Dining Talk 2002

[Stone]

Obviously, SF is the best foodie town in the country.  Sure one might be able to get a better meal in the best NY restaurant over the best SF restaurant, but in terms of culinary culture as a whole, SF is superior

I don't understand how you can say this. Sure, there is great food here, and I also don't understand how someone can say that they can't get a great meal in SF. But at every price/style range, NY has more variety.

There are only about three menus floating around SF. There's the seared ahi tuna with mango chutney menu (which Fat Guy describes as adding an Asian influence whether it needs it or not); the comfort food of double cut pork chop, short ribs and pureed tubor; and . . . well, that's about it. Other than Fleur D'Lys, Danko and a few others, most of the menus in town are geared towards 20-something post-grads who, up until two years ago, thought that wearing a goatee and riding a scooter made them way cool.

You can't get a decent burger or sandwich in this town. There is no such thing as a deli here. Pizza is an afterthought. High end dining means that you don't wear sandals and leave your dirty fleece in the back of your Subaru outback.

SF does win in the burrito area.

[VivreManger]

I got to go for physical therapy for my back which is why I can indulge in this thread for awhile.

ORIENTAL and not just Ahi Tuna.

Slanted Door, Delfina, to mention a few.

However I must rush off for now.

[Stone]

Slanted Door

I win.

(I have been to Delfina, and it was great. As I said, there is a lot of very good and great food in SF. It just doesn't compare with the variety in NY.)

Edited December 17, 2002 by Dstone001 (log)

[VivreManger]

Perhaps the grass is greener, on the other coast.

NY deli is a genre onto itself, but I have to argue that Montreal deli is superior. Smoked Meat is the best of pastrami and corned beef combined and I have even eaten at Lou Siegel's before it closed.

I have not eaten enough NY pizza to offer a considered judgment, but New Haven is certainly comparable or better and Satarpio's thin-crust pizza in East Boston, right near Logan Airport, is almost good enough to schedule a lay-over in Beantown.

However I have to confess that I prefer the range and variety of oriental foods available in SF to both of those distinguished cuisines.

Another issue is price-quality and cuisine consciousness as an element of civic identity. Food is more important for SF than it is for NY.

Last, there is the problem of practical access, convenience, and per capita scale. How many SFs can we fit into a NY subway car. Given the size of NY, it is a tribute to SF that the issue of the smaller city's food culture can even be raised in the same paragraph as the Empire City.

Person for person, acre for acre, SF beats NYC.

My Vietnamese SF vegan baker-friend disses Slanted Door as the kind of food he can eat at home so why bother, but.... Slanted Door does grill an excellent brontzini.

I won't claim victory. That is for others to judge. (If they want to bother with my nonsense!!)

[Stone]

interesting.

And believe me, your nonsense is no worse than most of the nonsense i have to put up with on this site. (added the hated emoticon to ensure that the new friend knows I'm kidding.)

Santarpios in East Boston is great, and during one layover I took a cab over for dinner. (The crust is a little dry and tasteless for my liking. But otherwise great pizza, grilled sausage and character.)

Edited December 18, 2002 by Dstone001 (log)

[Mebutter]

By the way, Butter Man,  -- perhaps you could host the first San Francisco eGullet dinner when you get out here?

I just might take you up on this...It would be great to meet new faces with an appreciation and/or capacity for eating and drinking.

Again, I'd like to thank everyone for their spirited advice and recommendations. This is all very helpful....

Bill Daley

p.s. I don't want to trigger another fight but I agree completely about the relative lack of spark in NYC pizza. New Haven pizza totally rules, whether you're talking Pepe's or Sally's or even Jerry's in Middletown with its White Sicilian that has to be ordered 2 hours in advance. And I love Connecticut's pork/beef hotdogs with skins to NYC's brassy beef weiners.

Edited December 18, 2002 by Mebutter (log)

[Stone]

As long as the Chronicle's picking up the tab, you can be as wrong as you'd like.

(And again, I would recommend Slanted Door for the event -- because it is one of SF's most reknowned and loved restaurants, yet also one of its most derided.)

Edited December 18, 2002 by Dstone001 (log)

[KarenS]

Hhmm....Peets Coffee, In and Out Burgers, Berkeley Bowl, Chez Pannise, Masas, Delphina, Bay Bread (on Pine), One Market, Home, Crustacean, Lark Creek Inn, The Fifth Floor, Scala's Bistro, THE MISSION DISTRICT! Mexican, El Salvadorean, Guatamalan, Peruvian, Brazilian.... Burritos, pampulsas, tacos, enchiladas, tortillas, agua fresca... The Marin County Farmer's market- I love it!

Michael Bauer... not too hot on my list.

[mogsob]

The question is not whether SF is the best foodie city in the country, but whether it is even the best foodie city in its state.

1. There is not a single SF restaurant that can compare with ADNY, Daniel, Bouley, Lespinasse, Jean Georges or Le Bernardin.

2. Even at the next level, SF may have 2 or 3 competitors at most, while NY has Cafe Boulud, Gramercy Tavern, Gotham Bar & Grill, March, Chanterelle, Lutece, Nobu, Union Pacific, Veritas and so on. Indeed, if any of these restaurants moved to SF, it would likely be universally declared the best restaurant in SF.

3. For all the vaunted Asian food in SF, I have yet to find a decent sushi place. Certainly nothing on the level of Sushi Yasuda or Karumazushi.

4. SF does not have a single decent steakhouse. Not one. While there is no need to list all of the great NY steakhouses, Peter Luger, Old Homestead, Sparks should do.

5. While there may be good Mexican food in SF, I've not had any good upscale versions. I'll take Rosa Mexicano over anything SF can offer.

6. Scandavian? NY has Aquavit. Italian? How about Il Mulino, Babbo, Lupa, Esca, Scalinatella, Il Postino, Il Nido, Il Buco.

7. Casual restaurants? NY has Etats Unis, Tocqueville, Blue Hill, Annisa, Savoy and I'm just getting warmed up here.

That's not even counting the numerous French, Chinese, Indian and god knows what else NY can offer that SF just can't.

You may have grown up in New England, but you don't know NY for squat.

[VivreManger]

You signed it best yourself.

De Gustibus non est Disputandum

Nuff said.

[mogsob]

VivreManger -- can't back up your ludicrous position? How about listing the Top 100 restaurants in SF. And I don't mean Berkeley or Napa. Just the city of SF. My guess is that of those, maybe 2 or 3 would crack NY's top 100.

[hollywood]

VivreManger -- can't back up your ludicrous position?  How about listing the Top 100 restaurants in SF.  And I don't mean Berkeley or Napa.  Just the city of SF.  My guess is that of those, maybe 2 or 3 would crack NY's top 100.

This isn't exactly what you asked for, but it's the Chronicle's list of top 100 in the Bay Area.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...2/06/FD100Z.DTL

[MsRamsey]

This isn't exactly what you asked for, but it's the Chronicle's list of top 100 in the Bay Area.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...2/06/FD100Z.DTL

I wonder if there's a newer Chronicle Top 100 list. This one's almost 3 years old. I'd love to print out a newer list and keep it for reference in my SF tourist file.

[mogsob]

Thanks, Hollywood. This list confirms a few things:

1. Some of the very best restaurants in SF are located miles away from what is actually SF. How can The French Laundry be considered a SF restaurant? Ditto Chez Panisse.

2. There are about only about 2 or 3 SF restaurants that are world class.

3. There is little ethnic food in SF when compared with NY.

Laughable, really.

[Jason Perlow]

There is not a single SF restaurant that can compare with ADNY, Daniel, Bouley, Lespinasse, Jean Georges or Le Bernardin.

Laurent Gras (click) at 5th floor is extremely talented and it would compete well with any of those places if it was based in NY. But I dont think it counts as a SF restaurant. Its a NY restaurant in a SF dimensional warp.

SF does not have a single decent steakhouse. Not one

Harris' Steakhouse on Van Ness. Definitely comparable with any of the places you mentioned with perhaps the exception of Luger, although now that I recall my meal there about a year ago I think that if Luger does anything better than Harris it might be a few of their side dishes. But their aged beef is just as good, evidenced by what is in their viewable aging room.

[hollywood]

This isn't exactly what you asked for, but it's the Chronicle's list of top 100 in the Bay Area.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...2/06/FD100Z.DTL

I wonder if there's a newer Chronicle Top 100 list. This one's almost 3 years old. I'd love to print out a newer list and keep it for reference in my SF tourist file.

Here's a new column on the state of things in SF with a link to 2001s list of the top 100.

http://www.pheast.com/restaurants/

[Stone]

This is little more than an list of 100 popular restaurants in the Bay Area.

"Antica Trattoria" is an excellent neighborhood Italian place. Excellent. But as someone above would say, it wouldn't be more than a blip in NY.

"AsiaSF" -- it's Lucky Changs (yes, the Chines drag joint.

"Cosmopolitan Cafe" -- think of any place on Park Avenue South where the Advertising Administrative Assistants, First Year Lawyers, and Wall Street Cold-Callers meet after work.

I don't think it's trying to list the best quality restaurants. Different definition of "best."

Although it does remind me of some great places I haven't been to in a while:

Globe

Gordons

Kokkari

Pane e Vino

[mogsob]

Jason, I would comment on the quality of the beef at Harris' but for the fact that they failed the most basic function of a restaurant -- cooking food correctly. I ordered, as I always do, my steak black and blue. It was black alright -- but more like black and grey. They did not take kindly to my objection either.

[Jason Perlow]

Jason, I would comment on the quality of the beef at Harris' but for the fact that they failed the most basic function of a restaurant -- cooking food correctly.  I ordered, as I always do, my steak black and blue.  It was black alright -- but more like black and grey.  They did not take kindly to my objection either.

Thats unfortunate, as when I went, it was perfectly medium rare, the way I ordered it.

[hollywood]

Citysearch's view of SF's top 10 new and honorable mentions.

http://bayarea.citysearch.com/roundup/3934...rable%20Mention

Edited December 18, 2002 by hollywood (log)

[Stone]

Citysearch's view of SF's top 10 new and honorable mentions.

http://bayarea.citysearch.com/roundup/3934...rable%20Mention

I don't under stand how Charanga, Slanted Door or Fleur de Lys can be called "new."

rnm is very good. Go. Tell Lisa I say hello.

[KarenS]

Masas is great. Have you heard of the Chef? (Ron Siegal) He was the first American to win the iron chef in Japan. He used to be at Nob Hill- he was enticed to Masas after it was closed and redecorated.

[hollywood]

Citysearch's view of SF's top 10 new and honorable mentions.

http://bayarea.citysearch.com/roundup/3934...rable%20Mention

I don't under stand how Charanga, Slanted Door or Fleur de Lys can be called "new."

rnm is very good. Go. Tell Lisa I say hello.

Man, you've got that clamp thing bad, don't you?

[LESider]

whoa

Mogsob said: "3. There is little ethnic food in SF when compared with NY."

Non existant in NY :

Thai (don't make me jump on the 7 train), Vietnamese, Ethiopian, Mexican, BBQ (ok not ethnic).

(I even think some of the Chinese regional cuisine is underepresented, I'm not the biggest fan of Szechuan)

You'd think in the self proclaimed food capital of the world these cuisines would show up one of these days...

I know I'm still waiting

[mogsob]

Haven't been to a Thai restaurant in the US that was halfway decent, so while I freely admit that NY Thai restaraunts suck, so do SF's. I don't like Vietnamese, so I won't comment there. As for Mexican, while SF may excel at the low end, I think NY has several upscale Mexican restaurants that would blow out anything in SF. There is no good BBQ north of the Mason Dixon line, so it is pointless to compare. As for Ethiopian, let's just say the DC rules the roost there.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that despite being located in the Pacific Northwest, SF can't serve up a halfway decent Japanese restaurant.