Help Me Define the "South"

[slkinsey]

Personally, I'd leave Arkansas off that list. I think the culture there (at least the parts where I've spent time) is more Southwest than South. And, although this does violate the "whole state rule," it's really only the top part of Florida. Much of Florida further down has very little to do with Southern culture.

[Bill Miller]

East Texas is very southern--heavy slave cooking influence along with cajun/creole. Houston/Dallas are infuenced by S/W and cowboy. By the time you get to Austin you have a heavy German, Mexican, Tex-Mex, S/W, brisket and spare ribs infuence. West and south Texas are S/W and Tex-Mex. The Gulf coast is a whole other country.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Bill Miller (log)

[joiei]

Well, some of us are New Yorkers. And we sort of have our own geographical lines. So I'd even count New Jersey, south of what is considered the "tri-state metropolitan area," to be southern. I mean, a lot of those people put vinegar on their French fries!! To me, that's a sure sign that you've entered the south.    Good topic. 

←

Vinegar on fries, I grew up in the far deep south and didn't experience that until I went to areas more inhabited by northerners. Where I was from, people who grew up north of Birmingham were really close to being considered northerners and all. My input on Texas is that my great grandmother went from Mississippi to Itasca, Texas in a covered wagon when she was three years old. Her father, a circuit preacher didn't agree with all that was happening with the Civil War and decided to move his family to where it was safe. My west texas (they had a dairy farm in Coleman then moved to Big Lake) grandmother did not cook with so much of the Mexican influences, but more of her southern roots. She made a killer Chocolate Cream Pie.

[dockhl]

Arkansas ?!?

Southwest ?!?

WTF ?

[shellfishfiend]

Personally, I'd leave Arkansas off that list.  I think the culture there (at least the parts where I've spent time) is more Southwest than South.  And, although this does violate the "whole state rule," it's really only the top part of Florida.  Much of Florida further down has very little to do with Southern culture.

←

I do have to disagree with the exclusion of Arkansas. Having grown up in southern Arkansas and having lived five years in central Arkansas (Little Rock) I think the cuisine screams Southern. All one need do to prove this is go to any church's covered dish supper/potluck and see things like turnip greens, hot water cornbread, sweet potatoe casserole, fried chicken, baked ham, okra and tomatoes, etc. and know that they are without a doubt in the South.

I will admit that this type food was not as prevelant in restaurnats in central Arkansas, though it could be found. However, all it took was five minutes of talking to people about what they ate at their gramma's house when they were growing up to know they were Southern.

Edited October 31, 2006 by shellfishfiend (log)

[joiei]

Drive through the Delta region anywhere and about the only southwest you will find is taco bell. Even up in the Ozarks, they have very little in common with anything southwest. Some of the finest church BBQ I have ever had was at the King Biscuit Blues Festival in Helena Arkansas which is south of Memphis on the Mississippi River. And when I have been in Heber Springs, catfish dinners are much more easily found than foods inspired by Coyote Cafe. So my vote for Arkansas is that it fits the bill as a Southern Foods State.

[FistFullaRoux]

Kentucky, yes, if you are counting the Carolinas. Which you should. Arkansas should absolutely be in the list. Texas and Oklahoma are sticking points. True, there is more of a western/midwestern influence there, but the cowboy cooking of the west and the fact that now just about anything can be found anywhere eliminate the argument.

That does not mean that I think Iowa or Oregon should be part, but the base is still there. "Southern food" is inclusive of everything from Low Country, Cajun, burgoo, chicken fried steak, tomatoes as big as your head, and chili con carne. The traditions of the place matter more than geography, I think.

My list certainly includes South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina, Oklahoma, and Kentucky.

Note the lay of some of these lands, though. You have everything from warm weather sea coasts that never freeze to the Appalachian Mountains where is gets and stays cold as a bugger all winter. Native products vary wildly.

No.  Cowboy food is not Southern food. 

I think most people from Texas would agree that, with respect to culture and cuisine, Texas is a region unto itself.

←

Then why is chicken fried steak just as at home in Atlanta as it is in Austin? You can't really draw a dividing line at the Texas border as the hill country and SE Texas (Houston, Port Arthur, Orange and as far south as Galveston) have considerable Cajun influence, as well as it's own BBQ traditions. Texas is so damn big that it really has to be split up. It has it's own regions as well.

Edited October 31, 2006 by FistFullaRoux (log)

[ludja]

I think that West Virginia is definately Southern in terms of its foods. I don't see the reason not to include states that are partially Southern in character like Texas and Maryland especially if they have distinctive Southern food traditions.

Kentucky home of Bourbon, Derby Pie and Burgoo... sounds southern to me--as do the people's accents of Kentucky and WVa. And regarding Arkansas, I thought Bill Clinton is considered a Southern president...

Map of southern stetes from Wikipedia: click

This includes Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Kentucky,West Virginia and Maryland. Not all the south is the deep south...

Edited October 31, 2006 by ludja (log)

[ludja]

The Southern Food Alliance (SFA) had a whole symposium on Southern Appalachian cuisine including West Virgina: Click

Ronny Lundy's books on Southern and Southern Appalachian cooking are good sources of information.

[FistFullaRoux]

Part of the controversy (if I can call it that) of including some of these areas is that what many people think of as a "Southern Tradition" are really the same survival tools that other parts of the country used. Smoking, canning, and salting are done across the country, the difference being the ingredients used. Everyone braises big tough hunks of meat, everyone stretches the garden as far as it can possibly go, and everyone expects good behavior at the dinner (or supper) table. This can actually be expanded to a worldwide issue. Some things, like food, are universal. The traditions are similar wherever you go. What they do with fish in one part of the world is the same thing they do to pork in others.

I really do think (having lived in Dallas and Austin) that Texas, at least parts of it, should be included. The climate of east Texas is far different than west Texas. The only thing universal in Texas is a Mexican influence and the two letters before the zip code in thier address.

Edited to add: Alternatively, you can simply take the areas that think that the SEC is the toughest football conference in the country.

Now, if you want to define the "Deep South", then you only include states which had plantations and grits. You must have both, and no more than 50% of your border can be coastline. That's Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee and the Carolinas.

Edited October 31, 2006 by FistFullaRoux (log)

[menon1971]

... the food of a friend who grew up in east Texas certanly sounds very Southern.

That kind of goes along with what I said above about areas in other states that are just on the other side of the states I defined as "the South." There's definitely some bleedover. But I think I'm safe in suggesting that Texas, as a whole, doesn't belong in the same cultural/cuisine continuity the way that Louisiana and North Carolina do -- despite the fact that Louisiana and North Carolina are much further apart.

Well, I spent some time in Arlington, TX back when I was single, young, and still had a fire in my belly.

I had the priviledge of being courted by the epitome of Southern Gentlemen, Bill who worked at the Bomber Plant. Robert E. Lee himself would have felt rude in his presence. Culturally, he and his friends and the majority of those I met (including Mexicans, who if thier forebears are Mexican "Indians" are truly Native to the American Continent) were uniformly slow speaking and absolutely old fashioned in their manner.

Hmm. I've been to the Dallas/Fort Worth area a number of times, and never thought it had anything that reminded me of what I think of as "Southern culture" as it would be found in e.g., Georgia or Tennessee.

←

What is that all that similar between LA and NC? I think there is as much diversity in "Southern" cuisine as there is any other region. I personally would find it hard to essentialize southern food.

[Carrot Top]

I think that West Virginia is definately Southern in terms of its foods. 

←

Agreed, with proofs presented if demanded.

[menon1971]

I think that West Virginia is definately Southern in terms of its foods. 

←

Agreed, with proofs presented if demanded.

←

All I can say is Tudor's Biscuit World: sausage gravy, white beans and onions served with cornbread. Nothing like tucking into that after a day of hiking.

They also, based on their availability in WV and KY supermarkets, really like frogs legs, something they share with folks in the Northern Midwest and Canada.

[menon1971]

Part of the controversy (if I can call it that) of including some of these areas is that what many people think of as a "Southern Tradition" are really the same survival tools that other parts of the country used. Smoking, canning, and salting are done across the country, the difference being the ingredients used. Everyone braises big tough hunks of meat, everyone stretches the garden as far as it can possibly go, and everyone expects good behavior at the dinner (or supper) table. This can actually be expanded to a worldwide issue. Some things, like food, are universal. The traditions are similar wherever you go. What they do with fish in one part of the world is the same thing they do to pork in others.

I really do think (having lived in Dallas and Austin) that Texas, at least parts of it, should be included. The climate of east Texas is far different than west Texas. The only thing universal in Texas is a Mexican influence and the two letters before the zip code in thier address.

Edited to add: Alternatively,  you can simply take the areas that think that the SEC is the toughest football conference in the country.

Now, if you want to define the "Deep South", then you only include states which had plantations and grits. You must have both, and no more than 50% of your border can be coastline. That's Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee and the Carolinas.

←

VA had plantations and grits and some have argued that "below the James [river] lies Dixie."

[Pontormo]

Mike: Doesn't this remind you of some of the discussions over in the regional cooking threads in the Italian forum? That is, in terms of diversity within a single culture whose parts share traits.

When I moved to St. Louis, I was surprised to find just how Southern the culture was, including the food. I am not just talking big city, where a bus will pick up when you catch the driver's attention in between stops and it's safe to put on the brakes. A friend with relatives out in the gorgeous rural boonies took me to the country where the T-day fare was about as Southern as I've eaten.

Washington, D.C. is Southern even if it's filled with Yanks and midwesterners and Ethiopians, Peruvians and Salvadorans. Built on a swamp. Ribs. Buttermilk in pints as well as quarts and pig's feet at Safeway and Giant, even if these two supermarkets aint no Piggly Wiggly.

Edited October 31, 2006 by Pontormo (log)

[menon1971]

Mike:  Doesn't this remind you of some of the discussions over in the regional cooking threads in the Italian forum?  That is, in terms of diversity within a single culture whose parts share traits.

When I moved to St. Louis, I was surprised to find just how Southern the culture was, including the food.  I am not just talking big city, where a bus will pick up when you catch the driver's attention in between stops and it's safe to put on the brakes.  A friend with relatives out in the gorgeous rural boonies took me to the country where the T-day fare was about as Southern as I've eaten.

Washington, D.C. is Southern even if it's filled with Yanks and midwesterners and Ethiopians, Peruvians and Salvadorans.  Built on a swamp.  Ribs.  Buttermilk in pints as well as quarts and pig's feet at Safeway and Giant, even if these two supermarkets aint no Piggly Wiggly.

←

I lived in D.C. and agree that it is in may ways the Northern most Southern city, but where are there good ribs and who is eating the pig's feet?

[ludja]

Part of the controversy (if I can call it that) of including some of these areas is that what many people think of as a "Southern Tradition" are really the same survival tools that other parts of the country used. Smoking, canning, and salting are done across the country, the difference being the ingredients used. Everyone braises big tough hunks of meat, everyone stretches the garden as far as it can possibly go, and everyone expects good behavior at the dinner (or supper) table. This can actually be expanded to a worldwide issue. Some things, like food, are universal. The traditions are similar wherever you go. What they do with fish in one part of the world is the same thing they do to pork in others.

I really do think (having lived in Dallas and Austin) that Texas, at least parts of it, should be included. The climate of east Texas is far different than west Texas. The only thing universal in Texas is a Mexican influence and the two letters before the zip code in thier address.

Edited to add: Alternatively,  you can simply take the areas that think that the SEC is the toughest football conference in the country.

Now, if you want to define the "Deep South", then you only include states which had plantations and grits. You must have both, and no more than 50% of your border can be coastline. That's Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee and the Carolinas.

←

VA had plantations and grits and some have argued that "below the James [river] lies Dixie."

←

And then, Maryland had slave plantations and has grits as well... The Chesapeake Bay Cookbook by John Shields has a good overview of traditional dishes there.

[onrushpam]

Hello y'all!

This is my first post on Egullet... I just had to weigh in on this one!

I lived most of my early life in the Show Me State. Any time you discuss North vs South, you need to remember, Missouri was the only divided state during the "War of Northern Aggression". During the Civil War, Missouri had two duly-elected state governments. As a result, it remains a state divided by culture and cuisine.

Excepting two frigid years spent in Omaha (a city I learned to love), I have been a GRITS girl all my life. After our time in Omaha, I told my husband I wanted to live where Spanish moss hangs from the trees and the sun shines white in the summer, gold in the winter. I got my wish! We live with our six greyhounds in far South Georgia, where it is "summer camp" all year long. My freezer is full of butter beans, pink-eye peas and peaches. We'll eat Thanksgiving dinner on the screened porch. We now live in the DEEP South!

My childhood home in the Southern half of Missouri is definitely part of the South!

I grew up with the joys of summer days when Grandpa brought me rich, ripe strawberries in the crown of his big straw hat. My Grandma taught me the wonders of fresh shelled English peas, munched raw, right out of their bright green pods and long-cooked pole beans with just the right number of "shelly beans" floating in the rich bacony broth. I savored sweet corn cooked minutes after we'd torn the cobs from their stalks. She taught me to make pillowy biscuits, smothered in gravy, lucsious with her own homemade sausage.

Please don't leave Missouri out when you define "South"!

Pam (a/k/a the crazy greyhound lady)

[Carrot Top]

Y'all join in now. . .to the tune of "Okie from Muskogee". . .

We don't mess with "polenta" in West Virginny

Sundays we cook creasy greens n' beans

Our apples pies are fried up really pretty

And honey, we admire Paula Deen.

Grits for breakfast rather than pertaters

That fish you see ain't gonna hit no grill

Country ham don't get all that much greater

Than when its served with pickles, fried (that's dill).

[annecros]

So where are we? Is this the consensus?:

South Carolina

Mississippi

Florida

(living in South Florida personally, while the retirees have quite an influence and I can go Kosher or Vietnamese two blocks from my home, there are still some crackers down here that are decidedly southern. My meat market does a frisky business in Hog Maws and Chitlins')

Alabama

Georgia

Louisiana

Texas

(at the very least eastern Texas)

Virginia

West Virginia

Southern Maryland

(Baltimore area for sure, but doesn't it turn into Pennsylvania fare further inland?)

District of Columbia

Arkansas

Tennessee

North Carolina

Missouri

Kentucky

(Come on, Colonel Sanders and Bourbon?)

I am sure there are fuzzy borders all over. This is a great discussion, thanks NYCMike.

Anne

Edit to add: Would someone from Oklahoma speak up one way or another?

Edited October 31, 2006 by annecros (log)

[NYC Mike]

What is that all that similar between LA and NC? I think there is as much diversity in "Southern" cuisine as there is any other region. I personally would find it hard to essentialize southern food.

Mike: Doesn't this remind you of some of the discussions over in the regional cooking threads in the Italian forum? That is, in terms of diversity within a single culture whose parts share traits.

It reminds me exactly of what's been going on in the Italy forums since Kevin did his year long tour. To say "Italian" food isn't enough by a longshot, I never use that term anymore, even saying "Northern" or "Southern" isn't enough. It may be one country name but drive an hour in any direction and the culinary landscape changes completly based on any number of factors.

This is one of the things that interests us about the South, it has that wide ranging and unexact diversity. I expect that The Junior League cookbook in Atlanta is going to be different that the one from Valdosta and different from Macon or Augusta and we haven't even left Georgia yet.

-mike

Edited October 31, 2006 by NYC Mike (log)

[Lan4Dawg]

Mike if we can answer that question we will put about a thousand sociologists out of jobs. And since I apparently started this argument I thought I should add to it.

Just to be argumentative (edited to add as Scott said): Why is there a "South"? Is there a "north"? What does food in Appalachia have in common w/ food fr/ New Orleans? yet both are considered Southern. Can you get a great Philly Cheese Steak sandwich in NYC? yet both Philly and NYC are considered northern but are completely separate. Feuds greater than your standard fist fight have been started over whether or not barbecue in western North Carolina is any more "barbecue" than that of eastern North Carolina and we are talking about a single state. Add to that the fact that the very term "barbecue" means a half-dozen distinct types of meats depending on where you are and that does not even include the myriad variations of barbecue sauce. Brunswick Stew in Brunswick, Georgia is some what different fr/ Brunswick Stew in Brunswick, Virginia yet both lay claim to having originated the dish and both bear a marked resemblance to the Burgoo of Kentucky. Is a low-country boil the same as a "Frogmore Stew"? Despite their similarities many will claim they are vastly different yet their roots are very similar.

All of that being said I would suggest that "the South" and b/c this is on e-Gullet I am going to assume we are talking Southern food as opposed to other "Southernisms"--and this is fr/ a Southern boys' perspective--is any area that employed slaves (not necessarily for cotton but also rice, indigo, &c) and therefore found much of its food influenced by not only what was available but also fr/ an African (read slave) style of cooking and such influence lasts to this day in its regional dishes is "Southern". That area would include parts of Maryland, some of Deleware, most of the Carolinas, much of Georgia, the northern part of Florida, a great part of 'bama, almost all of Mississippi and Louisiana, parts of Arkansas, the western area of Tennessee and Kentucky (btw a little history lesson for Pam as both of those states also had two gov'ts during the WBTS), and the eastern area of Texas as well as lower Illinois, Ohio, and Indiana and much of Missouri. Parts that should not be included would be the lower portion of Florida (not even settled yet), most of Appalachia (a region unto its own), western Texas and the Ozarks (see Appalachia); geographically they are in the "South" but are separate entities.

Does that confuse things even more?

As for my original post---"rat trap cheese" can be found any where in the US and is more than likely fr/ Wisconsin (at least now). Any type of strong hoop cheddar was called "rat trap" b/c it was smelly enough to attract rats to the traps. I have no idea if this is specifically Southern but that was how we referred to any strong hoop cheese when I was young as that is what the Rev called it. Now that begs the question: is the food "Southern" or is it the terminology?

HDHD

Edited October 31, 2006 by Lan4Dawg (log)

[joiei]

Hello y'all!

This is my first post on Egullet...  I just had to weigh in on this one!

I lived most of my early life in the Show Me State.  Any time you discuss North vs South, you need to remember, Missouri was the only divided state during the "War of Northern Aggression".  During the Civil War, Missouri had two duly-elected state governments.  As a result, it remains a state divided by culture and cuisine.

Excepting two frigid years spent in Omaha (a city I learned to love), I have been a GRITS girl all my life.  After our time in Omaha, I told my husband I wanted to live where Spanish moss hangs from the trees and the sun shines white in the summer, gold in the winter.  I got my wish!  We live with our six greyhounds in far South Georgia, where it is "summer camp" all year long.  My freezer is full of butter beans, pink-eye peas and peaches.  We'll eat Thanksgiving dinner on the screened porch.  We now live in the DEEP South!

My childhood home in the Southern half of Missouri is definitely part of the South! 

I grew up with the joys of summer days when Grandpa brought me rich, ripe

strawberries in the crown of his big straw hat.   My Grandma taught me the wonders of fresh shelled English peas, munched raw, right out of their bright green pods and long-cooked pole beans with just the right number of "shelly beans" floating in the rich bacony broth.  I savored sweet corn cooked minutes after we'd torn the cobs from their stalks.   She taught me to make pillowy biscuits, smothered in gravy, lucsious with her own homemade sausage.

Please don't leave Missouri out when you define "South"!

Pam (a/k/a the crazy greyhound lady)

←

Welcome to the fray, onrushpam, and we appreciate your input. I was just wondering where Jaymes was (to give us a voice of southern Missouri) then remembered she was off galavanting around Mexico on an RV Train. From your descriptions, it sounds like we all would of enjoyed meeting your grandmother.

Edited October 31, 2006 by joiei (log)

[menon1971]

Mike if we can answer that question we will put about a thousand sociologists out of jobs.  And since I apparently started this argument I thought I should add to it.

Just to be argumentative (edited to add as Scott said):  Why is there a "South"?  Is there a "north"?  What does food in Appalachia have in common w/ food fr/ New Orleans? yet both are considered Southern.  Can you get a great Philly Cheese Steak sandwich in NYC? yet both Philly and NYC are considered northern but are completely separate.  Feuds greater than your standard fist fight have been started over whether or not barbecue in western North Carolina is any more "barbecue" than that of eastern North Carolina and we are talking about a single state.  Add to that the fact that the very term "barbecue" means a half-dozen distinct types of meats depending on where you are and that does not even include the myriad variations of barbecue sauce.  Brunswick Stew in Brunswick, Georgia is some what different fr/ Brunswick Stew in Brunswick, Virginia yet both lay claim to having originated the dish and both bear a marked resemblance to the Burgoo of Kentucky.  Is a low-country boil the same as a "Frogmore Stew"?  Despite their similarities many will claim they are vastly different yet their roots are very similar.       

All of that being said I would suggest that "the South" and b/c this is on e-Gullet I am going to assume we are talking Southern food as opposed to other "Southernisms"--and this is fr/ a Southern boys' perspective--is any area that employed slaves (not necessarily for cotton but also rice, indigo, &c) and therefore found much of its food influenced by not only what was available but also fr/ an African (read slave) style of cooking and such influence lasts to this day in its regional dishes is "Southern".  That area would include parts of Maryland, some of Deleware, most of the Carolinas, much of Georgia, the northern part of Florida, a great part of 'bama, almost all of Mississippi and Louisiana, parts of Arkansas, the western area of Tennessee and Kentucky (btw a little history lesson for Pam as both of those states also had two gov'ts during the WBTS), and the eastern area of Texas as well as lower Illinois, Ohio, and Indiana and much of Missouri.  Parts that should not be included would be the lower portion of Florida (not even settled yet), most of Appalachia (a region unto its own), western Texas and the Ozarks (see Appalachia); geographically they are in the "South" but are separate entities. 

Does that confuse things even more? 

As for my original post---"rat trap cheese" can be found any where in the US and is more than likely fr/ Wisconsin (at least now).  Any type of strong hoop cheddar was called "rat trap" b/c it was smelly enough to attract rats to the traps.  I have no idea if this is specifically Southern but that was how we referred to any strong hoop cheese when I was young as that is what the Rev called it.  Now that begs the question:  is the food "Southern" or is it the terminology? 

HDHD

←

Not to get too mystical here, but could there be a agreed upon spirit to what defines Southern food? Something like a worldview, a philosophy, or ethos? What do you all/y'all think?

[ludja]

...

  Maybe we should draw a Fried Pickle/Grits line.

←

Here's an article featuring a description of the Southern Foodways Alliance (SFA) and some discussion of what and where is "Southern" food. click

They have a "grits line" map in the article. I didn't realize grits were popular over so much of Texas.... The grits line includes the southern tip of some states like Missouri and Illinois; it exclues the southern two thirds of Florida.