Impact of eGullet on Philadelphia Restaurant Scene

[Vadouvan]

This may not be the correct board for this discussion but since it ties into the local restaurant politics, here goes.

Feel free to disagree or add your comments....

As much as I appreciate E-Gullet, I absolutely think it should remain a forum for honest discussions of food and people's dining experiences. Its a much more mature forum unlike the "kids with matches and dynamite" playground of chowhound.

"I" and I am sure "most people" who post about negative experiences here are not trashing restaurants out of pleasure nor do we seek something in return, it simply is a report of our experiences. The true impact of e gullet in the real world is tiny compared to what the masses out there are seeking. It is now increasingly the fact that many local "restauranteurs" monitor the board and are in fact responding to customer gripes directly through e mail or indirectly through the board to respond to the perception of "negative publicity".

There is no doubt that restaurants are difficult to operate, a lot of us have been in the industry in various forms and some of us intend to return to it. The point is nowhere is perfect and there is a likelyhood of bad experiences at any place. I think at the end of the day, what people are looking for is how problems are dealt with ............not to "celebrate" the fact that there are problems.

Many a time chef's are in the kitchen paying attention to 30 different things and some issues slip by under the radar. At the end of the day, customers dont relly care if you stayed out late the night before, had a hangover, your dog was sick or your significant other is pissed at you......they want the food with "most" of the intergrity it is being marketed with.

In recent incidents, relating to me, Tartetatin ect ect.

The smart ones Ross Essner, Todd Lean have responded generously even though that was not what was being sought.

The particular postings were not rude, presumptious or biting, just detailed about the experiences.

Restaurant people seem to get angry at customer "complaints" and find customer "service" to increasingly be a burden.

Now after that long-ass disclaimer, the particular incident that brought this back to my attention is as follows, perhaps it should be in the restaurant's thread but it's a larger issue..

After being inspired by the recent inquiry restaurant XXXXX

I decided to go to dinner with some out of town friends after fondly remembering a delicious lunch. Diner X ordered a seared scallop dish that came with a puree of cauliflower I think.

Whatever puree it was is irrelevant to the story. In any case, the scallops were lukewarm, plate was cold as was the puree.

This was brought to the server's attention who promptly whisked it back to the kitchen.

Upon returning...and closer inspection.........everything was "hot".

Every item was reheated, even the scallops which by this time was as bone dry as king tut.

The same scallops down to the one that had a chunk eaten out of it by the diner to determine it wasnt even remotely hot......

Diner X asked that the whole dish be re-cooked as by this time the main Item was egregiously overcooked.

The restaurant "manager" intervened with an "attitude"....."what's the problem now?"......

Insisting the dish was fine....

How does one handle that ?

Is that asking too much from a restaurant of that caliber ?

A "free" Scallop ?

Big deal ?

Edited September 17, 2006 by Vadouvan (log)

[Jeff L]

As someone outside of the restaurant business, I can say that I do in fact want to be heard when I have an issue with a meal. It usually takes a major fauxpas for me to complain however, when I do, I expect the problem to be remedied in short order without attitude.

I have had similar experiences with piss poor attitudes like the one you mention V and my responses were swift and direct in a "take no prisoners" sort of way. As you say, there are many things that can and do go wrong in even the finest kitchens, but there should be no tolerance for rudeness especially coming from someone who is charged with training employees, i.e the manager or God forbid, owners.

[David McDuff]

One of the things that most attracted me to eGullet when it was first introduced to me was (and still is) its overall sense of maturity and professionalism. There is a level of both passion and sincerity, along with a peer-review publication system, that puts the site head and shoulders above most other food and wine related "bulletin boards." That said, like any other on-line forum, human nature expresses itself in myriad ways. Sometimes people just have fun and sometimes people gripe.

As it seems that some if not many restauranteurs are monitoring and even actively participating in the eG forums, clearly the site is having a real world impact. Whether it is a large enough impact to be for the greater good of dining experiences for all, I think, remains to be seen. It does not seem to me that the members of the site in any way mean for critiques to become the downfall of any particular dining or drinking establishment a la the one- or no-star ratings that can be so damning when published in traditional black and white dailys or periodicals. Criticism, when done well, really can be constructive.

[lamando]

It is very important to me and my restaurant that the customer comes first. If there is a problem during service whether it be food or service I now right away. Not to say our restaurant is perfect in anyway, but we try to keep our mistakes to a min. We have a pretty good record when it comes to food being sent back to the kitchen, and when it does it is made over from scratch( no questions asked). Also, having good staff on hand is so important. When putting together my restaurant I was lucky, All my staff I knew prior, and is still there today. I think this web-site is great tool for me not only as a restaurant owner, but also as a fan of the Philly dining scene. I always want to know what is going on around the city. I do go out to eat alot and use this site as a tool for me choosing a place to dine.

[etalanian]

I agree with all of the above, and also feel that I've learned a lot about the Phila restaurant scene since I first joined. My biggest complaint is toward myself - I only wish I had bothered to read and join earlier.

Rarely have I seen a complaint on this forum that goes beyond the respectable. I find the members to be responsible and considerate. It is a pleasure to read the forum.

And any restaurateur who reads of a negative experience and reacts with contempt, anger, or indifference...well...deserves what that will ultimately bring to them, because if that is the case, the complaining eG member is most likely not the only of his customers who has had a bad experience.

If I were a restaurant owner or chef, I would be thankful to hear of an issue that needs addressing that would make my restaurant a better place.

And, yes, I would have asked for, and expected, without attitude, a total replacement of the scallop dish; the first time I brought the temperature of the meal to the attention of the waiter.

Eileen

[KatieLoeb]

I wonder how much the "Small-town-masquerading-as-a-big-city" aspect of Philly contributes to eGullet having more sway here than it might in other places. This town is about thisbig in the restaurant business, and everyone knows everyone. As someone who has been in the biz here for some time, it is virtually impossible for me to attend a food or wine related event and not run into people I know, worked for, worked with, etc. As forum host, I've gone out of my way to try and actively recruit more restaurateurs as members so we can keep the level of discussion professional, and raise the bar some too. As forum host it is also my job (along with Holly) to keep the discussions civil and within the bounds of the Member agreement. I have rarely had to pull rank because the discussion here tends to be very civil and the criticism always constructive. I'm proud and happy about that.

If this forum isn't a place for a civil exchange of information and opinions, then people are spending too much time in front of their computer screens they could be constructively spending elsewhere. Or they're not in the right food forum.

[FistFullaRoux]

I don't own a restaurant. I have worked in chain joints and burger places. I have had customer service training in retail and healthcare settings. I want to open a restaurant. Maybe. Someday.

These forums and certain media things have really shaped what I want in a restaurant. In a perfect world, being a slave to the food is the highest form of being a restauranteur. Everything revolves around the food, ala Thomas Keller, Adrian Ferrara, Fergus Henderson etc. The rest of us mortals have to contend with the 99.7% of other people who would never step foot into those other restaurants, even if someone else was footing the bill.

Here's the other thing. I'm guessing many chefs or people who own restaurants have little to no customer relations training. I don't see that being taught at many culinary schools or as part of the curriculum for a business degree. It's as important as food safety or stocking the bar. There is a reason that chain places and retail outlets spend so much money on training for customer service. It is the cheapest form of advertising.

There is a balance to be had there. The customer is not always right. But neither are you. When there is any doubt in your mind, the default winner should be the customer. If you are a chef or own a restaurant, and you know in your heart of hearts that you are correct, then the customer is wrong, and should be handled accordingly. The double edge if that is that the customer, wrong as he was, will tell everyone he knows about the experience. You as a chef/owner have to pay a lot more to counteract that. If the wrong person was wrong, then you are doomed. If (as random examples) Jeffery Steingarten wrote something about or Tony Bourdain filmed an episode in your restaurant and had a problem with your restaurant, you might as well lock the doors. (Unless you are in New York. Then you will find the crowd that goes directly against what some critics say.)

If a customer does not like a dish, the generous thing to do is to replace or refund. The right thing to from a business standpoint can be somewhat different.

edited to fix typoos and clarify (I tend to ramble on long posts)

Edited September 18, 2006 by FistFullaRoux (log)

[Vadouvan]

V, you made a very cogent observation recently, along the lines that Philadelphians tend to react more to their relationship with a restaurant owner than to the food. I think that that's true (with the caveat that only a tiny minority of restaurant-goers have any idea who owns any restaurant in the city), but the reasons for it bear unpacking:

I suppose it is a human relationship you cant interfere with Andrew but I have always found it disturbing in the sense that VIP or familiarity policies whether instituted or de-facto tend to create as much ill will as the good will they generate.

In one sense, focusing special attention on people you know takes away due attention from those you dont.

Is that always true ?

Someone goes to a restaurant and raves about it though the rave is partially due to the personal relationship with the owner but that is barely stated.

For a Humorous example of this....

Read AG's recent brouhaha with Le Cirque...

http://www.amateurgourmet.com/

Scroll down to "Only a jerk would eat at Le Cirque"

Makes e gullet negative reviews look like choir boy tantrums....

[Sneakeater]

V, you made a very cogent observation recently, along the lines that Philadelphians tend to react more to their relationship with a restaurant owner than to the food.  I think that that's true (with the caveat that only a tiny minority of restaurant-goers have any idea who owns any restaurant in the city), but the reasons for it bear unpacking:

- as mentioned, Philadelphia's small-town attributes;

- Philly as "the northernmost Southern city";

- the role of food as creating a bond between cook and eater;

- the natural tendency to be friendlier to and less critical of, people you know; and so on.

All of which suggest, to me anyway, that savvy Philadelphia restaurateurs might think about the ways in which they could use eGullet to spread knowledge of, and goodwill towards, their restaurants.

←

(Non-Philadelphian butt-in:)

But would that be a GOOD thing? It would be good for the restauranteurs, certainly, but would it be good for the integrity of the board?

Edited September 18, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Vadouvan]

But would that be a GOOD thing? It would be good for the restauranteurs, certainly, but would it be good for the integrity of the board?

It would suck for the intergrity of the board....beacuse it may be tantamount to manipulation aka shill-o-rama.

But people do value that "personal" relationship to a point of absurdity.

Lots of people who never actually went to Django after the original owners sold it dindt go any longer prior to Laban's review becaue....

"Amy and Brian werent there anymore"

I heard that quote a million times......

This has nothing to do with them, just a recent example of irrational conclusions based on the "personal relationship" as opposed to the food.

[Andrew Fenton]

I disagree that knowing a restaurant's owner will necessarily has a corrupting effect. My experience on eG is that there are lots of frequent posters in the PA forum who know lots of people in the business. There's nobody whose integrity I would question; and I haven't seen any manipulation, or for that matter, shilling. (Even of the Trojan variety.)

[kretch]

Interesting thread. After a laughably bad experience at Raw a year or so ago, I was primed to post about it on here, but ultimately chose not to, only because I knew that their management reads the board and I didn't feel like starting something.

(What made the experience so laughably bad was not merely the food - like the watery "homemade" ramen - or the service - our waiter misunderstanding the meaning of omakase - but rather management's behavior in the dining room. Thus my post would have necessarily come across as ad hominem.)

In hindsight, I really wish I had written that post.

Edited to clarify that "ad hominem" refers to my post-that-wasn't, not to management's behavior in the dining room.

tmk

Edited September 19, 2006 by kretch (log)

[Vadouvan]

"homemade"

I also wish restaurants would stop using the term homemade.

[lamando]

I come to this web-site to find out what is going on in Phila restaurants and to look for new places to dine. When our restaurant come up on this web-site, yes I do read what people have to say. I will respond whether it be positive or negative and can take constructive criticiism very well. I will be the first one to admit if the kitchen or my staff made a mistake. I promise you after the problem is resolved it will never occur again. I have also noticed that when a customer has a complaint that never voice there opinion there. They feel as if they have to pound there chest to the people over the world wide web. In the year and a half we have been open we have a nice following of customers, and know if there was a problem they would tell me right away. I respect that!

[PaniniGuy]

"homemade"

I also wish restaurants would stop using the term homemade.

←

Well, at least "homemade" means something now and then. Certainly more than ads that hype, "real Genoa salame" or "genuine Italian parmigiano reggiano" which I heard in an ad for a national chain today.

On the larger subject, I do co-own a coffeehouse and am a self-proclaimed panini artist (and I could make you one for just $19.95 for the video... j/k). There's not much chance of me corrupting anything because you'd have to get 8 pages into the PA forum to find the first thread on Pittsburgh where we're located.

So I comment on other places where I've lived/visited.

Thing is, as an owner, I'm pretty thorough and exacting about what I say because, as others have noted, there is no value to other eGullet members in making something personal or just generally bashing a joint. As an owner, I'm also acutely aware of the following:

1) whatever I post on the internet will outlive my physical being and will be found by a search engine evenutally

2) people are employed at these places and they often really need the job, so it's incumbent on me to be specific in my criticism without impugning everything and everyone

3) well-considered, specific criticism is a huge help for us to make our product/service better. Saying a muffin "smells like ass" or "is the suxxor" is not helpful to us or to anyone else here.

I just had an experience on another board where a poster asked about coffee in Pittsburgh. Some other poster told them "don't bother" with our shop, with no context attached to it. I pressed him on this (before my posts were pulled) to find out the context. Turns out he'd been to our shop, loved everything about it, but as another place was closer to the original posters hotel, he posted, "don't bother" instead of saying, "such and such place is more convenient to where you're at and I think it's as good". Big difference between those two meanings.

But it's been said. On the internet. So now, with the right set of search phrases, someone (or several people) who could become customers will see, "don't bother with X" instead of the positive comments he said when pressed in another thread. And they may not even give us a try. Even though we did absolutely nothing wrong.

So there is value in eGullet. Owners (and staff) do read - and occasionally post - here. But the value is really dependent on the quality of input and the knowledge of the poster relative to the subject. And ultimately in how the comments are worded.

Just some schmuck's $.02.

[KatieLoeb]

PaniniGuy:

Welcome to eGullet and the PA forum. Glad to have you here.

I suppose I could apologize for the Philly-centric-ness of the forum, but perhaps we've just been waiting for you to pipe up.

I look forward to more insightful posts from you. Let us know if you make it around here for a visit. We'll buy you a drink and say welcome in person.

[Vadouvan]

I just had an experience on another board where a poster asked about coffee in Pittsburgh. Some other poster told them "don't bother" with our shop, with no context attached to it. I pressed him on this (before my posts were pulled) to find out the context. Turns out he'd been to our shop, loved everything about it, but as another place was closer to the original posters hotel, he posted, "don't bother" instead of saying, "such and such place is more convenient to where you're at and I think it's as good". Big difference between those two meanings.

But it's been said. On the internet. So now, with the right set of search phrases, someone (or several people) who could become customers will see, "don't bother with X" instead of the positive comments he said when pressed in another thread. And they may not even give us a try. Even though we did absolutely nothing wrong.

So there is value in eGullet. Owners (and staff) do read - and occasionally post - here. But the value is really dependent on the quality of input and the knowledge of the poster relative to the subject. And ultimately in how the comments are worded.

Just some schmuck's $.02.

Hence the reason several people think the Zagat ratings are fundamentally flawed.

[PaniniGuy]

Hence the reason several people think the Zagat ratings are fundamentally flawed.

←

At least you Philly folks are included in the national Zagat's guide in addition to having your own.

Our only comfort is that Seattle doesn't rate any better than we do vis a vis the Zagats.

And it's killing us that there are 24 restaurants in Cleveland listed...

[PaniniGuy]

Let us know if you make it around here for a visit.  We'll buy you a drink and say welcome in person.

←

Maybe we'll keep you to your word on that We'll be in Cherry Hill for the first-ever East Coast Barista Jam in conjunction with the Fresh Cup Roadshow next month (Oct 12-13 if I'm correct).

Home baristas and coffee geeks are welcome. No need to be a pro. The Jam is at the Clarion in Cherry Hill and the official host is Ron Vaccarello of Crescent Moon Coffee in Mullica Hill (home to David George, reigning MidAtlantic Barista Champ). There will be some sessions and an opportunity or two to learn some mad skills.

I put the jam flyers on Flickr.

[MarketStEl]

Hence the reason several people think the Zagat ratings are fundamentally flawed.

←

YM "Hence the reason 'restaurant insiders who know' say 'when it comes to useful reviews,' 'you'd do better throwing darts at the Dining Guide in Philadelphia Style' than you would 'blindly following' the 'pasted-together' summaries in this 'fundamentally flawed' 'alleged guide to fine dining'..."

HTH.

Edited to add: That said, did anyone around here read Michael Klein's 9/7 Inquirer article describing his experiences as the local Zagat editor/assembler?

Edited September 19, 2006 by MarketStEl (log)

[MarketStEl]

I suppose it is a human relationship you cant interfere with Andrew but I have always found it disturbing in the sense that VIP or familiarity policies whether instituted or de-facto tend to create as much ill will as the good will they generate.

In one sense, focusing special attention on people you know takes away due attention from those you dont.

Is that always true ?

Someone goes to a restaurant and raves about it though the rave is partially due to the personal relationship with the owner but that is barely stated.

For a Humorous example of this....

Read AG's recent brouhaha with Le Cirque...

http://www.amateurgourmet.com/

Scroll down to "Only a jerk would eat at Le Cirque"

Makes e gullet negative reviews look like choir boy tantrums....

←

There is an art to writing a negative review that is elegant in its contempt.

This is one such review.

Craig LaBan's trashing of Trust about two months after it opened (a review from which the place never recovered, leaving Stephen Starr to revive its ghost) is another.