But I must second Capaneus on one of his larger points. One of the things that I like a lot about "New York" (put in quotes here because I'm really talking about Manhattan below 96th Street, though you can find what I'm talking about in many outer-borough commercial zones too) is that it is chock-full of decent, reasonably priced places to eat -- places that you can return to again and again and know that you will have an enjoyable experience and money still in your wallet afterwards. And that's after ordering both food and alcoholic beverages. (I guess the restaurateurs figure they ought to give the residents a break, given that they're spending almost all their income on rent.)

I believe that Capaneus' point is that before the BYO explosion, Philadelphia was notably lacking in places of this type. Part of the reason--perhaps a large part--had to do with the archaic liquor laws, and I'm sure another part had to do with the perverse tax disincentives. If the tale of "Sushi Nation" that played out on this forum last year is any guide, another part may also have to do with the regulatory and union hurdles people have to jump here. (Can any New Yorkers tell me whether those factors are significantly less burdensome there? Something tells me they may not be.)

Now, it could also have something to do with the relatively tiny spaces many New Yorkers inhabit, or the small kitchens included with the spaces they inhabit -- after all, if you like food and you live in an apartment with a decent kitchen, there's a high chance that you will want to cook in it, and a far higher proportion of middle- and upper-middle-class urban Philadelphians live in such apartments or houses than do Manhattanites. (You've all seen the kitchen in my Center City apartment, which I would consider a middle-of-the-pack property; it's a little larger than some apartment kitchens I've seen, but I've also seen many that are comparable to it in size. If you haven't, review my foodblogs.) But whatever the reason, the structure of Philadelphia's restaurant hierarchy for most of the time I've lived here had a top and a bottom but not much of a middle. The BYOs (and the gastropubs) have given it one.

[Vadouvan]

Matt, the reason i dont think BYOB's are a goodstarting point is that once you open a BYO for at least 3 months, you can never get a liquor license and keep more than 20% of your previous customers.

[MarketStEl]

I hadn't thought about the PR angle, and it could be a factor. Say what you will about the Starr organization, but they know how to create buzz, but they haven't done much around here for a while. I do look forward to the bistro on Rittenhouse square, I too loved the Blue Angel. But given the location and the owners, it's likely to be a bit more expensive and scene-y than those of us craving a neighborhood haunt for simple French food. But other restauranteurs could take a lesson from them - it's immaterial whether Buddakan is "gourmet" or not, the fact that they have been able to maintain excitement about it far outside center city (I've been asked about it by people from out of state) explains why they're still busy after all these years, without making significant changes to the menu or the decor or the overall concept.  And people aren't stupid, they go, and go back, because they had a good time. Sneer all you want at the "theater" of it, but people like to feel that they've gone somewhere different, special, exotic. Giant Buddhas, water walls and glowing communal tables aren't required, but giving a sense that the dinner is a special event is a winning formula. 

It's not the only one - plenty of our faves succeed with little or no flash -  but if the restaurant is putting out good food, but having trouble staying full, a little PR and marketing is probably the answer. And that helps on a national scale too. It's true enough that not many people go to a city merely to eat, but it can sway the argument - I'm sure many vacation decisions have tipped toward New Orleans or San Francisco, or NY, based on the prospect of getting good food along the way, because it's just understood that those are great food towns. Chicago is starting to get that rep. Philly deserves it, but I don't know if the outside world knows more than cheesesteaks, Le Bec Fin and who was that Iron Chef guy? Is he still there?

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Katie will no doubt recall the late-night Korean BBQ pigout that included both me and the chef from Django among the participants.

I recall Russ (? I'm horrible with names) saying he was looking to drive traffic for a new prix fixe menu he was offering, and I offered to whip up a release.

The offer remains on the table. I haven't heard anything since then.

[shameless plug]

Anyone else who cares: You've seen my writing on this board. 267-386-1010.

[/shameless plug]

As for food as a bonus factor in choosing to visit a city: I even see this at work in my hometown. This morning, Tavis Smiley (PBS commentator and author of the best-selling book The Covenant with Black America) checked in with Tom Joyner for his regular twice-weekly commentary spot on Tom's morning show, which draws a huge audience among African-Americans.

He was in Kansas City to attend an event sponsored by the local SCLC chapter, but the first minute or so of his commentary slot was taken up with talk about barbecue. "If you're in Kansas City, they're gonna make sure you don't leave without 'cue," Smiley said to general agreement by Tom Joyner and crew.

I can remember when the only people who cared about KC 'cue were Kansas Citians. No longer. 'Nuff said?

[Meanderer]

Speaking from the perspective of someone who lives a significant distance from Philadelphia and its restaurants, I am amused both by the article that prompted the thread and by many of the posts. It makes me imagine a discussion in the household of Sam Walton where some of his children are upset because dad is not as rich as Warren Buffet and Bill Gates and that must mean there is something wrong with him.

From following numerous other threads here, I have to think you have almost an embarassment of riches in your restaurant scene. The choices you have when you decide to eat out are almost endless and dozens of restaurants have appeared about which posters have expressed lofty opinions.

I perfomed a small experiment. I went on line and looked at the menu of Matyson, a place I've never eaten. Of the 7 appetizers, I would happily eat 6 if well prepared. Of 7 entrees, I think I would enjoy all 7. That means I could make 6 enjoyable visits to Matyson even if it never changed its menu before I would have to order something twice. If I then turn to Pif, Mandoline Vetri, Striped Bass and every other place that has received accolades here, I would never run out of opportunities to eat well even if I ate out every night for the next year. Perhaps no dish would be considered by some to be cutting edge or imaginative, but I don't care, so long as it is exceptionally good. A few years ago, a shot glass of tomato water was cutting edge--I can give you gallons of the stuff as soon as my tomatoes ripen next summer.

If you must have cutting edge food to make you happy, take a vacation where you will find it. If you have cutting edge food in your neighborhood, maybe even that will make you jaded.

[wkl]

"If you must have cutting edge food to make you happy, take a vacation where you will find it. If you have cutting edge food in your neighborhood, maybe even that will make you jaded."

i don't think this discussion is about cutting edge food in philadelphia. chicago, for whatever reason, seems to have that market cornored.

philadelphia really doesn't have "cutting edge food" like alinea, moto, etc. and i don't think we are lamenting that either.

[Meanderer]

Perhaps "cutting edge" was the wrong phrase, but I was responding to the opinions of some that there was an absence of imagination.

[matthewj]

I do not believe that this discussion is about cutting edge food, per se, but maybe the long term "potential" of that food, and if the market would accept that food,( I think Keller's food is cutting edge, because he has created a long line of followers and , and his standards are on the edge of perfection) and why it would or would not be profitable to venture into a Philadelphia hospitality market.

I do not think anyone is disputing the claim of the fore most mentioned restaurants are bad or interesting. But I believe that April is throwing a gauntlet, questioning why isn't there more small type restaurants that aspire to be a chef and restaurant such as Vetri. It has both national and local appeal. This has nothing to do with being Italian or such it could be many different types of restaurants.

My feeling is that Vetri is a great example,( I love examples as you all can tell) because if you put that restaurant in any other city, even New York, although with a lot more competition it would do well. Not because it is Italian. Because the chef and vision of the restuarant can be morphed into another cities Food culture, because it is clear and simple." great food great dinning"

If the argument runs to the point that his price point is too high or his liquor margin is to0 high, I believe that if the laws were different his price would be lower. To do the cover that he wants and to control everything within the dining room and the kitchen with a small staff he need to price at that level.

I am not sure you can say that about others restaurants in Philadelphia. There is a small handful, I believe it has a lot to do with the chef and his or her vision.

To reply to V, I think that you are right on the money. I believe that the 20% of the clientele would leave. But why? It illustrates my point that Philadelphia eaters would not support the small restuarant evolving intro something else. Others cities would embrace the change and continue to patronize. Example (again) Tetsuya. Started as a BYOB. Now look at it. Keller for years had to devote his efforts keeping the locals happy, and they stayed loyal.

Sometimes I think that the dinners in Philadelphia punish a National success of a restaurant. They collectively want to keep it all for themselves.

[Holly Moore]

Matt, the reason i dont think BYOB's are a goodstarting point is that once you open a BYO for at least 3 months, you can never get a liquor  license and keep more than 20% of your previous customers.

←

Aged, annectdotal insight. Back in the days when quiche was cutting edge for Philadelphia, I opened and ran my restaurant for a year without a license. Then, on a slow Monday night a six-top walked out because one guy had to have a martini.

I started the process for a liquor license the next week. First guy I talked with would loan me the money as long as I put in juke boxes. Then I found someone who took out liens on everything I owned and came by weekly for his check.

Net. Net. Once I got the license sales went up 50% and profits more than doubled - or something like that. It changes everytime I tell the story, but the liquor license gave us staying power. I lost some existing customers, but a lot stayed with me. And I got tablefulls of new customers.

Things may have changed, now that BYO is a sub-culture, but I suspect that even today wine sales and new business would more than make up for the lost customers.

[JohnL]

I do not believe that this discussion is about cutting edge food, per se, but maybe the long term "potential" of that food, and if the market would accept that food,( I think Keller's food is cutting edge, because he has created a long line of followers and , and his standards are on the edge of perfection) and why it would or would not be profitable to venture into a Philadelphia hospitality market. 

I do not think anyone is disputing the claim of the fore most mentioned restaurants are bad or interesting.  But I believe that April is throwing a gauntlet, questioning why isn't there more small type restaurants that aspire to be a chef and restaurant such as Vetri. It has both national and local appeal.  This has nothing to do with being Italian or such it could be many different types of restaurants. 

My feeling is that Vetri is a great example,( I love examples as you all can tell) because if you put that restaurant in any other city, even New York, although with a lot more competition it would do well.  Not because it is Italian. Because the chef and vision of the restuarant can be morphed into another cities Food culture, because it is clear and simple." great food great dinning"

If the argument runs to the point that his price point is too high or his liquor margin is to0 high, I believe that if the laws were different his price would be lower.  To do the cover that he wants and to control everything within the dining room and the kitchen with a small staff he need to price at that level.

I am not sure you can say that about others restaurants in Philadelphia.  There is a small handful, I believe it has a lot to do with the chef and his or her vision.

To reply to V, I think that you are right on the money.  I believe that the 20% of the clientele would leave.  But why?  It illustrates my point that Philadelphia eaters would not support the small restuarant evolving intro something else.  Others cities would embrace the change and continue to patronize.  Example (again)  Tetsuya. Started as a BYOB.  Now look at it.  Keller for years had to devote his efforts keeping the locals happy, and they stayed loyal.

Sometimes I think that the dinners in Philadelphia punish a National success of a restaurant.  They collectively want to keep it all for themselves.

←

Keller is not about keeping locals happy. His restaurants rely heavily upon tourism--Napa, Las Vegas and tourism and business customers--Per Se.

He did run a noteworthy restaurant here in NY --Rakel (at one time my favorite restaurant here). it was in a poor location and when the stock market experienced a downturn he lost a lot of his Wall Street business and closed.

To put this Philadelphia discussion into better perspective:

Philadelphians seem find much to support in the BYO scene (though there seems to be plenty of debate among them). However, one would find very little support among three key groups of potential customers:

1--Tourists

2--Business travelers

3--local Businesspersons

4--locals who would prefer full and reasonably priced beverage service on premise where they dine.

Any debate over the impact of BYO's or no BYO's on restaurant food quality and "cutting edge" establishments is speculative at best.

The fact is, Philadelphia does not compete as well with other cities for the aforementioned and important groups.

No one would argue that Philadelphia does not have some very fine restaurants or that one can not eat well there. The fact is, if BYO's are offering exciting food then adding a great wine list and beverage service to them can only make them more appealing to more people. The potential for Philadelphia's restaurant scene is greater than the present reality due in large part, to arcane and restrictive laws. governing a key area in dining for a very large number of people as well as the opportunity for a restaurant to thrive and make money.

[Vadouvan]

Holly if melograno or Radicchio got a liquor license tommorow, all those people waiting outside for an hour with wine bottles in hand would be dining elsewhere.

They would not be anywhere as busy.

I guess my point is if we were to devise a ratio of two reasons why people go to BYO's...

1. Absolutely stupendous food that one will wait for..........for hours without a reservation.

2. good enough (but mediocre in the bigger picture) food coupled with serious wine savings.

It is My cotention that the sucess of those restaurants is based on 2 and not 1.

just my opinion.

[philadining]

philadelphia really doesn't have "cutting edge food" like alinea, moto, etc. and i don't think we are lamenting that either.

←

I'm lamenting it! And noting that there is indeed some of that at places like snackbar. But I'm not sure people are lining up to eat the ocean trout with vanilla pomme purée and cranberry, or the pear jam with beer foam. But they should, not because they're cutting edge, but because they're delicious. A small place like this, serving innovative food for not a ton of money, with an interesting and reasonably-priced wine and beer list is a really nice exception to the same-old predictable places, no matter how good those may be. (and no, I'm not on their payroll, I just like snackbar, and think they're a good example for many of these discussions.)

snackbar's Johnny Mac and others in the Salt diaspora are doing some really interesting things in the Philly scene, and although Vernon Morales decamped for San Francisco, his influence remains in many cool places round town, just one of the reasons there's reason to be excited about the food around here.

I'm not sure there's a market for an outpost of Moto here, but I do hope there are enough adventurous diners to support a few chefs trying some experimental stuff. As long as it's tasty food, I find new approaches to be exactly what we need to keep us out of ruts, and hopefully some of that will drift over into the other places around town.

I like traditional cuisines, be they ethnically regional or the modern semi-fancy-restaurant tradition of good protein - pan sauce - seasonal veg - unsurprising starch. But that can get dull. I like trying something I've never had before, something I've never even thought of before. Not weird for weird's sake, just different. But I'm not confident that a large percentage of Philly diners are like that, so the chefs trying that are in for a risky journey. I just hope there are enough of us to keep them encouraged, and in business! And to keep the food trends out of ruts.