NYC Area Foie Gras Ban

[robyn]

This all sounds wonderful - like a campaign speech.

Tell me how to raise citrus so it's not a monoculture crop (that's one crop I happen to know a lot about since there's so much of it in the state). It's not anything like raising lettuce - or tomatoes. The acreage - the trees - and the equipment needed to manage a grove properly (including all that plumbing that might be used a couple of times a year - or maybe every other year - if there's a hard freeze) - is expensive. Is it profitable if done correctly - sure. That's why the name of one of Florida's largest citrus growers is on the University of Florida football stadium.

As for avian flu - perhaps I am remembering wrong - but didn't it start - and haven't the biggest outbreaks - been in parts of Asia where birds *are* in the backyard - or in close proximity to people? Certainly didn't start in a turkey farm in North Carolina.

And no - I really don't remember a tomato that tasted fabulous (except for some I had in California last month - grown maybe 10 miles away from the restaurant - California is very blessed in terms of its climate when it comes to produce - a blessing that few places in the US share). I've lived in Florida for a really long time - and north Florida for a long time. It is simply a lousy place to raise tomatoes (I know - I've tried). And lots of other produce for that matter. So I have to live with tomatoes that can travel long distances to get from where they're raised - to me - or do without. Even the Florida "Ugly Ripes" which have been touted here in the past - were simply ugly this year. The ones that have been best here this year are a variety of plum tomato that I buy in Costco - grown in greenhouses in Canada.

By the way - the grazing cattle that are sent away to feedlots aren't quite on my doorstep (land here is more than a bit too expensive) - but if I drive an hour - I'll see thousands of those cows. Don't know if they were ever finished and slaughtered here in Florida - but it certainly hasn't been a normal thing since I moved here 35 years ago.

I've never met one of these "beef farmers" - but I have met contract chicken people in upstate New York. To suggest that they are somehow inferior in terms of health and safety is - in my opinion - just plain wrong. If they were inferior - they wouldn't have their contracts for too long. Is their chicken the best in the world - no. But they manage to get a lot of decent product to a lot of people at low prices. I just bought a package of chicken breasts at Costco - 6 packs of 2 chicken breasts - each individually sealed - for $14.

Would you rather that the US be like Norway - which isn't a particularly good place to raise chickens - and where a single chicken breast might cost $4? That's a good way to make sure that people of middle or lesser means - families with 3 kids - wind up eating nothing but cheap junk food burgers and fries and pizza.

So yes - you do sound snobbish and precious. My husband and I are a family of 2 with lots of money. We spend perhaps $800/month on groceries (not all of it is those cheap chicken breasts at Costco - and we eat out a lot). Can't imagine what it would be like to try to feed a family of 5 on that budget - but I suspect the average family has to do that - or better - in terms of budget. And people with less money have to be even more frugal. I think the US does a fabulous job of producing decent quality food at prices that people in other parts of the world would die for. Why would you want to limit the choices of average people?

And what do you suggest that I do? That I simply eat stuff that's grown within 100 miles of where I live? I've said it before - that basically puts me on a Russian peasant diet (cabbage and potatoes). I think I will give up a fair amount in terms of perfection to get a more varied diet.

I will note that you are really talking apples and oranges when you try to compare some weekend farmer who raises a couple of tomatoes or heads of lettuce to sell at the local farmer's market with the people who raise more labor/capital intensive things like cattle - citrus - chickens - or houseplants for that matter (Florida is a huge producer of houseplants). Even Niman Ranch is national now. Its bacon is in Publix and I've seen some of its products in Costco. I have nothing against boutique - but it won't work to feed most of the people most of the time at reasonable prices.

Finally - have you ever tried to raise food yourself? You mentioned that you don't have a garden anymore. Why not? I do raise some stuff. Not an awful lot - because not an awful lot will grow where I live. I defy you to raise any citrus without using tons of fertilizer (only thing that I grow is Meyer lemons - because they grow here and are not generally available in stores - my 4 foot tree needs 2 cups of fertilizer every month from March through November). I defy you to keep bugs off crops here without using pesticides (and since I don't use pesticides - too much work - I generally raise more bugs and butterflies than anything else - although I do try to process the basil into pesto before the huge bug assault of late summer - right now - all the herbs that are left are simply caterpillar food). As for tomatoes - sheesh - the one time I tried those - the day the first tomato was ripe - the birds got to them. They had to peck a hole in every tomato to make sure they all tasted the same (birds don't like tomatoes). Anyway - when you actually try to grow stuff - it is a very humbling experience - and gives you a great appreciation of those people who put food on your table at prices that don't bust your budget. Robyn

[menon1971]

This all sounds wonderful - like a campaign speech.

Tell me how to raise citrus so it's not a monoculture crop (that's one crop I happen to know a lot about since there's so much of it in the state).  It's not anything like raising lettuce - or tomatoes.  The acreage - the trees - and the equipment needed to manage a grove properly (including all that plumbing that might be used a couple of times a year - or maybe every other year - if there's a hard freeze) - is expensive.  Is it profitable if done correctly - sure.  That's why the name of one of Florida's largest citrus growers is on the University of Florida football stadium.

As for avian flu - perhaps I am remembering wrong - but didn't it start - and haven't the biggest outbreaks - been in parts of Asia where birds *are* in the backyard - or in close proximity to people?  Certainly didn't start in a turkey farm in North Carolina.

And no - I really don't remember a tomato that tasted fabulous (except for some I had in California last month - grown maybe 10 miles away from the restaurant - California is very blessed in terms of its climate when it comes to produce - a blessing that few places in the US share).  I've lived in Florida for a really long time - and north Florida for a long time.  It is simply a lousy place to raise tomatoes (I know - I've tried).  And lots of other produce for that matter.  So I have to live with tomatoes that can travel long distances to get from where they're raised - to me - or do without.  Even the Florida "Ugly Ripes" which have been touted here in the past - were simply ugly this year.  The ones that have been best here this year are a variety of plum tomato that I buy in Costco - grown in greenhouses in Canada.

By the way - the grazing cattle that are sent away to feedlots aren't quite on my doorstep (land here is more than a bit too expensive) - but if I drive an hour - I'll see thousands of those cows.  Don't know if they were ever finished and slaughtered here in Florida - but it certainly hasn't been a normal thing since I moved here 35 years ago.

I've never met one of these "beef farmers" - but I have met contract chicken people in upstate New York.  To suggest that they are somehow inferior in terms of health and safety is - in my opinion - just plain wrong.  If they were inferior - they wouldn't have their contracts for too long.  Is their chicken the best in the world - no.  But they manage to get a lot of decent product to a lot of people at low prices.  I just bought a package of chicken breasts at Costco - 6 packs of 2 chicken breasts - each individually sealed - for $14.

Would you rather that the US be like Norway - which isn't a particularly good place to raise chickens - and where a single chicken breast might cost $4?  That's a good way to make sure that people of middle or lesser means - families with 3 kids - wind up eating nothing but cheap junk food burgers and fries and pizza.

So yes - you do sound snobbish and precious.  My husband and I are a family of 2 with lots of money.  We spend perhaps $800/month on groceries (not all of it is those cheap chicken breasts at Costco - and we eat out a lot).  Can't imagine what it would be like to try to feed a family of 5 on that budget - but I suspect the average family has to do that - or better - in terms of budget.  And people with less money have to be even more frugal.  I think the US does a fabulous job of producing decent quality food at prices that people in other parts of the world would die for.  Why would you want to limit the choices of average people? 

And what do you suggest that I do?  That I simply eat stuff that's grown within 100 miles of where I live?  I've said it before - that basically puts me on a Russian peasant diet (cabbage and potatoes).  I think I will give up a fair amount in terms of perfection to get a more varied diet.

I will note that you are really talking apples and oranges when you try to compare some weekend farmer who raises a couple of tomatoes or heads of lettuce to sell at the local farmer's market with the people who raise more labor/capital intensive things like cattle - citrus - chickens - or houseplants for that matter (Florida is a huge producer of houseplants).  Even Niman Ranch is national now.  Its bacon is in Publix and I've seen some of its products in Costco.  I have nothing against boutique - but it won't work to feed most of the people most of the time at reasonable prices.

Finally - have you ever tried to raise food yourself?  You mentioned that you don't have a garden anymore.  Why not?  I do raise some stuff.  Not an awful lot - because not an awful lot will grow where I live.  I defy you to raise any citrus without using tons of fertilizer (only thing that I grow is Meyer lemons - because they grow here and are not generally available in stores - my 4 foot tree needs 2 cups of fertilizer every month from March through November).  I defy you to keep bugs off crops here without using pesticides (and since I don't use pesticides - too much work - I generally raise more bugs and butterflies than anything else - although I do try to process the basil into pesto before the huge bug assault of late summer - right now - all the herbs that are left are simply caterpillar food).  As for tomatoes - sheesh - the one time I tried those - the day the first tomato was ripe - the birds got to them.  They had to peck a hole in every tomato to make sure they all tasted the same (birds don't like tomatoes).  Anyway - when you actually try to grow stuff - it is a very humbling experience - and gives you a great appreciation of those people who put food on your table at prices that don't bust your budget. Robyn

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You seem to have missed the environmental argument.

Where is your data on Norway regarding price (and quality)?

I am sympathetic to your concern for the poor, but when is the last time you visited a supermarket in an economially depressed neighborhood? There is considerable body of research indicating a correlation between obesity and poverty. This seems to be due to the abundance of unhealthy foods available to that population, some psychological components of poverty, and a general lack of education. There has to be a balance between making sure that foods are affordable and making sure that everyone can eat as much as they can stomach. The crux is that we consume and waste too much food due to its abundance and low cost. I am not suggesting regulation but perhaps a change in ethos.

[Claudia Greco]

Alan Gerson, NYC downtown councilman, is introducing a ban on foie gras TOMORROW, Tuesday 11/28. For any NYC residents who wish to weigh in, either with Gerson or their own councilman (or, better yet, both), the contact info is below. I'm not prepared to let Ariane and D'Artagnan, the major purveyor of foie to NYC restuarants and consumers, go down without a fight. This will put 120 people out of business and close a long-time, family owned business which has done nothing but bring quality duck, geese, game and truffles to NYC. (Foie gras is only part of their business):

Contact your councilman today at http://www.nyccouncil.info/constituent/

(This site allows you to look up your personal district representatives and get

their email addresses and phone numbers.)

Contact Alan Gerson, email gerson@council.nyc.ny.us today!

Legislative Office Address:

250 Broadway, 18th Floor

NY, NY 10007

Phone No.: (212) 788-7259

Fax No.: (212) 788-7727