Contradictions in Consumer Preferences

[phaelon56]

I think with dairy products mouthfeel is important.

One big problem is additives/stabilizers like guar gum

and carageenan--somewhat tolerable in Half and Half etc

but for me intolerable in ice cream (most anyway).

I am sure these are "organic" --but to me organic has little meaning.

It seems to be pretty confused given some threads and discussions here and elsewhere.

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In some cases the regulations have enough wiggle room that the product meeets the letetr of the law but doens't match up to the idealized platonic ideal most of us have in mind when we see "organic" as the label.

You're so right about mouthfeel. Many of the more progressive specialty coffee purveyors in North America have been trying out various types of organic milk lately and report wide variance in taste. Just as significant is a factor you point out - the variance in mouthfeel. I don't have as discriminating a palate as many folks do but the ultra-pasteurized products - organic or not - never have as good a mouthfeel to my taste. The stablizers can add to this in a negative way but in some dairy product they're crucial to ensure that the product doesn't separate.

[cakewalk]

We try to do what we can to balance the need for pleasure and enjoyment with the fear of death--and somehow get through life as best we can!

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Good way of putting it.

[dividend]

Yup, moderation is key. I've never understood the mud flung at the straw man who orders a Double Whopper value meal with a Diet Coke, in the same way that I don't understand criticizing someone for putting organic milk on froot loops. I mean, it's a start, right? The fast food consumer is saving themselves 300 calories. If you wanted to lose a pound a week, you'd only have to cut 500 calories a day. I have several college freinds who've dropped 10 - 15 pounds just by switching to diet soda. I veiw healthy eating as a complete, sustainable strategy. If I want fast food every once in a while, I'm not going to deny my craving. I'll be the one in front of you in the drive through ording the value meal with the diet soda. In the same way, which is better for you - fruit loops with organic milk, or fruit loops covered in chocolate flavored corn syrup? Especially since milk is on almost every list I've ever seen of "most important things to buy organic."

Side note - does anyone else have the urge to start a conversation with someone in the grocery store buying a "healthy" substitute that isn't really so healthy? Like "low-carb" bread, or lowfat margerine? They think they're doing something good for themselves, and I have to restrain myself from commenting sometimes.

Edited August 17, 2006 by dividend (log)

[johnsmith45678]

It's all "genetically-modified", just some of it by farmers over the last 30,000 years, and other by Monsanto last year. Heck, all farmed food-stuffs and domesticated animals have been genetically-modified by man...

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Selective breeding is not the same as genetically spliced.

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Technically, no, but the idea's the same. Genetic splicing doesn't worry me either.

[Fat Guy]

I've never understood the mud flung at the straw man who orders a Double Whopper value meal with a Diet Coke, in the same way that I don't understand criticizing someone for putting organic milk on froot loops. 

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I think maybe it's because they think they're doing something good for themselves, and I have to restrain myself from commenting sometimes!

[gini]

Side note - does anyone else have the urge to start a conversation with someone in the grocery store buying a "healthy" substitute that isn't really so healthy?  Like "low-carb" bread, or lowfat margerine?  They think they're doing something good for themselves, and I have to restrain myself from commenting sometimes.

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I was just about to write on this very topic - I don't often see folks buying organic milk/eggs and having a carftul of other processed foods. Instead, the current theme in my shopping mates' carts seem to be processed diet foods. Often times bought by people just back from the gym. I don't want to talk to them, but sometimes I think to myself - just buy a freaking carrot (or eat some whole food, really)!

[Fat Guy]

There's actually quite a bit of what I'd call "organic junk food" out there -- stuff like organic chocolate soy milk, various snack crisps and such. The place where I shop most often has a large organic section with a couple of whole sections of it devoted to crisps, candy and other junk.

[Tonyy13]

I remember not too long ago reading something on MSN.com about the most important things to buy organic. It went into ecological and health impacts on both the animal and the consumer. Atop the list were milk and eggs, where according to consumer panels, the largest apparently positive difference came in those two products. I am sure there was a "NUMBERS" type algorythm that was used to factor all the elements in. I do not buy organic milk, but I always look at it. I have read that Horizon has had a hard time keeping their standards straight since starting to sell to Wal Mart (I mean, who can afford to have their product NOT at Wal Mart, which owns at least 10% of the consumer shelving space in America), and at the same price for a half gallon of organic being the same price as a gallon of regular, I just can't bring myself to buy it (I go through about 1.5 gals. of milk by myself every week). When all is said and done, i bet if you looked in most people's basket, the majority of vegetables they buy are either processed or canned, in some type of oven-ready crispy triangle tempura shape, or have been muddled so much that they don't even come close to tasting like they should. We hear so much about organic milk and organic eggs, that the everyday food shopper might not be aware of where to buy organic produce or grains. I know living in Orlando, I know that I can buy organic eggs (which I do purchase if I am eating just eggs) and milk at my local Target, Wal Mart, or Publix, but I am not sure of anywhere to buy organic vegetables or grains except the Whole Foods which is 40 minutes away! Sure, there is a place called Fresh Market, but they are just setup w/ a Whole Foods look, but their products are mostly conventional. The point has been made here several times that if the option to buy conventional local was cheaper than organic, that most poeple would choose that. And I agree. The other consideration to make is cost. People equate portion size with quality in America, you only need to go to your closes buffet or steakhouse to see evidence of this. So, until organic prices for other ingredients become closer to the prices of sugar filled and processed, I don't think we will see much more of a migration to organic than has already happened.

[dividend]

I think maybe it's because they think they're doing something good for themselves, and I have to restrain myself from commenting sometimes!

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Touche. I'll be over in the hypocrite's corner of the forums, eating froot loops covered in lowfat margerine.

Edited August 17, 2006 by dividend (log)

[munchymom]

There's actually quite a bit of what I'd call "organic junk food" out there -- stuff like organic chocolate soy milk, various snack crisps and such. The place where I shop most often has a large organic section with a couple of whole sections of it devoted to crisps, candy and other junk.

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They do in fact make organic Froot Loops (a different company and brand name, of course, but still sugary, multi-colored O's) if you're so inclined. Sweetened with cane sugar, dyed with natural vegetable dyes, made from organic whole grains. I know this because my son spotted them and asked for them at the natural food store. I still said no.

I don't bother with organic milk, because nobody in the house drinks it and if we didn't get the ultra-pasteurized stuff, the quart I buy once a month to use in recipes would be useless. For eggs, I look at the Julian date printed on the cartons (or in some cases on the eggs themselves) and get the freshest. If I had a local, free-range source for either I would use it.

[Heidi the Pilgrim]

[johnsmith45678]

Interesting article - something must be wrong if the rest of the world bans GM food, and the US refuses to even do studies. Hmm.

GM food article

The rest of the world bans GM food?!? Huh? From what I've found, most countries don't, some requiring labeling, and the EU had a temporary ban.

It also appears that many US companies have done studies on GM foods, so that assertion of yours also appears false.

The usual gang of "the-sky-is-falling" appears to be behind the opposition to GM food. By and large, GM food technology will be beneficial - no technological advancement is without peril.

I guess you're opposed to irradiated food as well?

[tejon]

I buy organic milk to avoid hormones and antibiotics (or at least go rBGH free) because it's one of the main foods that my youngest son eats and I'm concerned about additives in something he consumes so much of. I don't necessarily buy organic cereal, but then he doesn't eat that much of it (by comparison) and cereal shouldn't contain hormones or antibiotics of any sort.

I could easily have been this person ahead of you in line, buying milk for my 5 year old and Fruit Loops for my husband. Last time I checked, he stopped growing a long time ago and as an adult can choose things I wouldn't necessarily pick for him .

[Matcha Eyes]

You all have to look at the positive side of this... even doing one healthy thing is better than none. The cereal may not be the best choice, but at least the milk is. One less bad thing going into you.

[Heidi the Pilgrim]

The rest of the world bans GM food?!? Huh? From what I've found, most countries don't, some requiring labeling, and the EU had a temporary ban.

Europeans are pretty opposed to GM food, most countries have voted to keep bans in place. The EU was bullied into accepting GM food or being accused of violating trade agreements with the US - safety be damned. http://www.foeeurope.org/ban_risky_gm_food/index.php

This is from 2001, but many may still be in place:

Bans and Restrictions on GM food

It also appears that many US companies have done studies on GM foods, so that assertion of yours also appears false.

Unless you have links to said studies, I'll go by this article, which states that GM food is not routinely tested, and studies that have been done and found problems were hushed or designed not to find problems.:

GM food myths

Myth 1: The FDA has thoroughly evaluated GM foods and found them safe. This is untrue.

Myth 2: These foods have been extensively tested for safety. Untrue.

The usual gang of "the-sky-is-falling" appears to be behind the opposition to GM food. By and large, GM food technology will be beneficial - no technological advancement is without peril.

The "opposition", as you call it, wants to be informed about what they eat, and refused to be led down the garden path by the FDA, not heretofore known for their good judgment and acting in our best interest. It's a free country, you can eat whatever you want and so can I, I just want to know what I'm eating instead of being bullied by an incompetent federal agency.

I guess you're opposed to irradiated food as well?

I think it should be labeled, for a start. It has not been shown to be foolproof, and isn't getting to the source of the problem, which is poor hygiene and sanitation in the preparation of it. IMO, I think it's unnecessary if you handle and cook food properly.

And that's it from me on this subject, I'm not going to hijack someone else's thread on organic milk.

[Carlovski]

There's actually quite a bit of what I'd call "organic junk food" out there -- stuff like organic chocolate soy milk, various snack crisps and such. The place where I shop most often has a large organic section with a couple of whole sections of it devoted to crisps, candy and other junk.

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It's the same in the UK. Annoys me in the same way as the crap that gets sold in 'Health Food' stores.

[phlox]

There's actually quite a bit of what I'd call "organic junk food" out there -- stuff like organic chocolate soy milk, various snack crisps and such. The place where I shop most often has a large organic section with a couple of whole sections of it devoted to crisps, candy and other junk.

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I know it's silly and overpriced, but some of that stuff is damn good! When I still lived at home and shopped with my mom at Whole Foods (not really something I can afford to do now, even if I wanted to), I'd always get the 365 brand oreo-type cookies and cheetos. Those two items are vastly superior in taste to the original. Probably not any better for you, and certainly not any lower in fat or calories, but GOD, the frosting on those cookies is so good.

And yeah, I like them with organic milk!

[Fat Guy]

I'm still not the least bit convinced that adding some overpriced, industrial, ultrapasteurized, long-distance-shipped, vitamin A and D added, token pastured, organic milk to one's grocery cart is, as my friend Rick Bayless says, "a step in the right direction."

By far the best-tasting milk that is widely available (as in, available in enough stores that you can get it if you want it) where I live (New York City) comes from Ronnybrook Farm Dairy in Ancramdale, New York. The milk is pasteurized at the lowest possible legal temperature and is not homogenized (the cream rises to the top). The herd is outside on grass for as much of the year as possible, and gets a mix of hay and grain in the colder months. There are no additives, and it comes from cows that are given no hormones or antibiotics.

Ronnybrook milk is not, however, organic. As Kim Severson wrote of Ronnybrook in the New York Times, "It is a sustainable operation whose owners decided that the term 'organic' was becoming co-opted

by large corporations, and that the extra cost of the federal organic label was not worth it."

At the other end of the spectrum, Farmland Dairies claims to be the number one producer of milk and dairy products in the New York/New Jersey metro area. Certainly, I see Farmland milk in every supermarket, bodega and pharmacy I visit. But right on every carton of Farmland milk, it says Farmland milk is produced from cows not treated with hormones or antibiotics. Maybe it's not certified organic, but it's a local product that's not ultrapasteurized.

[Chris Amirault]

Here in RI we have a similar situation with Rhody Fresh milk, which is not organic but is small-batch, very local, and heated only once for pasteurization at the lowest possible temperature. The organization started producing milk about two years ago and has overshot everyone's expectations. I don't think that they have an anti-corporate message like Ronnybrook does; I think that they just don't see the need to go through the organic certification process.

It's our regular house milk, tastes great, and we waved at some of the cows whose milk we drink at Meadowburg Farms in Richmond yesterday on the way home from the beach. Can't do much better than that.

[H. du Bois]

They don't stock Ronnybrook in the stores I frequent (which doesn't mean it isn't somewhere in Park Slope). Do I wanna add milk to the list of things I go out of my way to get? Not really (had to run to the corner store this morning to get milk for my coffee). The organic supermarket stuff tastes better to me than the other options available, so I'm willing to pay the difference.

[JohnL]

I'm still not the least bit convinced that adding some overpriced, industrial, ultrapasteurized, long-distance-shipped, vitamin A and D added, token pastured, organic milk to one's grocery cart is, as my friend Rick Bayless says, "a step in the right direction."

By far the best-tasting milk that is widely available (as in, available in enough stores that you can get it if you want it) where I live (New York City) comes from Ronnybrook Farm Dairy in Ancramdale, New York. The milk is pasteurized at the lowest possible legal temperature and is not homogenized (the cream rises to the top). The herd is outside on grass for as much of the year as possible, and gets a mix of hay and grain in the colder months. There are no additives, and it comes from cows that are given no hormones or antibiotics.

Ronnybrook milk is not, however, organic. As Kim Severson wrote of Ronnybrook in the New York Times, "It is a sustainable operation whose owners decided that the term 'organic' was becoming co-opted

by large corporations, and that the extra cost of the federal organic label was not worth it."

At the other end of the spectrum, Farmland Dairies claims to be the number one producer of milk and dairy products in the New York/New Jersey metro area. Certainly, I see Farmland milk in every supermarket, bodega and pharmacy I visit. But right on every carton of Farmland milk, it says Farmland milk is produced from cows not treated with hormones or antibiotics. Maybe it's not certified organic, but it's a local product that's not ultrapasteurized.

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Ronnybrook milk is good-- as is their butter.

However their ice cream is IMOP--awful!

contains carageenan etc leading to poor mouthfeel and the flavors/taste are pretty mediocre.

I wonder how they can produce such good dairy products and fall on their faces with their ice cream.

The best domestic butter I have found is KATE's from Maine. Whole Foods carries it.

Supposedly made in small batches and supposedly organic (whatever that means).

It is really superb!!!

[Gabriel Lewis]

I agree that this trend of (what to call it) buying organic milk with fruit loops is very disconcerting. What I would really like to see is the average person making more informed choices about their food consumption. As Steven has pointed out choosing organic milk that has been shipped very long distances, ultra-pasteurized, and to boot costs signifcantly more does not seem like an informed choice when products like ronnybrook are available.

I think it all comes down to how much effort people are willing to put into their consumption habits, which in my experience, is not very much. As others have pointed out, it is probably the prevalence of advertising like the msn special that has lead so many people towards purhcasing organic milk and eggs. Most people I know simply do not want to think that much about their food choices. They see the organic label in grocery stores and something clicks, and into the basket it goes. Nevermind that by now

organic is often just a label, not necessarily an indication of quality or health.

Ultimately, I think it's a question of how to get consumers to make informed choices, which I think is a difficult one indeed.

[whisks]

does a diet coke and chocolate bar for a snack fall into this category, or is that another subject?

[Matcha Eyes]

Diet coke and a chocolate bar... yum. That is actually one my favorite snacks. Well, not a snack. That is actually my dinner most nights.