London Restaurant Guides - The Best Guide?

[andrew_j_craig]

I'll soon be departing the sunny shores of Sydney, Australia for life in England. I'll be leaving behind an impressive pastiche of foods and largely affordable restaurants. I am eager to know where I can be sated upon arrival in London, without burning through the pounds.

Which are the best food guides falling into the following categories:

a) General restaurant guide for London

b) Guide to (for want of a better word) "ethnic" restaurants and cafes with an emphasis on authenticity and value for money

c) Guide to pub and restaurant eating in Great Britain more generally

d) Guide to where the best produce can be found in London (eg good sources of bread, butchers, fresh markets, Thai ingredients etc)

I am less interested by Zagat's style popular opinion guides, and more by informed opinion.

The thoughts of London residents and visitors will be appreciated.

[Simon Majumdar]

Hi Andrew

I think you are as well looking on the threads of this board than buying a guide. Even though there is a preponderance of the higher end places, there is lots of discussion of great value for money places.

Of all of them, Time Out is the least offensive and it makes a useful reference and listings guide even if its reviewers wouldn't know a good restaurant if it hit them in the face with a wet flounder ( Guy Dimmond you know who you are you sham! )

Fay M's Evening Standard guide is worth picking up and her opinions are usually pretty sound. You can read many of them on http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/html/food/ea...top_direct.html

This is a pretty decent site in general apart from when you have to read the pathetic ramblings of that know nothing arriviste Nick Foulkes.

Hope this helps and welcome to civilisation

S

[Tonyfinch]

I think the Time Out guide is far and away the best ,and certainly the most comprehensive,for a general restaurant guide. Its reviews are concise,well focused and ,I've always found,generally pretty accurate. It's especially strong on ethnic cuisines. I think it comes out each October so you may want to wait for the new one before buying.

The Rough Guide to London Restaurants is well written-Charles Campion is a very positive and enthusiastic food writer-but is naturally limited by the tastes and preferences of one man.

Zagat's and Hardens are a waste of time.

As for national guides, The Which? Good Food Guide has had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the era of ethnic restaurants ,but its reviews are extremely informative and as detailed as you could wish. The Michelin guide is OK for French/European, useless for ethnic.

For pubs the best bet for drinking pubs is the CAMRA Good Beer Guide. I'm not sure what the best guide is for eating in pubs,though.

[Gavin Convery]

An interesting subject which no doubt will divide members.

Your options are:

Michelin Red Guide (London and Great Britain guides available)

Good Food Guide (covers the whole of the UK - used to be reliable, now??)

AA Restaurant Guide (covers the whole of the UK)

Timeout Guide (London only)

Harden's guide(different versions mostly London-centric, a cheap eats version available- in the Zagat format)

Zagats

Rough Guide (covers London - never used it myself)

Egullet.com - the best and most informed!

Personally I either use the Good Food Guide or Timeout guide - as Simon says the TO guide covers London comprehensively and has a lot of write-ups from high-end to low-end. I disagree with Simon as I think some of their views are accurate - but that's probably only when they concur with my own

In terms of saving the pounds, that is the difficult part. In some ways the higher end restaurants can often be better value than the lower end ones because you are more certain of what you are going to get. But a pertinent question on this board will provoke a flurry of answers.

Welcome to London!

[Andy Lynes]

I have found that no single guide is reliable enough. I have disagreed quite strongly with markings awarded, and even the inclusion of some establishments in The Good Food Guide, The AA and Hardens.

Having said that, Hardens guide is very handy for names and numbers (but very similar in format to the Zagat which you dislike, the Good Food Guide has the most text per restaurant (whether or not you could call it all innformed opinion is another matter) and The AA is quite a good "control" to check if there is a consensus across the board.

There have been threads on this board relating to all the areas you are interested in, so if you are lucky with the search facility you should find what you are looking for.

However, if members would be kind enough, perhaps posting your top three choices in each of Andrews categories here on this thread might be helpful.

I will consider my choices and post something a bit later today.

[peterpumkino]

First of all "Zagat's and Hardens are a waste of time" - that's extremely close-minded to say the least!! (typical of the author). They are both quite good but not the Holy Grail.

Also rather than spend a veritable fortune why not try the library. First of all you can get a library card with little more than a letter addressed to you (by yourslef?) and secondly you can always pop in for a reference.

I do agree that this site is also good but do take care!!!!!!!!!!

Also weekly articles by Jan Moir (Saturdays Daily Telegraph), Jay Raynor (Observer on Sunday) and AA Gill (Sunday Times) are excellent up-to-the-minute references. The AA Gill recommendation will create lots of derision from some of our least broad-minded contributors however, apart from the fact he is very funny (in my opinion as well as thousands of Sunday Times readers - otherwise he wouldn't be there Tony) but informative. Have a look at this Sundays review of Petrus and you'll see it's good, very good.:

Quote deleted by co-ordinator for copyright reasons, to be replaced by a link to the original article by Peterpumkino if he chooses so to do.

[Andy Lynes]

Peter - could you edit the above post to delete the lengthy quote and provide a link to the original article please due to potential copyright issues. Thanks.

[Thomas Secor]

The Good Pub Guide has been invaluable to me on travels around England and Wales (it has a brief section on London, which also names some top places, but you might find these without the guide). Although not every place mentioned is top notch, I have found that every place I have been to which received special mention in the guide, was well worth travelling out of the way for. In addition, it generally indicates the beer on offer, so if you are looking for something in particular, or just something you havent had before, you can get that info before arriving to find out that you are at yet another Youngs Pub (not to knock Youngs, which is a fine, fine brewery).

Unlike the CAMRA guide (which is also good), the Good Pub Guide has detailed description of food on offer, indicates whether the pub in question has a developed wine list, and whether it has rooms.

I cannot overstate how helpful this book has been to me. If you are a beer drinker and want to really begin to enjoy what England has to offer I highly recommend it.

By the way, I too agree that the Zagats in London is not very helpful as I have found it much less reliable than the same guides in other cities. When I first arrived in London I somehow ended up with a free subscription to Square Meal magazine, which was helpful in getting the lay of the land, although I am not sure I would pay for it. I also read past threads on food boards. I relied on the Rough Guide to some extent, which is a bit hit and miss, but does review some places that fall below the radar screens of other guides (including the much vaunted Mohsens).

The primary problem I have found in London (as much discussed in other boards) is that it is difficult to find information on local and/or low-end restaurants. I have wrestled with the rationale for a very long time and have no conclusion as to why although you will find more than a few opinions on this and other boards. However, I would keep it in mind, even with respect to the postings on e-gullet.

[Simon Majumdar]

Andrew

For pubs in London, I recently posted the address for a really useful site called

http://www.fancyapint.com/

Check it out. It has become a very valuable resource for those evenings when only oblivion will do

S

[Tonyfinch]

There's the Lonely Planet guide to London restaurants. I don't know it but I assume it focuses more at the middle/lower end in keeping with LP's general policy.

[Bloated]

Zagat, Harden's, Michelin and the AA guide are all available free on-line. I second buying the Time Out Guide and The Good Food Guide...

The Rough Guide claims to be comprehensively rewritten every year but I have compared reviews from earlier years and found them to be the same

Very lazy of them...

[Kikujiro]

Time Out (which I use most; the best admixture of opinion, clarity and breadth of coverage for the capital) and GFG. I'm impressed by the level of consensus you're getting on this.

[edit note: off-topic Sunday Times rant removed; make your own mind up when you get here]

[Tonyfinch]

...

The Rough Guide claims to be comprehensively rewritten every year but I have compared reviews from earlier years and found them to be the same

The intro blurb to The Rough Guide says written and edited by Charles Campion and then credits three others with "additional research and reviews"

Even if all four are reviewing equally its hard to see how they can re-write a fully updated guide every year.

I buy it because I respect Charles Campion as a reviewer. More wit, enthusiam and commitment to restaurants in his little finger that AA Gill has in his whole body.

[Tonyfinch]

New edition of Harden's has Favourite London Restaurant No. 1- The Ivy.

Most Disappointing Cooking No.5-The Ivy

According to the report "nearly 7000 people were asked to rate their best and worst dining experiences for Harden's report". Have you or anyone you know ever been asked?

[Andy Lynes]

I did it for last years guides, got sent the survey again this year, and missed the deadline. Which is a pain, because they send you a free copy if you contribute.

[Andy Lynes]

You can download a press release about the new Hardens guide at www.hardens.com and here's an article in the Independent about their "controversial" comments on Ramsay : Ramsay Rage

[Andy Lynes]

Here's some more from the Evening Standard http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/html/food/ea...top_direct.html.

[John Whiting]

I agree heartily with Tonyfinch about the Time Out Guide. The relevant question is not, "Is it infallible?" but "Is it useful?" I have generally found it so. Some of the reviewers are outstanding -- for instance the Chinese section is in the hands of Fuchsia Dunlop, whose "Sichuan Cookery", published last year, is a modern masterpiece.

[Steve Plotnicki]

The Time Out Guide is the best guide because it has the most extensive listings. However, I used to think they were more discriminating then they are now. I also used to like it better when they published the five best restaurants in each category. It saved me lots of time and it tipped me to places that I might not have chosen if I was left to my own devices. Patog the Persian restaurant on Crawford Place off of the Edgeware Road is one. It was a "Critic's Favorite" a few years back and so I gave it a try. I must have eaten there a dozen times since then and I often get off the day flight from JFK, check into my hotel and head up there for a late dinner. Sometimes lists are very helpful.

[Tonyfinch]

They don't list Critic's Favourites as such but they put red asterisks beside their favourite places in each category.

[Steve Plotnicki]

But they used to list the Top 5 in each category up until two years ago. It was much more useful than the red stars which they also used to include when they had the list.

[andrew_j_craig]

The considerable number of responses which my question elicited only serves to reinforce the point made by some contributors - that eGullet is the best source of informed opinion. All responses gratefully received - thank you.

I won't arrive in London in time for the next eGullet luncheon/dinner but I'll be a keen attendee at the first one of 2003.

[Matthew Grant]

The Time Out Guide is the best guide because it has the most extensive listings. However, I used to think they were more discriminating then they are now. I also used to like it better when they published the five best restaurants in each category. It saved me lots of time and it tipped me to places that I might not have chosen if I was left to my own devices. Patog the Persian restaurant on Crawford Place off of the Edgeware Road is one. It was a "Critic's Favorite" a few years back and so I gave it a try. I must have eaten there a dozen times since then and I often get off the day flight from JFK, check into my hotel and head up there for a late dinner. Sometimes lists are very helpful.

Steve, I agree you on this, Time Out would still be the guide I use most but the reviewers seem too scared of heavily criticising restaurants as they used to. I find the red stars baffling - a quick read through some of the starred restaurants will reveal some distinctly average reviews, however there are several "non-starred" restaurants whose review would lead you to believe that it is the best restaurant in its category.

[John Whiting]

I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect that the red star may not be finally determined by the person who writes the review.

[Tonyfinch]

Time Out would still be the guide I use most but the reviewers seem too scared of heavily criticising  restaurants as they used to.

I agree with that. I'm not at all sure about their criteria for inclusion.A few years ago I wrote and asked them why they'd omitted,for the first time,a restaurant local to me. They replied that they no longer considered it good enough for inclusion. The question then is why do they include restaurants to which they give poor reviews,of which there are many?