Culinary Duplicity

[chefette]

By the way, back to 'cheating'

For home use, I really like the Pepperidge Farm Frozen puff pastry. I tried a much more expensive 'high quality' puff pastry one time and felt they really let the ball drop.

1- price: $9 for a very small amount (thought - for this price it should be good stuff)

2- packaging: small box (thought - how odd, this doesn't seem to be a great size or shape)

3- Raw product: folded into quarters, cracked, much of it unusable (thought - jipped!)

4- working: too small a piece to be really useful, especially with the damage, very uneven rise (thought - jipped! Pepperidge Farm forever after when not making my own)

As a 'cheat' for projects requiring a small amount of puff as a base or garnish, do not see any real compromise in flavor, texture, or appearance. Gives me the opportunity to put my time and money into more exciting fillings. Where do I draw the line? When puff is a significant part of the dish, say in a pithiviers.

I think it's different at restaurants where you have access to professional level pre-made products. I worked at restaurants where we purchased huge sheets of frozen puff that we used for everything puff related, and I worked at places where they insisted on doing it in-house. I cannot say that the in-house was superior primarily because different people made it - sometimes different people turned it after it got set up. There ended up being a lot of variation in its quality.

[GordonCooks]

I think the heart of this topic - and the controversy on this thread - is

1- the difference (the fine line) between shortcuts and cheats.

2- each individual's tolerance/philosophy of shortcuts

As a professional or as a home cook, when do you feel you are 'cheating' versus making choices for the sake of time or economy.

I think that Gordon Cook's initial point was really more specifically about taking short cuts.  Steve Klc's point was also good about the use of prepared purees, flours, pastes, etc.  I am aware of people who feel we are all hopeless imposter cheats because we buy almond paste and marzipane.  However, if we all had to make our own, how many people could afford our products?  It would be a different world.

The shortcuts or cheats are also dictated by skill levels and accessibility of products.

Yes, the fact that you can shortcut hinges on your ability as a pretty good cook. Is you can't flip an omelette or make a risotto, chances on you putting Cote de Boeuf on the table are iffy. I realize professionals use products out there and I'm sure a lot of purees, stocks and demis are beyond my own prep ability...but I was looking for something a little less obvious.

Amended thread titles - "Made from scratch?" or "Calgon?, ancient chinese secret, huh "

[Wilfrid]

Well, I certainly wonder from time to time how many palates can really make some of the distinctions we like to discuss. Let me just talk about myself - I remember various occasions on eGullet where I have confessed to using one ingredient or other, someone has thrown up their virtual hands in horror and insisted I use something else, but I really don't think I'd be able to tell the difference. I am all for educating my palate, but I'd like to avoid pretending I can detect differences where I really can't. I know there have been many examples of this, but the only one I can think of right now was a discussion about using ready-ground or fresh ground black pepper. I can appreciate the distinction intellectually, but I have my doubts about detecting it in a blind tasting.

Steven made an excellent point about the decisions we each need to make about how much time to spend on particular activities. This is what leads me to prepare veal stock from a ready made demi-glace concentrate. Certain fine-becs here have described such a concoction as "bovrilly", but I just don't see the space in my life for stock making.

[Steve Klc]

But that was the genius evident in your initial post Gordon--there's alot here and it exists on several levels. As chef, as home cook, as consumer--there are conflicting perceptions and realities of time and circumstance. Thanks for opening the door.

[Fat Guy]

Stock-making has come up often enough that I guess I should address it: This is one of the easiest things to incorporate into your routine once you have the experience of making stock two or three times. Stock takes many hours to make but the active participation time is maybe 15-20 minutes all told if you're efficient. You can do most of it overnight, assuming you naturally wake up once in the middle of the night anyway. There is no lost time in making larger batches or multiple batches simultaneously. You can make enough stock (both veal and poultry) in one batch to last you through 6 months or more of cooking. It freezes brilliantly, and even if you have a small freezer you can reduce it and freeze it very efficiently. And I think most people really can taste the difference between that and the prepared products, primarily because of the salt situation. You're just much better off with a no-salt product that you season during cooking, and I don't know of any commercially available stocks without a heck of a lot of salt in them. Moreover, making your own stock is cheaper by a mile, especially if you get in the habit of saving your trimmings in a bag in the freezer or you have a good relationship with a butcher.

Fresh ground pepper: Also here I come down saying the taste difference is obvious. Do that comparison and you'll agree for sure. And it's another very easy thing to do that doesn't take much extra time or effort.

Chefette: But surely you discriminate against your guests on the basis of knowledge. You don't really pull out all the stops for a completely self-selected ignoramus the way you would if you had Alain Ducasse coming over for dinner, do you? Surely part of that reason is you assessment of the guests' respective abilities to appreciate your effort.

[tommy]

Fresh ground pepper: Also here I come down saying the taste difference is obvious. Do that comparison and you'll agree for sure. And it's another very easy thing to do that doesn't take much extra time or effort.

oh my god. who doesn't used fresh ground pepper!?!

[Suvir Saran]

I know that it can be very disappointing to give someone something really nice (like Valhrona chocolate or Cluizel) and have them say they really prefer Hersheys, but next time they go for their favorite old Hersheys bar, maybe it just won't taste quite as good as they used to think now that I gave them an opportunity to try something else.  Maybe they will be wracking their brain trying to recall what the heck type of chocolate I served them.

What a great example. Chefette, I am saddened that there are those that even after tasting Valhrona or Cluizel, never understand why those that have experienced their taste and been hooked by its natural and great flavor, have such respect for these products.

They are so happy using Hersheys that they believe that is "REAL" chocolate. It is sad.

But there are certainly those that taste the difference and are changed for life.

Chocolate more than anything is a great test in my book to see how clearly someone can understand the subtle but distinct difference between real taste and junk.

A childhood friend of mine keeps nagging me that I do not eat enough chocolate desserts anymore. SHe keeps reminding me that I loved chocolate as a child. I have tried telling her that now, I am appalled at the taste of most chocolate based items for I find them "horrible". I have been spoiled by the amazing taste of real chocolate that sugar and dairy alone cannot charm me in that brown form many attribute to chocolate.

I need the flavor and other aspects of chocolate to come out. If I were only needing a sugar and or dairy fix, there are those amazing other desserts that I would rather eat.

She still does not understand why I have changed. She attributes it to my having become "American" and "Fussy" and a "Manhattanite", always edgy and wanting to be different. I have tried sharing with her all the many preparations with chocolate that changed my own feelings towards it. I have bought her slabs of Valhrona and done a t aste test.. Nothing works.

[Suvir Saran]

But that was the genius evident in your initial post Gordon--there's alot here and it exists on several levels.  As chef, as home cook, as consumer--there are conflicting perceptions and realities of time and circumstance. Thanks for opening the door.

Yes thanks for opening the door!

I have learned so much from the posts on this thread.

[Suvir Saran]

oh my god.  who doesn't used fresh ground pepper!?!

Millions!

The same Millions that use "Garlic Powder" for a subtitute for real garlic.

[Suvir Saran]

Almond flour.  I buy it rather than "grind" my own from whole almonds because flour has the oil pressed out of it and you just can't do that yourself.  You just can't grind it that finely at home or in a pro kitchen because the nut oil gets in the way.  And gound almonds (with all the oil) just don't perform the same way in recipes--especially for baking--as flour does.  Now, I would never think of this as cheating but is there a perception I am cheating if you heard of some baker who said they pick and grind their own almonds?

Thanks for teaching me this amazing tidbit of information.

For years I have made my own Almond flour. ALways complained that perhaps the equipment I have at home is not what a professional chef would be using. Since the flour is certainly coarser than other flours. I had no clue for the reasons why it is coarse. (Thanks Steven)

Is the same true for Hazelnut flour? Since I use that a lot as well?

Are these flours available for home chefs to use? Where does one get them? I guess I can do a google search... But where would you suggest a home chef get these flours?

[Wilfrid]

I will try the pepper test.

Fat Bloke, I well remember your article about making stock. What daunts me is that I'll need to go through the process quite a number of times before I start making it well enough for the process to be justified. I should have taken it up when the baby was new, and I needed night-time activities. I did once prepare a pot au feu overnight when baby was teething. Of course, if you live in an apartment, you have to be happy to be steamed gently in the fumes all night.

[Suvir Saran]

The same Millions that use "Garlic Powder" for a subtitute for real garlic.

Jokes aside.... Am I alone in finding the taste of Garlic powder terrible? I have seen it used by people I otherwise am in awe of. But when I taste it in food, I can detect it and it ruins a meal for me.

Am I being silly in this regards? SHould it not matter?

I have always been capable of detecting its usage. I have been shocked always to see in what kitchens I have seen it used. People who dine in the fanciest of restaurants and have amazing vintage cellars in their basements, but on their spice rack, Garlic Powder is the biggest bottle. And of course black pepper powder. Which again is dead in powder form for all I care.

How do professional chefs think about Garlic Powder?

[Suvir Saran]

Another question for the professionals who have made this thread the most amazing learning experience...

What is Celery Salt? That is another thing I find in these kitchens I mention. I have never used it. I find the smell somewhat bad.

[Fat Guy]

What daunts me is that I'll need to go through the process quite a number of times before I start making it well enough for the process to be justified.

Go through it once and get back to me.

if you live in an apartment, you have to be happy to be steamed gently in the fumes all night.

One of my favorite things in the world is to sleep to the smell of stock simmering, bread baking, etc.

[Fat Guy]

Suvir: There are situations where garlic powder is a usable ingredient, such as when employed as a rub for meat. In that situation fresh garlic just doesn't work. That gets you to the question of what garlic powder you're going to use. I bought some at the Saugerties garlic festival awhile back. It was simply dehydrated and ground garlic. It was so much better than any commercial product I've ever tried. I assume they do something in the commercial process that messes it up. There's probably a better quality product available at the gourmet level, though.

[GordonCooks]

But that was the genius evident in your initial post Gordon--there's alot here and it exists on several levels.  As chef, as home cook, as consumer--there are conflicting perceptions and realities of time and circumstance. Thanks for opening the door.

Thank You for helping to raise the Benchmark in Pastry Arts !

Your stuff looks outstanding.

[Suvir Saran]

Suvir: There are situations where garlic powder is a usable ingredient, such as when employed as a rub for meat. In that situation fresh garlic just doesn't work. That gets you to the question of what garlic powder you're going to use. I bought some at the Saugerties garlic festival awhile back. It was simply dehydrated and ground garlic. It was so much better than any commercial product I've ever tried. I assume they do something in the commercial process that messes it up. There's probably a better quality product available at the gourmet level, though.

Thanks Steven.

What makes garlic powder better for rubs for meat?

Would a classically trained French Chef have Garlic Powder in their kitchen? I am curious.

[chefette]

Qoute Fat Guy: "Chefette: But surely you discriminate against your guests on the basis of knowledge. You don't really pull out all the stops for a completely self-selected ignoramus the way you would if you had Alain Ducasse coming over for dinner, do you? Surely part of that reason is you assessment of the guests' respective abilities to appreciate your effort. "

Surely any of my guests expect alot from me and surely Alain Ducasse would probably rather die by his own hand than have dinner at my house.

This reminds me of a thought I have every time I see one of these programs where people are telling any normal person how to have a dinner party or something...and an array of champagne glasses look brilliant surrounding a silver candelabra on the grand piano...I just think it would be so cool if they got dropped into any real normal place and had to throw a party. The little kitten dixie cups, plastic glasses, and assorted mismatched wine glasses look brilliant crammed on the desk top around the computer monitor where your guests can enjoy pouring themselves a refreshing cocktail...

Please!

[ShawtyCat]

The same Millions that use "Garlic Powder" for a subtitute for real garlic.

Hey! I substitute with the chopped bottled stuff when Ive run out of garlic cloves and cant get to the supermarket. I also have a bottle of garlic powder stashed for really desparate times. I really do prefer fresh garlic.

But I do have both a pepper mill and powdered black pepper.

[ShawtyCat]

I sub ap for cake flour and since I found out about this one; add a box of puddin mix to the dry ingredients of my scratch cakes.

[Suzanne F]

I have recently started consulting to a company that plans to manufacture "gourmet pet food" using all human-quality ingredients (plus nutritional supplements). One of the ingredients is spinach -- which so far in recipe development and testing has been FRESH. I most certainly hope that I can get them to switch to frozen. As A Caped Chef said, when you're doing 300 portions it just doesn't make sense to use fresh when there's good frozen product available.

I was heartened to read approval for frozen puff pastry -- I used to work for Dufour, which I still think makes a GREAT product. Yes, it is definitely better than what an inexperienced person could make; and what really great pastry chef has the time?

Want a good use for garlic powder? as printed in Urban Quality Indicators, Issue 13, Spring 1999, page 5:

Indicator of the Quarter: Pounds of garlic powder per chicken farm. Indicator Value: air quality; food systems quality; the advancing or retarding of suburban sprawl.  Clemson (SC) University researchers have discovered that garlic seems to tone down chicken manure smell.  When garlic powder is added to chicken diets, "poultry house odor was noticeably less offensive," smelling more like a pizzeria.  This may or may not stimulate suburban sprawl into rural areas with chicken farms.  In addition, the garlic diet seems to be producing better-tasting eggs.  Source: Hoosier Farmer, Jan./Feb. 1999, p. 5.

(reprinted with permission)

[rich]

Steven/FG - you mentioned good quality commercial puff pastry. Aside from Ms. Lee and Pepperidge Farm (which doesn't puff as well as SL) what others are out there? I've never seen any.

[Steve Klc]

Well, I can't vouch for how good Pepperidge Farm is--and I have seen some frozen puff not made with 100% butter. But I'm with Suzanne on this, I've personally used Dufour on occasion, liked it and you see it all over the place in supermarkets and gourmet food stores. Pros can get brands and bigger sheets than home cooks can. But Dufour should be readily accessible to you.

[Suvir Saran]

Want a good use for garlic powder?  as printed in Urban Quality Indicators, Issue 13, Spring 1999, page 5:

Indicator of the Quarter: Pounds of garlic powder per chicken farm. Indicator Value: air quality; food systems quality; the advancing or retarding of suburban sprawl.  Clemson (SC) University researchers have discovered that garlic seems to tone down chicken manure smell.  When garlic powder is added to chicken diets, "poultry house odor was noticeably less offensive," smelling more like a pizzeria.  This may or may not stimulate suburban sprawl into rural areas with chicken farms.  In addition, the garlic diet seems to be producing better-tasting eggs.  Source: Hoosier Farmer, Jan./Feb. 1999, p. 5.

(reprinted with permission)

Thanks Suzanne!

[Fat Guy]

Suvir, in my attempts to use fresh garlic as part of a rub, it, well, it just hasn't rubbed in well, and it has a tendency to burn and get that nasty burnt chemical garlic taste.

Can one of the pastry chefs remind me of the differences between phyllo and puff pastry? I was about to suggest a good phyllo brand and then I remembered how dumb I am.