Momofuku Ssäm Bar (2006–2007)

[Fat Guy]

My sense is that even people who are familiar with the Beard Awards don't make dining decisions on that basis. The Beard Awards are about recognizing old news.

In the case of this particular Times review, as well, it was an old-news review. It was so behind the curve that Bruni explicitly went into a self-conscious explanation of how he was hopping on the bandwagon.

Momo-Ssam was jam packed before the Times review, before the Beard Awards. Momo-Ssam couldn't conceivably owe an iota of its success to those outlets. Those were just late recognition, not input. At this point, sure, maybe a few new people are going there to check it out based on the Times review, but the restaurant was full without them.

In terms of expectations, my point is that "two-star expectations" require knowledge of two-star ratings. I doubt, when you control for things like people who were already going to the restaurant before the Times reviewed it, that the two-star rating is particularly relevant to any significant number of people's expectations. And of course anybody who follows that sort of thing should already know about the lunch/dinner dichotomy.

[docsconz]

the Times review -- sure, some.

most -- not.  it's a downtown crowd.  some of them read the Times reviews...just not most...but most of them would already have heard of the restaurant...where the Times would really make a difference is if they haven't been yet and they react with "crap...we really need to check this out"...

the Beard award....nah...not at all.  very very very few people in the Ssam demographic are familiar with the Beard awards.

←

What was the Ssam demographic may not have been familiar with the Beard awards, but the demographic familiar with the Beard awards is now aware of Chang and his work. Don't you think they will be interested in checking it out? Why do you insist on such a narrow demographic for the restaurant unless that is the only demographic that it will appeal to?

[docsconz]

In terms of expectations, my point is that "two-star expectations" require knowledge of two-star ratings. I doubt, when you control for things like people who were already going to the restaurant before the Times reviewed it, that the two-star rating is particularly relevant to any significant number of people's expectations. And of course anybody who follows that sort of thing should already know about the lunch/dinner dichotomy.

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It wasn't until this whole discussion that I was aware of any supposed "dichotomy." Maybe those who are truly into Momofuku were aware of this apparent disconnect between lunch and dinner, but I imagine most of the world has not had the opportunity to be in that camp.

[Nathan]

the Times review -- sure, some.

most -- not.  it's a downtown crowd.  some of them read the Times reviews...just not most...but most of them would already have heard of the restaurant...where the Times would really make a difference is if they haven't been yet and they react with "crap...we really need to check this out"...

the Beard award....nah...not at all.  very very very few people in the Ssam demographic are familiar with the Beard awards.

←

What was the Ssam demographic may not have been familiar with the Beard awards, but the demographic familiar with the Beard awards is now aware of Chang and his work. Don't you think they will be interested in checking it out? Why do you insist on such a narrow demographic for the restaurant unless that is the only demographic that it will appeal to?

←

I don't. but....a. the demographic at Ssam Bar hasn't changed in the last couple weeks (to my knowledge); b. frankly, I think most of the hypothetical people who would be influenced by the Beard award but were otherwise unfamiliar with Ssam Bar aren't going to deal with the lack of reservations, the racuous atmosphere and the uncomfortable seating. (or they're going to come for lunch.......)

[docsconz]

the Times review -- sure, some.

most -- not.  it's a downtown crowd.  some of them read the Times reviews...just not most...but most of them would already have heard of the restaurant...where the Times would really make a difference is if they haven't been yet and they react with "crap...we really need to check this out"...

the Beard award....nah...not at all.  very very very few people in the Ssam demographic are familiar with the Beard awards.

←

What was the Ssam demographic may not have been familiar with the Beard awards, but the demographic familiar with the Beard awards is now aware of Chang and his work. Don't you think they will be interested in checking it out? Why do you insist on such a narrow demographic for the restaurant unless that is the only demographic that it will appeal to?

←

I don't. but....a. the demographic at Ssam Bar hasn't changed in the last couple weeks (to my knowledge); b. frankly, I think most of the hypothetical people who would be influenced by the Beard award but were otherwise unfamiliar with Ssam Bar aren't going to deal with the lack of reservations, the racuous atmosphere and the uncomfortable seating. (or they're going to come for lunch.......)

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not to generalize or stereotype, but...

Exactly how much time do you spend there?

I would agree that the general clientele has probably not changed a whole lot and that the sucess of MSB has not been dependent on the NYT or the Beard award, but I doubt very much that they haven't been a factor even if many of the people who might have been made curious to try it may not fit the usual demographic or may not return once they have.

[Nathan]

I'd be surprised if the Times wasn't a small factor.

I'd be shocked if the Beard award was any factor at all. You have to be pretty food-obsessed to be familiar with the Beard awards at all...in which case you'd already heard about Ssam Bar.

The only real shift in the Ssam demographic will occur if it gets a sterling rating in Zagat next year. Otherwise, its clientele will remain predominantly young and downtown.

[gingersweetiepie]

I'd be surprised if the Times wasn't a small factor.

I'd be shocked if the Beard award was any factor at all.  You have to be pretty food-obsessed to be familiar with the Beard awards at all...in which case you'd already heard about Ssam Bar.

The only real shift in the Ssam demographic will occur if it gets a sterling rating in Zagat next year.  Otherwise, its clientele will remain predominantly young and downtown.

←

Of course the Beard nominations factor into its popularity.

In the grand scheme of things, your average diner doesn't know who James Beard is, nor do they care about who wins the award. But the average diner isn't the average MSB customer.

Who else pre-orders bo ssam and pays those prices for banh mis but foodies and industry people? MSB is the first place every out-of-town chef, pastry chef, and line cook I've met first asks about and then makes a bee-line for.

Similarly, I have to drag every non-foodie I know to the place. Most leave unimpressed because they don't give a hoot about awards, buzz or hot chefs - they judge it on taste alone.

If I may add, I find this entire discussion much more fascinating than MSB itself. It seems as if some are implying that if you don't like it, it's because you don't get it. It couldn't possibly be a result of JUST NOT LIKING the food, service or atmosphere?

[tupac17616]

If I may add, I find this entire discussion much more fascinating than MSB itself.  It seems as if some are implying that if you don't like it, it's because you don't get it.  It couldn't possibly be a result of JUST NOT LIKING the food, service or atmosphere?

I agree with one small caveat: If you don't like a place popular with the food board community, it's because you don't get it. That's the message I'm picking up from the last 4 pages of this ridiculous thread. And I've seen it again and again on this board and others.

For what it's worth, I love Ssam Bar. One of my favorite places in the city, in fact. No, I don't go at lunch, and no, I don't often order the ssam (though I do quite like the momofuku ssam). But is it my place to criticize those who do these things, don't enjoy themselves, and subsequently write about it? Honestly, I couldn't care less. As long as you yourself are getting the best of what a given restaurant has to offer, why the hell would you possibly care what other people are ordering?

[Nathan]

I'd be surprised if the Times wasn't a small factor.

I'd be shocked if the Beard award was any factor at all.  You have to be pretty food-obsessed to be familiar with the Beard awards at all...in which case you'd already heard about Ssam Bar.

The only real shift in the Ssam demographic will occur if it gets a sterling rating in Zagat next year.  Otherwise, its clientele will remain predominantly young and downtown.

←

Of course the Beard nominations factor into its popularity.

In the grand scheme of things, your average diner doesn't know who James Beard is, nor do they care about who wins the award. But the average diner isn't the average MSB customer.

Who else pre-orders bo ssam and pays those prices for banh mis but foodies and industry people? MSB is the first place every out-of-town chef, pastry chef, and line cook I've met first asks about and then makes a bee-line for.

Similarly, I have to drag every non-foodie I know to the place. Most leave unimpressed because they don't give a hoot about awards, buzz or hot chefs - they judge it on taste alone.

If I may add, I find this entire discussion much more fascinating than MSB itself. It seems as if some are implying that if you don't like it, it's because you don't get it. It couldn't possibly be a result of JUST NOT LIKING the food, service or atmosphere?

←

um, foodies already knew about the place before the JB awards. that's the point. your statements contradict themselves.

like I already said, the downtowners and the food industry types who care about the JBs already were eating at Ssam Bar. the few older uptowners who may have missed the buzz and the Times review but somehow caught the Beard award aren't trekking downtown to 2nd Ave for dinner at a place where they can't make a reservation and have to stand around for a half hour before they can sit on a bench.

[Nathan]

If I may add, I find this entire discussion much more fascinating than MSB itself.   It seems as if some are implying that if you don't like it, it's because you don't get it.  It couldn't possibly be a result of JUST NOT LIKING the food, service or atmosphere?

I agree with one small caveat: If you don't like a place popular with the food board community, it's because you don't get it. That's the message I'm picking up from the last 4 pages of this ridiculous thread. And I've seen it again and again on this board and others.

For what it's worth, I love Ssam Bar. One of my favorite places in the city, in fact. No, I don't go at lunch, and no, I don't often order the ssam (though I do quite like the momofuku ssam). But is it my place to criticize those who do these things, don't enjoy themselves, and subsequently write about it? Honestly, I couldn't care less. As long as you yourself are getting the best of what a given restaurant has to offer, why the hell would you possibly care what other people are ordering?

←

no, this thread was caused because someone in a position of authority stated that Chang "is overrated" based upon one item, and his least interesting at that. if someone has an entire dinner there and doesn't like it...that's fine. that didn't happen.

[tupac17616]

If I may add, I find this entire discussion much more fascinating than MSB itself.  It seems as if some are implying that if you don't like it, it's because you don't get it.  It couldn't possibly be a result of JUST NOT LIKING the food, service or atmosphere?

I agree with one small caveat: If you don't like a place popular with the food board community, it's because you don't get it. That's the message I'm picking up from the last 4 pages of this ridiculous thread. And I've seen it again and again on this board and others.

For what it's worth, I love Ssam Bar. One of my favorite places in the city, in fact. No, I don't go at lunch, and no, I don't often order the ssam (though I do quite like the momofuku ssam). But is it my place to criticize those who do these things, don't enjoy themselves, and subsequently write about it? Honestly, I couldn't care less. As long as you yourself are getting the best of what a given restaurant has to offer, why the hell would you possibly care what other people are ordering?

←

no, this thread was caused because someone in a position of authority stated that Chang "is overrated" based upon one item, and his least interesting at that. if someone has an entire dinner there and doesn't like it...that's fine. that didn't happen.

←

Exactly. So she made a ridiculous generalization based on one item at a restaurant that you apparently know how to "properly" enjoy and she doesn't. It's not the end of the world. Happens all the time. CitySearch, MenuPages, Zagat, etc are literally filled with such crap. The average diner is not making several visits to a given restaurant to figure out how they feel about it. They are going once. At whatever the hell time they want. And ordering whatever they want to order. Plain and simple. Yet, the average diner, of course, is not even reading this thread and doesn't participate in boards like this one, which makes the last 4 pages of arguments even more ridiculous and irrelevant. We know what Momofuku Ssam is about. You're preaching to the choir, man!

[gingersweetiepie]

um, foodies already knew about the place before the JB awards.  that's the point. your statements contradict themselves.

like I already said, the downtowners and the food industry types who care about the JBs already were eating at Ssam Bar. 

Just to clarify, I think I know what I said. The chefs, pastry chefs, sous and cooks I was referring to, like I said, are from out of town. Many hadn't known about ssam bar until he was nominated. Hence, the awards are a factor in filling seats. But that's enough of that; I'm not going to fight to the death over the merits of a burrito bar-cum-overpriced pork-and-pickle restaurant. This is crazy. Hats off to Mimi Sheraton for setting off these waves.

ETA MORE clarification: by nomination, that includes the previous nod in 2006. What I'm getting at is that chefs and cooks fill up seats on a regular basis because buzz within the industry makes them feel obligated to try it. There's no judgment in that; it's just an observation.

Edited May 24, 2007 by gingersweetiepie (log)

[Nathan]

If I may add, I find this entire discussion much more fascinating than MSB itself.   It seems as if some are implying that if you don't like it, it's because you don't get it.  It couldn't possibly be a result of JUST NOT LIKING the food, service or atmosphere?

I agree with one small caveat: If you don't like a place popular with the food board community, it's because you don't get it. That's the message I'm picking up from the last 4 pages of this ridiculous thread. And I've seen it again and again on this board and others.

For what it's worth, I love Ssam Bar. One of my favorite places in the city, in fact. No, I don't go at lunch, and no, I don't often order the ssam (though I do quite like the momofuku ssam). But is it my place to criticize those who do these things, don't enjoy themselves, and subsequently write about it? Honestly, I couldn't care less. As long as you yourself are getting the best of what a given restaurant has to offer, why the hell would you possibly care what other people are ordering?

←

no, this thread was caused because someone in a position of authority stated that Chang "is overrated" based upon one item, and his least interesting at that. if someone has an entire dinner there and doesn't like it...that's fine. that didn't happen.

←

Exactly. So she made a ridiculous generalization based on one item at a restaurant that you apparently know how to "properly" enjoy and she doesn't. It's not the end of the world. Happens all the time. CitySearch, MenuPages, Zagat, etc are literally filled with such crap. The average diner is not making several visits to a given restaurant to figure out how they feel about it. They are going once. At whatever the hell time they want. And ordering whatever they want to order. Plain and simple. Yet, the average diner, of course, is not even reading this thread and doesn't participate in boards like this one, which makes the last 4 pages of arguments even more ridiculous and irrelevant. We know what Momofuku Ssam is about. You're preaching to the choir, man!

←

agreed. this thread happened because it was Mimi Sheraton writing. if a civilian had written "I went and had the lunch ssam and it sucked" no one would have paid any mind.

[Nathan]

um, foodies already knew about the place before the JB awards.  that's the point. your statements contradict themselves.

like I already said, the downtowners and the food industry types who care about the JBs already were eating at Ssam Bar. 

Just to clarify, I think I know what I said. The chefs, pastry chefs, sous and cooks I was referring to, like I said, are from out of town. Many hadn't known about ssam bar until he was nominated. Hence, the awards are a factor in filling seats. But that's enough of that; I'm not going to fight to the death over the merits of a burrito bar-cum-overpriced pork-and-pickle restaurant. This is crazy. Hats off to Mimi Sheraton for setting off these waves.

←

your clarification makes sense. but that's what? 2-3 covers a night at most (I highly doubt it's that many)...in an already packed restaurant?

[Fat Guy]

Just to be clear, the James Beard award that David Chang won was:

2007 RISING STAR CHEF OF THE YEAR

David Chang

Momofuku Noodle Bar

New York, NY

In addition, there was a nomination for Momofuku Ssam Bar as 2007 BEST NEW RESTAURANT however that award was won by L'Atelier de Joël Robuchon. Another nominated restaurant that didn't win was Wolfgang Puck's "Cut" in Beverly Hills. Anybody heard of it? Care about it?

So an observer of the Beard Awards would have to go a second level deep in order to get to Momo-Ssam as opposed to Noodle Bar.

The thing that's especially silly about Chang winning a rising star chef award in 2007 is that he hasn't been a rising star for quite some time. Heck he even got the same nomination in 2006 (who won, you ask? Corey Lee -- quick, who's that?). He's a well-established risen star. Those guys on Top Chef, maybe they're rising stars. Chang is someone who has more restaurant deals being thrown at him than every other "rising star" put together, except for Daniel Humm, whose nomination as a "rising star" in 2007 is even stupider than Chang's. The Daniel Humm of Campton Place was a rising star; the Daniel Humm of Eleven Madison Park? Come on.

I therefore think somebody would have to be simultaneously out of the loop and in the loop in order not to have heard of Chang and Momo-Ssam until the 2007 Beard nominations. I suppose there may be some people who fit that description, but I can't imagine the numbers are significant. And certainly, the flood of out-of-town chefs running to check out Momo-Ssam predates March 2007, when the nominations were announced.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the New York Times review only predated the Beard nominations by a month. And in that review, on 21 February 2007, Bruni wrote:

There are reviews that introduce an unheralded chef to an unaware public and reviews that take a renegade view, saying a chef disrespected must be redeemed. Then there’s this one. If it came with a soundtrack, you’d hear the clattering of a bandwagon, along with the heavy thump of an overfed critic landing squarely (or is that roundly?) on it.

[docsconz]

No doubt David Chang was known before the NYT review and the James Beard award, but what they offered to some people was validation.

[tupac17616]

If I may add, I find this entire discussion much more fascinating than MSB itself.  It seems as if some are implying that if you don't like it, it's because you don't get it.  It couldn't possibly be a result of JUST NOT LIKING the food, service or atmosphere?

I agree with one small caveat: If you don't like a place popular with the food board community, it's because you don't get it. That's the message I'm picking up from the last 4 pages of this ridiculous thread. And I've seen it again and again on this board and others.

For what it's worth, I love Ssam Bar. One of my favorite places in the city, in fact. No, I don't go at lunch, and no, I don't often order the ssam (though I do quite like the momofuku ssam). But is it my place to criticize those who do these things, don't enjoy themselves, and subsequently write about it? Honestly, I couldn't care less. As long as you yourself are getting the best of what a given restaurant has to offer, why the hell would you possibly care what other people are ordering?

←

no, this thread was caused because someone in a position of authority stated that Chang "is overrated" based upon one item, and his least interesting at that. if someone has an entire dinner there and doesn't like it...that's fine. that didn't happen.

←

Exactly. So she made a ridiculous generalization based on one item at a restaurant that you apparently know how to "properly" enjoy and she doesn't. It's not the end of the world. Happens all the time. CitySearch, MenuPages, Zagat, etc are literally filled with such crap. The average diner is not making several visits to a given restaurant to figure out how they feel about it. They are going once. At whatever the hell time they want. And ordering whatever they want to order. Plain and simple. Yet, the average diner, of course, is not even reading this thread and doesn't participate in boards like this one, which makes the last 4 pages of arguments even more ridiculous and irrelevant. We know what Momofuku Ssam is about. You're preaching to the choir, man!

←

agreed. this thread happened because it was Mimi Sheraton writing. if a civilian had written "I went and had the lunch ssam and it sucked" no one would have paid any mind.

←

Yup

[Fat Guy]

Mimi Sheraton and other major figures in the food writing community write controversial, provocative things all the time, yet only one in a thousand gets discussed in depth in eG Forums. Likewise, there are lengthy debates in eG Forums all the time that are triggered by comments made by people who aren't major names in food. The reason this topic has been dwelling on the Momo-Ssam lunch/dinner issue is, I think, not because Mimi Sheraton said it but, rather, because it's an interesting and controversial issue about which people have strong views. If a random eGullet Society member had posted here (I realize Mimi Sheraton's comments were published elsewhere) and said, "I went to Momofuku Ssam Bar for lunch and I don't get what the big deal is," then someone would have replied with the information that you need to go for dinner to experience the serious stuff. If a set of people had then taken the position that it's criminal to serve different food at dinner than at lunch, and another set had taken the position that it's fine, I'm sure we'd be in the middle of a lengthy debate regardless of who made the original point. This topic was going on full bore for 270 posts before and of this lightning-rod situation and will go on long after the lunch/dinner issue becomes tiresome, if it hasn't already.

[Fat Guy]

No doubt David Chang was known before the NYT review and the James Beard award, but what they offered to some people was validation.

←

Some people, no doubt, but the question is how many and, more importantly, how many of those people are at the restaurant on any given day on account of that validation, and how many of those people are confused by the lunch/dinner situation? I don't know that it's possible to determine the answer with scientific accuracy without a survey that's never going to happen, so the best we can do is reason it through. I mean, Doc, you went at the end of March, before the Beard Awards were announced, right? Do you really think that if you went back to Momo-Ssam tonight the crowd would be different? Or that if you had gone before the Times review it would have been different? Or that if Frank Bruni had given a no-star review and David Chang had been passed over for his Beard Award, that it would have made any difference? These new-paradigm places, in particular, seem to acquire their audiences before the major reviewers ring in, and don't especially appeal to those with traditional expectations of the restaurant experience. I don't exactly know who's reading the New York Times these days, but I do know that it's not the guiding force on the East Village scene as it might be on the Lincoln Center scene. So, fine, maybe a few middle aged Times readers from the Lincoln Center neighborhood took cabs down to check out Momofuku Ssam Bar, found it uncomfortable and weird, and never came back. I can't see how that changes anything.

[Megan Blocker]

Mimi Sheraton and other major figures in the food writing community write controversial, provocative things all the time, yet only one in a thousand gets discussed in depth in eG Forums. Likewise, there are lengthy debates in eG Forums all the time that are triggered by comments made by people who aren't major names in food. The reason this topic has been dwelling on the Momo-Ssam lunch/dinner issue is, I think, not because Mimi Sheraton said it but, rather, because it's an interesting and controversial issue about which people have strong views. If a random eGullet Society member had posted here (I realize Mimi Sheraton's comments were published elsewhere) and said, "I went to Momofuku Ssam Bar for lunch and I don't get what the big deal is," then someone would have replied with the information that you need to go for dinner to experience the serious stuff. If a set of people had then taken the position that it's criminal to serve different food at dinner than at lunch, and another set had taken the position that it's fine, I'm sure we'd be in the middle of a lengthy debate regardless of who made the original point. This topic was going on full bore for 270 posts before and of this lightning-rod situation and will go on long after the lunch/dinner issue becomes tiresome, if it hasn't already.

←

I was thinking the exact same thing earlier, but had too many meetings to post it. I second that (even though I'm totally the one who posted Mimi's comment ).

[docsconz]

No doubt David Chang was known before the NYT review and the James Beard award, but what they offered to some people was validation.

←

Some people, no doubt, but the question is how many and, more importantly, how many of those people are at the restaurant on any given day on account of that validation, and how many of those people are confused by the lunch/dinner situation? I don't know that it's possible to determine the answer with scientific accuracy without a survey that's never going to happen, so the best we can do is reason it through. I mean, Doc, you went at the end of March, before the Beard Awards were announced, right? Do you really think that if you went back to Momo-Ssam tonight the crowd would be different? Or that if you had gone before the Times review it would have been different? Or that if Frank Bruni had given a no-star review and David Chang had been passed over for his Beard Award, that it would have made any difference? These new-paradigm places, in particular, seem to acquire their audiences before the major reviewers ring in, and don't especially appeal to those with traditional expectations of the restaurant experience. I don't exactly know who's reading the New York Times these days, but I do know that it's not the guiding force on the East Village scene as it might be on the Lincoln Center scene. So, fine, maybe a few middle aged Times readers from the Lincoln Center neighborhood took cabs down to check out Momofuku Ssam Bar, found it uncomfortable and weird, and never came back. I can't see how that changes anything.

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While I don't discount the influence of the NYT and Beard awards as much as you and Nathan, they certainly don't hold the influence that they used to. As for the "new paradigm" places, I'm not quite sure what that really means, but one element of it would be how word of them is spread and that would be through sites and organizations like our own Society (where I first heard of it and determined the need to try it) as well as other sites and various bloggers - in other words the internet.

[docsconz]

My reaction to Momofuku ssam Bar was in some respects very similar to my reaction to El Poblet in Spain. It wasn't that I didn't like it or saw no value in it. I was simply disappointed compared to my expectations. In the case of El Poblet there were other factors as well from a criticism point of view as the two restaurants could not be more different stylistically.

[oakapple]

These new-paradigm places, in particular, seem to acquire their audiences before the major reviewers ring in, and don't especially appeal to those with traditional expectations of the restaurant experience.

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The purported new paradigm is totally unmoored from any reality. According to Frank Bruni's review this week, Resto has acquired a huge audience. Is Resto new paradigm? Little Owl was packed before the Times reviewed it. Al di La, same deal. Dinosaur Barbecue, same deal. Per Se at the TWC was packed from Day One, before any reviewer had written about it. For that matter, Olive Garden and ESPN SportsZone at Times Square always seem to be packed, but Bruni hasn't reviewed them yet.

Back to reality: Momofuku Ssam Bar got tons of publicity, even before Frank Bruni lifted his pen—e.g., this Eater post in early January. Just google Momofuku, and you find that the David Chang publicity machine was in high gear all along. Momofuku Ssam Bar was packed, not because it is new-paradigm, or any kind of paradigm, but because it is good, and because the chef is a savvy self-promoter.

[Nathan]

FG noted that one characteristic of NP places is that they are packed prior to critical applause. this is not the same thing as saying that they are packed because they are NP.

[oakapple]

FG noted that one characteristic of NP places is that they are packed prior to critical applause.  this is not the same thing as saying that they are packed because they are NP.

←

If the New Paradigm exists at all—as you know, I don't think it does—there would need to be clear criteria to identify the next one when it appears. This criterion would be useless, since it applies equally well to Bubba Gump's Shrimp Co.

But I do think the ever-shifting descriptors attached to the paradigm give strong evidence of its non-existence. It's a culinary Rorschach Test. People see whatever they want to see, and call it a paradigm.

Edited May 25, 2007 by oakapple (log)