Help - Sous Vide

[Tim Hayward]

Quite right about the equipment too - there are plenty of good makes out there.  Personally i use the Roner in the restaurant

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Restaurant? Is this somewhere we might be able to do a bit of comparative sampling?

Right now I can't find anywhere that admits to doing it where I can try it out.

[ravelda]

Hi Erica, thanks for the info, I will get ebaying!

[erica graham]

Hi Erica, thanks for the info, I will get ebaying!

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Most of the kit tends to come from the USA- so don't forget that you will have to buy a transformer too!! (I forgot that so had quite a few pieces of very useless equipment sitting around for far too long!!)

[ravelda]

Thanks again Erica, I will remember that.

Are there any brands or things that I should look out for on the water bath at all, and what other kit do I need?

Best,

David

[Silly Disciple]

For vacuum packing I use a cheap Krups Vacupack which I picked up on eBay for 10 eur. I'm going through the second one, since I killed a similar one. It works fine for sous vide cooking if you're careful.

I bought two circulators off of eBay as well, for 150 eur each. One is a Lauda MS, the other is a german brand called labuniverse.com or something to that effect, which doesn't seem to exist anymore. Both work great, with a .1 C precision.

[Silly Disciple]

Most of the kit tends to come from the USA- so don't forget that you will have to buy a transformer too!! (I forgot that so had quite a few pieces of very useless equipment sitting around for far too long!!)

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This is not very accurate. Haake, Lauda and Julabo are all German brands, with products manufactured in Germany as far as I know.

Most commercial vacuum pack machines use Busch pumps, which are manufactured in Germany as well. As for non commercial vacu packs, you can find several which are built in Europe and use 220v current.

Edited September 14, 2006 by Silly Disciple (log)

[Zoticus]

Zoticus has a point - everyone has their preferences.  We are talking about the difference between someone ordering their steak rare and someone ordering it medium to well because they 'dont like blood'.

Perhaps the reason people talk about perfection is not because it it the perfect way to cook something.  In my opinion it is because it is the method that is as true to the original form as possible without simply serving it raw.  You retain all the nutrients, moisture and content of your protein - cook it in a controlled and gentle environment to achieve a safe level at which to consume it whilst adding all the benefit to the protein by way of seasoning or marinates

Put like that is incredibly sterile and un-romantic but i think it helps explain the difference between the meaning of the superlatives that are often linked to discussions about sous-vide

Strip everything away and i think most people would agree that sous-vide has its place in any kitchen as a means of cooking and that in the right context new technologies can be used to produce innovative and exciting ways to cook food.  Furthermore i think the proof is in the (sous-vide) pudding when you look at the proponents of my theory Juan Roca, Feran Adrian, Heston Blumenthal, Anthony Flinn, Willie Dufresne, Thomas Keller and so on and so on

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Obviously, in order to cook something 'perfectly', you first need to have an idea what 'perfect' is and then adapt your means to that end. My point is not about differing tastes, about which we all know there's no arguing. What I want to say is that if something is cooked to an exacting technical specification, it doesn't automatically follow that it is perfect or even good.

Fish protein sets at 40C (?).

I cook it at 40C until it is just set.

Therefore it is perfect.

As you can see there is a missing premise.

Just set fish protein is perfect.

I'd take issue with this, because I think that what is meant by 'perfect' in this sense, is really 'the objective I seek'. In a scientific sense one can claim to have verified a theorem with complete success, and although not a technical term, this outcome could conceivably be designated perfect, but the aesthetic qualities of eating cannot be reduced to a successful experiment, and in fact the idea that achieving one's objective is enough in itself, also leaves the diner completely out of the loop.

I think this sums up a lot of modern cooking. Merely inventing a challenge and then meeting it does not equate with perfection or pleasing your diners. To me, sous-vide salmon is like I imagine salmon to be had it been left in a shopping bag in the sun. Either way, it's vile and whether it's been arrived as the solution to an invented culinary problem via vacuum sealing and stirred water baths, or because you left it on the car seat on the hottest day of the year, it's still vile.

Indeed, anyone who says something is perfect is effectively saying that it is as good as it gets, and when it's as good as it gets, that is the end of gastronomy.

[TheBacchus]

Quite right about the equipment too - there are plenty of good makes out there.  Personally i use the Roner in the restaurant

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Restaurant? Is this somewhere we might be able to do a bit of comparative sampling?

Right now I can't find anywhere that admits to doing it where I can try it out.

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Yes we use water baths in our restuarant - i'm more than happy to put on demonstrations of equipment for those who want to learn more. Its certainly a topic on egullet that people are interested in going back some years now

in fact has anyone seen this weeks Restaurant Magazine?

There is a 3-page piece on this very topic including information on equipment...

I think it might also reveal my bias towards the subject... lol

[erica graham]

Most of the kit tends to come from the USA- so don't forget that you will have to buy a transformer too!! (I forgot that so had quite a few pieces of very useless equipment sitting around for far too long!!)

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This is not very accurate. Haake, Lauda and Julabo are all German brands, with products manufactured in Germany as far as I know.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, I meant the cheap kit on ebay generally comes from USA!!

[TheBacchus]

Zoticus have you been spying on us? We have recently been perfecting a new technique known as gastro-auto cuisine that does in fact contain back seat salmon on the menu. We are also selling carboretta eggs and tyre-tread tripe...hmmm nouvelle cuisine all over again...Aggghh

Vile is a strong word but it is an opinion and it is your opinion which, of course, i respect. I dont believe it is the consensus on the subject though...

Maybe other people can shed some light on this to add weight to my theory but all the reviews i have read on salmon mi cuit (to give it its correct name) have been very positive

Either way you are right - it is a pointless argument - beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if you dont like your fish cooked that way then so be it. What's good is that you havent closed the door on the subject and think that vegetables have a lot of potential using these techniques.

Have you got any more examples of success stories with this?

Incidentally ice-cream is a winner sous-vide - fantastic results!

[Silly Disciple]

Maybe other people can shed some light on this to add weight to my theory but all the reviews i have read on salmon mi cuit (to give it its correct name) have been very positive

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I cook fish sous vide at home, not as low as 40C though. I finish it by searing it on a very hot pan for a few seconds. If what you want is a show of hands, then count my family as success stories, they seem to like it.

I also use it for meat, sauces, squid, octopuss, flavoring oil, and a few other things.

[TheBacchus]

Agreed - i dont cook it as low as 40 degrees either - i would also say that it is bordering unpleasant at this temperature. I prefer it at 48-50 degrees which allows for a little more texture, it flakes beautifully and has a much more intense taste than when cooked at 39-40 degrees

[Silly Disciple]

in fact has anyone seen this weeks Restaurant Magazine?

There is a 3-page piece on this very topic including information on equipment...

I think it might also reveal my bias towards the subject... lol 

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Any idea where I can get a copy of the article? not much info on the magazine's website.

[TheBacchus]

errm not sure how to link it on here but if you want me to email it to you then let me know your email address

[tony h]

In a recent visit to WD-50 in NY one of the courses served was shrimp SV. The shrimp looked and felt raw but was in fact cooked. It was really, really horrible. Snot in a bag is the nearest description I can find.

[erica graham]

in fact has anyone seen this weeks Restaurant Magazine?

There is a 3-page piece on this very topic including information on equipment...

I think it might also reveal my bias towards the subject... lol 

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Seen it!!

[TheBacchus]

In a recent visit to WD-50 in NY one of the courses served was shrimp SV. The shrimp looked and felt raw but was in fact cooked.  It was really, really horrible.  Snot in a bag is the nearest description I can find.

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Charming description - nearly threw up my morning bagel on reading that!

Hmmm, sounds to me like there's a good deal of experimenting going on in restaurants at the minute. Maybe its a case of one-upmanship? A lot of top chefs are using sous-vide in their kitchen so maybe its a game of 'i can cook weirder things than you in a vac-pac'?

Either way its crap - the focus should NEVER be taken away from what tastes good and by Tony H's description sous vide shrimp didnt even come close. And i'm suprised a place of WD-50s standards that this could slip through to the menu.

As i keep saying sous-vide is a tool and a whole new world for kitchen to explore. What it doesnt do is 100% replace a kitchens need for other tools. We cook a good amount of food sous-vide but that is because it suits our style of cooking -very light, fresh dishes that require little treatment to bring them to where we want them. Often this does mean little direct heat is needed and therefore sous-vide works well for us.

For French restaurants for example, it isnt going to be the case as dishes dictate that other methods be used and even with my avant garde attitude to trying new things - i dont like the idea of a dish being messed with if it doesnt warrant it.

Moving away from proteins though is where i believe the future of sous-vide lies. You can cook stocks, potatoes, pulses, ice-cream mixes, creme anglaise, vegetables and more all using this technique and each brings different things to the party.

For example, these are mains from our menu. Each and every dish in one part or another is cooked using sous-vide. HOWEVER, you will notice that it is not always the protein that is cooked sous-vide; sometimes it is just the veg or the sauce. That isnt to say we havent tried doing these dishes in different ways but what we have ended up with is the dish tasting as good as we think we can get it and that is what is important and priority over creating a 'novelty' or 'shock value'

For me, that is a balanced and sensible use of sous-vide in the kitchen. :

Wild Salmon cooked at 48 degrees for 13 minutes then smothered in English Strawberries. Marinated Fennel and Almond Froth

Lamb Loin cooked at low temperature and seared; Vanilla Onion Soubise, Figs Brulee, Bitter Cocoa and Garden Herbs

Roots and Legumes cooked in vegetable stock and garnished with Sprouts and Flowers. Herb Dumplings, Savoy Cabbage, Pistou and Spicy Caramel

Halibut slow poached and crusted with a thin Seafood Bread Pudding; Bunched Carrots in a pool of its reduced juice. Orange and Chervil

Warm Codfish and Japanese Wild Mushrooms each cooked in their own juices. Fresh Soybeans, Lemon Puree and Spicy Seaweed Powder. Ginger Spray

Thick-cut Sirloin Steak cooked at 60 degrees. Grainy Mustard-Nut Crust, Roasted Red Beets and Fresh Spinach

(Served with Truffle-Potato Puree)

Edited September 15, 2006 by TheBacchus (log)

[TheBacchus]

in fact has anyone seen this weeks Restaurant Magazine?

There is a 3-page piece on this very topic including information on equipment...

I think it might also reveal my bias towards the subject... lol  

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Seen it!!

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lol busted!

[naebody]

lol busted! 

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Oh do tell - you're amongst friends here. Otherwise, we'll just have so start speculating wildly *.

(* I'll kick off the wild speculation by saying: Aurora?)

[erica graham]

my guess will be Bacchus?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS

Just seen a non-commercial vac pac machine for sale for £99.99 from nisbets, not sure how long it would last though as it looks like its a third of the size of our commercial one, but considerably cheaper if you wanted to have a go at home, and have some worktop space left!

www.nisbets.com

Edited September 15, 2006 by erica graham (log)

[Matthew Grant]

As in Vivat Bacchus?

[TheBacchus]

As in Vivat Bacchus?

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no i'm afraid not. We are new the new kids on the block and Erica is right it is Bacchus - a new restuarant opening up in Shoreditch this month.

Not sure how much more i can say without breaking 'the rules'

Needless to say sous-vide features very much in what we do and to that end Restaurant Magazine have published a 3 page article on sous-vide and Bacchus in this weeks edition - something quite amazing considering we arent open yet! And quite humbling considering the gentleman on the front of the magazine! A certain Joel Robuchon...

[TheBacchus]

my guess will be Bacchus?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS

Just seen a non-commercial vac pac machine for sale for £99.99 from nisbets, not sure how long it would last though as it looks like its a third of the size of our commercial one, but considerably cheaper if you wanted to have a go at home, and have some worktop space left! 

www.nisbets.com

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I must add this - Matthew is right about VacPacs being expensive and also cumbersome bits of kit. I dont believe that there is much available in the market place to counter this but i also dont think its necessary

Often at home i dont vacpac things anyway. I wrap them tightly in cling-film and pop them in the circulator and honestly find that the results are brilliant. You obviously cant do sauces and marinades this way but for cooking a piece of meat or fish it does the job fine. Sure, we wouldnt use it in the restuarant but hey i dont use fresh chicken stock at home all the time either (cries from the gallows!).

There are some good machines available for cooking with i.e. immersion circulators and they arent too expensive. And if you can keep a secret I also happen to know that there is a circulator being worked on at present that will be designed for domestic use and will have a price bracket to match...

Now where did i put my antigriddle?

[naebody]

As in Vivat Bacchus?

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no i'm afraid not. We are new the new kids on the block and Erica is right it is Bacchus - a new restuarant opening up in Shoreditch this month.

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As in The Bacchus, the last remaining old school boozer in Hoxton? Interesting.

Feel free to start a thread on the place once you get things up and running. A bit of pre-publicity amongst us saddoes seems to have done other places no harm whatsoever.

[tony h]

Hmmm, sounds to me like there's a good deal of experimenting going on in restaurants at the minute.  Maybe its a case of one-upmanship?  A lot of top chefs are using sous-vide in their kitchen so maybe its a game of 'i can cook weirder things than you in a vac-pac'?

Either way its crap - the focus should NEVER be taken away from what tastes good

That was one bad experience - I have had many wonderful dishes cooked sv - and the flavour has been quite stunning.

For example - David Everitt-Matthias creates and extraordinary amuse of parsnip veloute-like liquid where the parsnips are cooked with butter sv. If you were against sv before you’ll certainly be a big fan after tasting that.