Help Me Define the "South"

[BigboyDan]

The South, as a place, is anywhere there was negro slavery.

East Texas food stuffs couldn't be more Southern, with the addition of beef.

[artisan02]

For what it is worth, the James Beard house defines the South as Alabama, Arkansas, Florida (yeah), Louisiana and Mississippi.  They define the Southeast as Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and West Virginia.  They define the Southwest to include Texas and Oklahoma.  Missouri is in the Midwest.  All those border states like Maryland and Virginia belong to the Mid-Atlantic.

Hmmmph!!

Coming into this discussion late.

I wish they would have told me that when I was growing up in Virginia in the 50's and 60's. Never knew I was living in a Mid Atlantic State. As far as I knew, I was born and raised Southern...

When I was a child and in the hospital for a prolonged time, my very southern grandparents made and brought me a sweet potato pie every single week. When I got out, Sunday dinners at their house, were the typical groaning board..with at least fried chicken and a ham anchoring the table.

And to also relate this to the holiday season, at Christmas, we had fruitcakes and wine jelly with boiled custard on the wine jelly. Never saw the wine jelly and boiled custard out of the South...

Maybe this is tradition in other parts of the country, but I really associate this with the South: we went visting in the afternoon, on Christmas. Visited almost everyone we knew...taking presents.staying for punch or eggnog...

I associate Virginia with a "genteel" south...at least in Richmond, where I grew up. I may get some flack for this. I come from an old, old Virginia family (Dabney) and this is what I encountered.

Christine

[Pan]

The South, as a place, is anywhere there was negro slavery.[...]

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Dan, you'd have to give a time frame on that, because there was negro slavery in New York State, too, and no-one would ever call New York part of the South.

[menon1971]

For what it is worth, the James Beard house defines the South as Alabama, Arkansas, Florida (yeah), Louisiana and Mississippi.  They define the Southeast as Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and West Virginia.  They define the Southwest to include Texas and Oklahoma.  Missouri is in the Midwest.  All those border states like Maryland and Virginia belong to the Mid-Atlantic.

Hmmmph!!

Coming into this discussion late.

I wish they would have told me that when I was growing up in Virginia in the 50's and 60's. Never knew I was living in a Mid Atlantic State. As far as I knew, I was born and raised Southern...

When I was a child and in the hospital for a prolonged time, my very southern grandparents made and brought me a sweet potato pie every single week. When I got out, Sunday dinners at their house, were the typical groaning board..with at least fried chicken and a ham anchoring the table.

And to also relate this to the holiday season, at Christmas, we had fruitcakes and wine jelly with boiled custard on the wine jelly. Never saw the wine jelly and boiled custard out of the South...

Maybe this is tradition in other parts of the country, but I really associate this with the South: we went visting in the afternoon, on Christmas. Visited almost everyone we knew...taking presents.staying for punch or eggnog...

I associate Virginia with a "genteel" south...at least in Richmond, where I grew up. I may get some flack for this. I come from an old, old Virginia family (Dabney) and this is what I encountered.

Christine

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Virginius? If so, lovely man. Met him while an intern at the Virginia Historical Society.

[menon1971]

Sorry I missed the first part of this thread.  I am in Minneapolis now but grew up in South Carolina and Tennesee.

There was an article in The Economist shortly before the Atlanta Olympics that asked this same question.  The conclusion they came to was "the South" was approximately the same as the natural range of kudzu.

Not a bad proxy if you think about it.

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Is Kudzu natural?

[artisan02]

I come from an old, old Virginia family (Dabney) and this is what I encountered.

Christine

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Virginius? If so, lovely man. Met him while an intern at the Virginia Historical Society.

←

A very, very distant cousin I think..if that. There was a story that all the Dabneys were descended from 3 brothers who came to this country. I don't know if that is true or not...

[annecros]

Sorry I missed the first part of this thread.  I am in Minneapolis now but grew up in South Carolina and Tennesee.

There was an article in The Economist shortly before the Atlanta Olympics that asked this same question.  The conclusion they came to was "the South" was approximately the same as the natural range of kudzu.

Not a bad proxy if you think about it.

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Is Kudzu natural?

←

It's natural in China and Japan. And is found in the US as far north as Pennsylvania and in the state of Oregan.

Horrible creature, Kudzu.

[jess mebane]

In the spirit of the season, I feel compelled to add that if you have received a family Xmas card with poem, sketch or other piece of art from a dead relative, you're whistlin' in Dixie, friend.

[BigboyDan]

The South, as a place, is anywhere there was negro slavery.[...]

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Dan, you'd have to give a time frame on that, because there was negro slavery in New York State, too, and no-one would ever call New York part of the South.

←

As of 1860, then. Point is that the South as a place is defined by slavery, especially by those states that still had it in 1860. The South as an area, well, Southern culture would define it, food is a part.

[Pan]

The South, as a place, is anywhere there was negro slavery.[...]

←

Dan, you'd have to give a time frame on that, because there was negro slavery in New York State, too, and no-one would ever call New York part of the South.

←

As of 1860, then. Point is that the South as a place is defined by slavery, especially by those states that still had it in 1860. The South as an area, well, Southern culture would define it, food is a part.

←

So is Delaware a Southern state, even though the northernmost part of it is part of the Philadelphia suburban area? I think there are still some gray areas, in both directions. But I agree that your criterion is a good rule of thumb, probably as good or better than any other.

[BigboyDan]

Delaware? Is it still a state? Three counties and all... Anyway, to be official:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_United_States

Also this map is pretty close to defining area; combine the "light-yellow" and the "purple" shaded counties (leave out the "light-yellow" west of Dallas; extend "purple" to Orlando):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Census-...s-by-County.jpg

[Pan]

I find it kind of bizarre that white Southerners seem so apt to identify their ancestors as "Southern" (which gets changed to "American" by the Census Bureau), whereas people in other regions are what I would call more honest about their ancestry. What do you think accounts for this?

[annecros]

I find it kind of bizarre that white Southerners seem so apt to identify their ancestors as "Southern" (which gets changed to "American" by the Census Bureau), whereas people in other regions are what I would call more honest about their ancestry. What do you think accounts for this?

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I think in most cases its muttiness. My ancestors included Griners, Prestons, Mayos, Hills, Wilsons, two we think creek native american ladies who married out of an orphanage in the Carolinas (I am descended from both sisters through two lines), Gilliams, Levy's, Faircloths, Cohens, Hatchers, Gilliams, O'Connels, Boulangers, Nortons, Moores (that's an interesting bunch), and there is even an Arroyo back there somewhere, etc. etc.

If I were to try to be absolutely honest about my ancestry, I would say that I am mostly anglo-saxon originating in the British Isles, but to be even more honest I'm a mutt, considering some of those last names were anglicized from other older family names. As I am related to about half the population of Georgia/Florida/Alabama - I would say that is the norm rather than the exception.

The white gloved ladies of the south are some of the most dedicated and thorough geneologists around - the Mormons being the big dog - but with so many influences and so much intermarriage between ethnicities it is easier to identify with the new region rather than the old world, if that is what you are getting at. Remember that the South opened up rather early on after the "discovery" of the Americas by Europeans, and was utilized as both a penal colony and a refuge for those who were running away either from persecution or prosecution. Some of these people wanted to disappear, I'm sure. Add indentured servants and slaves, and you have one of the oldest melting pots in the country.

It is very evident in the cooking techniques and food choices as well. The one element that seems to be mising is an Asian influence, but you will find some of that in the caribbean and the southern port cities that traded with the caribbean.

[Carrot Top]

I find it kind of bizarre that white Southerners seem so apt to identify their ancestors as "Southern" (which gets changed to "American" by the Census Bureau), whereas people in other regions are what I would call more honest about their ancestry. What do you think accounts for this?

←

The north/south phenomena plays itself out in other countries, too, with some similar results.

One theory I just read (in an academic text, strangely enough) is that in every thing the human mind applies itself to, there must be an "upper" part and a "lower" part. The "upper" part being thought the "better" in the overall conceptualization, the "lower" part having been created by the mind for the singular purpose of segregation of "us" and the "others", making the "others" into something dangerous or different which of course self-mirrors the "better" upper into a reality of a sort (at least within the mind).

Once this labelling occurs of upper/lower (even if it is geographically-based) the thing that has been named lower has a certain burden to bear. One way of bearing a collective burden is to embrace the definition, the naming, as a group, and bear it proudly rather than trying to apologize or hide from the name. Humor and defiance are then used by the group within the ideologic structure that has been created, and an identity group, a culture independent of other things, has been created.

[annecros]

I find it kind of bizarre that white Southerners seem so apt to identify their ancestors as "Southern" (which gets changed to "American" by the Census Bureau), whereas people in other regions are what I would call more honest about their ancestry. What do you think accounts for this?

←

The north/south phenomena plays itself out in other countries, too, with some similar results.

One theory I just read (in an academic text, strangely enough) is that in every thing the human mind applies itself to, there must be an "upper" part and a "lower" part. The "upper" part being thought the "better" in the overall conceptualization, the "lower" part having been created by the mind for the singular purpose of segregation of "us" and the "others", making the "others" into something dangerous or different which of course self-mirrors the "better" upper into a reality of a sort (at least within the mind).

Once this labelling occurs of upper/lower (even if it is geographically-based) the thing that has been named lower has a certain burden to bear. One way of bearing a collective burden is to embrace the definition, the naming, as a group, and bear it proudly rather than trying to apologize or hide from the name. Humor and defiance are then used by the group within the ideologic structure that has been created, and an identity group, a culture independent of other things, has been created.

←

So Southerners self-identify as an ethnic group that they have created due to oppression, regardless of ancestry. Makes sense, pre and post civil war and all. Someone else pointed out to me that Jewish people share the same sort of self deprecating sense of humor.

I think it was a prominent southern African American who pointed out that "In the North, they don't care how high you get, as long as you don't get close. In the South, they don't care how close you get, as long as you don't get high." High as in "uppity" and self-important, rather than high as in sucessful.

I suppose you would have to speak the language to get the twist.

Wish I could remember who said that.

Anyway, it explains the commonality and community of the front porch and cold glass of sweet tea. It's not hard to find a tall glass of water in the south if you're thirsty.

Edited December 20, 2006 by annecros (log)

[Carrot Top]

I think I might want to use the words due "to being shaped a certain way by the larger culture they lived within" rather than "due to oppression", though.

[annecros]

[BigboyDan]

Southerners do think of themselves as American mutts. My father is first generation American from Germany (his parents born in Germany). My mothers parents (one born in Alabama, the other in Mississippi) can trace their ancestry back ten generations American, with every kind of bloodline; their families history emulate American expansion from 1675.

One historical distiction that might be notable is that the South was, for a moment, a self describe state: The Confederate States of America. That means a lot to certain Southerners. For many of them, saying that they are from The South is similar to one saying that one is Welsh, or Bavarian.

Also, one can see others as from certain places for real reasons: I am a Texan, others can see it in me; and I can tell who is a Midwesterner, a Southerner, and especially, who is a Yankee.

[Carrot Top]

Anyway, it explains the commonality and community of the front porch and cold glass of sweet tea. It's not hard to find a tall glass of water in the south if you're thirsty.

←

A tall glass of water is what's offered if the intention is to hopefully clear off that front porch right quick without being straightforward rude. A cold glass of sweet tea means, sit on down for a spell, honey.

............................

Never did see any of those Southern women that were supposed to resemble shrinking violets, either, though I kept my eye out. Not a single one to be found, anywhere.

Edited December 20, 2006 by Carrot Top (log)

[robyn]

I find it kind of bizarre that white Southerners seem so apt to identify their ancestors as "Southern" (which gets changed to "American" by the Census Bureau), whereas people in other regions are what I would call more honest about their ancestry. What do you think accounts for this?

←

The north/south phenomena plays itself out in other countries, too, with some similar results.

One theory I just read (in an academic text, strangely enough) is that in every thing the human mind applies itself to, there must be an "upper" part and a "lower" part. The "upper" part being thought the "better" in the overall conceptualization, the "lower" part having been created by the mind for the singular purpose of segregation of "us" and the "others", making the "others" into something dangerous or different which of course self-mirrors the "better" upper into a reality of a sort (at least within the mind).

Once this labelling occurs of upper/lower (even if it is geographically-based) the thing that has been named lower has a certain burden to bear. One way of bearing a collective burden is to embrace the definition, the naming, as a group, and bear it proudly rather than trying to apologize or hide from the name. Humor and defiance are then used by the group within the ideologic structure that has been created, and an identity group, a culture independent of other things, has been created.

←

So Southerners self-identify as an ethnic group that they have created due to oppression, regardless of ancestry. Makes sense, pre and post civil war and all. Someone else pointed out to me that Jewish people share the same sort of self deprecating sense of humor.

I think it was a prominent southern African American who pointed out that "In the North, they don't care how high you get, as long as you don't get close. In the South, they don't care how close you get, as long as you don't get high." High as in "uppity" and self-important, rather than high as in sucessful.

I suppose you would have to speak the language to get the twist.

Wish I could remember who said that.

Anyway, it explains the commonality and community of the front porch and cold glass of sweet tea. It's not hard to find a tall glass of water in the south if you're thirsty.

←

It's apparently an old proverb (i.e., no one remembers who said it first). I don't happen to think it's true - there's more than a little segregation and racism left in the south (not that the north is any better IMO) - but it's an old proverb.

As for the north/south upper/lower thing - sometimes it works - i.e., the upper is thought to be better (e.g., Italy) - and sometimes it's the reverse (e.g., the UK).

There are still some remnants of self-deprecating Jewish humor - but I think you'll find that younger generations of Jews (including mine - and I'm not so young) - don't find them so amusing these days (except maybe for some vintage Woody Allen). Borat is the new hero (especially in Israel because a lot of his foreign language speaking in the movie is in Hebrew!). Robyn

[BigboyDan]

Here in Texas there is a loooooong tradition of offering a stranger water, especially in Summer, nothing be said even. We say, "Yes Ma'am", and, "No Sir"; and, "Please" and, "Thank you". We can't function without these pleasantries. We wave our hand to each other and say "Hello", rude not to. Also, one offers assistance when another needs it. In the countryside, the offer of food from the kitchen (same with the Mexican and German culture here), "breaking bread and sharing beans" is a very important part of human relations.

And why? The long Summer's heat? Natural openness and friendlyness? Yes. That, and we KNOW that what goes around, comes around.

[annecros]

Anyway, it explains the commonality and community of the front porch and cold glass of sweet tea. It's not hard to find a tall glass of water in the south if you're thirsty.

←

A tall glass of water is what's offered if the intention is to hopefully clear off that front porch right quick without being straightforward rude. A cold glass of sweet tea means, sit on down for a spell, honey.

............................

Never did see any of those Southern women that were supposed to resemble shrinking violets, either, though I kept my eye out. Not a single one to be found, anywhere.

←

Scratch a shrinking violet, and you will find a tiger lily.

[annecros]

Here in Texas there is a loooooong tradition of offering a stranger water, especially in Summer, nothing be said even. We say, "Yes Ma'am", and, "No Sir"; and, "Please" and, "Thank you". We can't function without these pleasantries. We wave our hand to each other and say "Hello", rude not to. Also, one offers assistance when another needs it. In the countryside, the offer of food from the kitchen (same with the Mexican and German culture here), "breaking bread and sharing beans" is a very important part of human relations.h

I

And why? The long Summer's heat? Natural openness and friendlyness? Yes. That, and we KNOW that what goes around, comes around.

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There's nothing wrong with offering a stranger a glass of water on a hot day.

There is no denying the use of words in the South. And you are right, in the rare occaision when you are not verbally acknowledged as existing, you are non verbally acknowledge with eye contact and a nod. Yes, it is rude if you don't do it. It is a shame that the service industry has to explain to some young people that when you are within 10 feet of another human being, you should acknowledge existence of that human being. I was fortunate enough to learn by example.

Southerners are so stigmatized as slow speaking, pig headed, prejudiced and ignorant. It is just as insulting to a Southerner, as it would be to anyone else who is judged solely on the location of their birth. Sure there are bad people in the South. You don't have to tell a Southerner that, we tend to be brutally honest with one another to tell the truth. But being Southern and caucasion doesn't mean you are a bad person. That's just silly and unfair, no matter how a person would choose to defend it. Prejudice is prejudice.

'Course, I just fell off the turnip truck, ya know.

Southerners are prone to that too, playing dumb in order to gain the advantage. It works. It works very well. The self deprecating sense of humor is mostly just dissembling for whomever you are interacting with in order to have time to size them up.

I understand that we speak in code to many who are not Southern - and we seem to catch on to each other's jokes and double meanings quickly, laugh and move on to other topics. That's because we do. It is not out of mean spiritedness, it is simply a matter of community. We know who we are and what we are, and we know it for a fact. We can take it when others think inappropriate thoughts, and even when they verbalize them, and are dignified enough to politely overlook ignorance. Sometimes. If you have been put in your place by a true southern lady, it generally takes anywhere from a few minutes to a couple of hours to figure out you've had the facts of life explained to you - sometimes days. But you never forget it. I know I haven't when the facts have been explained to me.

I would feel welcome if you offered me a tall glass of cold water. I would thank you very much, and ask how you and yours are doing, and am certain I would enjoy passing a bit of the day with you. I'm certain that you would offer me another when I was finished, and that I would politely decline and go on my way, unless something vital or very interesting were being discussed. I'd know where to find another glass of water in the future if I was in need.

That's being Southern. Southerner's understand the literal metaphor in a tall, cold glass of water offered without request or hesitation, and are appreciative of it and graciously accept it, and offer the same consideration to others.

That's just being human, and touching another human life. I have seen it done day in and day out, across every racial-economic-educational-social divide you can imagine. And it happened in the South, and happens there every day.

Facts are facts.

And the food is varied, carefully prepared, and just plain good!

[Pan]

The concept of "Southern" as an ethnicity is interesting, but I don't equate ethnicity or even identity with ancestry. My ancestry, as far as I know, is Jewish with a little Romany thrown in. Geographically, it can be traced to a bunch of parts of Central and Eastern Europe, and also the Caucasus (which I left out before). If you ask me about my identity, right now, I'd say I'm human first, a New Yorker second (New York City, not New York State), and an American third. (But if a time of extreme anti-semitism comes, I'll be Jewish first.) And I am by no means unique among New Yorkers in feeling an identity of "New Yorker" (or for some people, "Brooklynite") strongly, and more strongly than my identity as an American. But that doesn't cause me to say my ancestry is New York.

I do take the point about the "muttiness," though. If you think about it, Ashkenazic as a designation for a Jewish ethnicity (probably the most accurate way for me to describe the bulk of my ancestry) is kind of mutty, too. Ashkenaz means Germany, but Ashkenazim lived throughout most of Europe and have since fled or immigrated to a whole bunch of other countries, picking up all kinds of aspects of local cultures and intermixing their genetic material (both voluntarily and due to rape) with that of some of the non-Jewish locals along the way. In the end, however, we're all "mutts," and all of us are descended from Africans, if you go back far enough. Some of us just have more recent African roots.

I'm not sure how to relate this back to food, but I'm sure one of you will.

Edited December 21, 2006 by Pan (log)

[annecros]

Being from the South, it is not difficult for me to relate anything back to food!

First I'll go all Wiki on ya:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic

From the entry:

"An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith, 1986). Recognition by others as a separate ethnic group, and a specific name for the group, also contribute to defining it. Ethnic groups are also usually united by certain common cultural (behavioural, linguistic and ritual or religious) traits. In this sense, an ethnic group is also a cultural community. Processes that result in the emergence of such a community are summarized as ethnogenesis."

Food is foundational to the Southern culture and cultural practices. It is one of the ethnic markers, after our accent probably, that those on the outside use to identify Southerners as an ethnic group. The "tall glass of water" example cited earlier is a good, simple way of demonstrating this. The glass of water offered to a stranger is more than just a glass of water in the Southern culture. There is a ritual involved and expected behaviour. Using the phrase "tall glass of water" in a sentence has a cultural meaning that other members of the ethnic group immediately recognize and acknowledge, even if it is just with a smile. The food ritual has become linguistic code that remains in the language even when air conditioning has eliminated the need to keep everybody hydrated for survival purposes.

If you want to get really complex, we could talk about the intertwining of food and religion in the South - ritualized food preparation and consumption at funerals, Dinner on the grounds after church. Family reunions are loaded with not only great food - but ritual. "Aunt Grace is asking for you," will send a 60 year old man running to the chair where his elderly aunt is holding court. He'll take a knee, hold her hand, smile and greet her respectfully. The first thing he will ask is if she needs some more tea, or if he can bring her a piece of pie.

That others recognize us as Southern is just as important as our self identification as such in creating an ethnic group. Even you identify a discreet group as Southern, and found a common characteristic that you could use to "mark" them! The Ashkenazic are recognized not only by themselves, but even by the larger ethnic group that they are a subgroup of, because of cultural differences and shared traits.

Food is great ambassador for any peoples, and says a lot about the shared heritage enjoyed by the group.

Now, how this came to be in the south is the result mostly of the physical interaction in the environment of the South (where most of the food belongs) - but much has to be said of the "active" ethogenesis required to unite the South pre-civil war, and the hardships of the civil war and after. The iconography is everywhere - statues, schools, plaques, cemetarys with CSA tombstones. A billion little girls named Bonny (the Bonny Blue Flag, the real standard of the Confederacy) and all those little Lees and Beauregards (both Generals were West Point graduates). In order to survive after the civil war, people had to band together, feed one another, and be kind to one another.

All in my opinion, of course. Excuse me now, while I go fix some biscuits for hubby's breakfast.

Edit to add: My husband just pointed out the "glass of water" concept that carries over into social and reproductive custom, as in "She's a tall drink of water." said admiringly (and quietly so as not to offend) as the lady strolls by two southern guys on the prowl.

Leave it to him.

Edited December 21, 2006 by annecros (log)