Chinatown Brasserie

[Sneakeater]

I hope you find it there, but I gave up on Shun Lee Palace a few years ago after a bad meal including too-old lobster, served with a side of bad attitude, and I gave up on Shun Lee West years earlier. I'm not sure there's much at the Shun Lees other than white tablecloths, coat checks, overpriced elaborate-looking dishes, and steamed vegetables "spa" style with no sauce or taste. So be warned but let us know if your experience at either location is truly tasty.

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I hope I made it clear (by referring to Shun Lee when it first opened) that I don't think that any of the Shun Lee locations now provide anything worth much.

Edited July 15, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

I'm not aware of what I would consider upper level Chinese food available anywhere in the US on a daily basis. 

I've only had it once, and that was only because we were business partners of the chef, and therefore invited to his birthday party that year when he really went all-out.

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I don't suppose you should do it in this thread, but would you be able to start a thread somewhere appropriate where you could tell us more about this food?

(Unless you already have, in which case, could you provide a link?)

[raji]

Even standard Chinese banquet cuisine wouldn't be especially upper level, although it's definitely more expensive, richer, etc. than your everyday Chinese food.

I'm not aware of what I would consider upper level Chinese food available anywhere in the US on a daily basis. 

I've only had it once, and that was only because we were business partners of the chef, and therefore invited to his birthday party that year when he really went all-out.

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I've gone to some high-end places in China and Hong Kong... but not at a high-priced hotel where the prices get kind of crazy even for China...

Ping's Seafood in Chinatown reminded me of a high-end place in HK.

[Sneakeater]

I thought I'd carry over an exchange Jason Perlow and I (and others) have been having in the "Bruni and Beyond (2006)" thread here, since it focuses more on Chinatown Brasserie in particular than on Bruni's reviewing in general.

Another problem with this whole "value" angle is that Chinese food in general is perceived as a cheap cuisine relative to French and Italian or Japanese. The fact that Chinatown Brasserie chose American Chinese as its thematic jumping-off point even further re-inforces this perception and works against them, but I salute them for having the balls to try it in the first place.

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I think another way to look at why I think this doesn't really apply to Chinatown Brasserie is to see what's happened with some other Asian cuisines that might generally be thought of as "cheap".

Take Thai. Nobody complains that Kittichai is too expensive, because the food it serves is so clearly different from what you got in most inexpensive Thai restaurants. It isn't necessarily better -- anyone could plausibly say they prefer Sripraphai -- but it's clearly different. Not just in using more expensive ingredients and supposedly "better" cooking technique, but a whole different level of cuisine.

Take Indian. There have always been cheap Indian restaurants in New York, and expensive ones. Old school expensive ones, like Raga (which isn't open any more). New wave expensive ones, like Dawat and Devi. Either way, New Yorkers have had no problem accepting expensive Indian restaurants alongside the cheap ones. Because again, the food served in the expensive places is simply different from the food served in the cheaper places. (Moreover, the difference in quality of the raw materials -- particularly the protiens -- seems much greater between the expensive Indian restaurants and the cheap ones than between Chinatown Brasserie and the good Chinatown places. Unlike the cheap Indian places, the good cheap Chinatown places somehow serve protiens of a very acceptable quality.)

My point, once again, is that I don't think the problem Chnatown Brasserie is having getting accepted by the serious foodie community is that we automatically categorize Chinese food as "cheap." It's that Chinatown Brasserie isn't demonstrating enough added value to go with the higher prices.

(Again, read Ruth Reichl's "Chinese cuisine in New York" discussion here on eG to see the kind of Chinese haute cuisine that Chinatown Brasserie is not serving. If that guy from London opens his planned restaurant in the Gramercy Hotel, I think we might all see what Chinatown Brasserie isn't doing.)

Edited August 10, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Jason Perlow]

My point, once again, is that I don't think the problem Chnatown Brasserie is having getting accepted by the serious foodie community is that we automatically categorize Chinese food as "cheap." It's that Chinatown Brasserie isn't demonstrating enough added value to go with the higher prices.

I think your Thai and Indian examples are good ones, but the problem is that both of these cuisines are -relatively- new to the American landscape. The Chinese have been in America for well over a hundred years (150?) and Americans have been exposed to Chinese food for at least 70 or 80 years if not longer. Thus Thai and Indian don't have that stigma of being inexpensive, they are still considered to be "exotic" by many. Particularly in New York, Chinese food has always been considered a working class ethnic cuisine.

[Nathan]

People accept paying $100 a diner at Oriental Garden.

It also received a two-star review.

People have also been willing to pay that much at 66, Mr. Chow, Shun Lee etc....

Based on that, I'm going to disagree with your metapoint.

Whether CB deserved more than one-star, I don't think its been downgraded because it's Chinese.

[weinoo]

My point, once again, is that I don't think the problem Chnatown Brasserie is having getting accepted by the serious foodie community is that we automatically categorize Chinese food as "cheap."  It's that Chinatown Brasserie isn't demonstrating enough added value to go with the higher prices.

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I agree with this assessment totally. While I've enjoyed my meals here, I don't think I'll be going for many $125+ (for 2) dinners - for that money I'd rather go to Balthazar or Lupa, just to mention 2 places relatively nearby, in a somewhat similar price range.

And for a $12 drink, you'll find me at Pegu or Flatiron much more frequently than dealing with the snooty hosts (hostesses) at CB.

OTOH, if Joe was doing nothing but dim sum at his own restaurant, I don't think I'd have a hard time paying double what most dim sum restaurants charge, because the value added is that much greater.

As far as the quality of the ingredients, I don't think that CB is using ducks from Giraud Farms, or even Bell & Evans for that matter... Are the chickens free-range, or Empire or Wise brands? I doubt they're using organic bok choy or green onions - I might be wrong though.

So while I understand that the owners spent a great deal of $$ to open this place, it doesn't mean that they're going to make it back from my wallet - I wish them all the luck in making it back from others, however!

[larrylee]

(Again, read Ruth Reichl's "Chinese cuisine in New York" discussion here on eG to see the kind of Chinese haute cuisine that Chinatown Brasserie is not serving.  If that guy from London opens his planned restaurant in the Gramercy Hotel, I think we might all see what Chinatown Brasserie isn't doing.)

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Sneakeater, I've spent some time searching eG for this thread to no avail. I hit the search engine for a while and then I went to the NY Forum, alphabetized the threads, and still didn't find "Chinese cuisine in New York." Do you have a link handy, or can you at least tell me/us what forum that thread is in?

[Sneakeater]

It's now in "The Fridge" (whatever that is).

You can find it toward the bottom of the main "forums" page.

But to make it easier, here's a link:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=78832

Edited August 10, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

Holy shit. Did everybody but me know that Joe Ng didn't just come from someplace in Brooklyn, but from WORD TONG?????????????????? I mean, we already knew this, but the guy's a genius!!!!!!!

Anybody been to World Tong since he's been gone?

[rich]

Holy shit.  Did everybody but me know that Joe Ng didn't just come from someplace in Brooklyn, but from WORD TONG??????????????????  I mean, we already knew this, but the guy's a genius!!!!!!!

Anybody been to World Tong since he's been gone?

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So don't you think he deserved his own stars?

[Sneakeater]

I thought he deserved his own stars (instead of getting swept under the "$25 and Under" rug) in Brooklyn.

[Sneakeater]

But now that I can compare it to his previous work, I find his work at CB a little disappointing. His stuff at CB is more refined -- the technique is just incredible -- but his stuff at World Tong was more audacious. Partly, I guess, it was just the sheer volume of different things he was turning out. It would be nice if his masters at CB let him loose.

[Pan]

Holy shit.  Did everybody but me know that Joe Ng didn't just come from someplace in Brooklyn, but from WORD TONG??????????????????  I mean, we already knew this, but the guy's a genius!!!!!!!

Anybody been to World Tong since he's been gone?

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Have a look at this thread on Chowhound:

World Tong - Any Change?

[Sneakeater]

Thanks!

[ned]

There appears to be a groundswell of discontent with either the formatting, the contextualization, or maybe just the food itself at Chinatown Brasserie. I've eaten there five or six times and must offer a voice of dissent.

I think the pricing is just right given the service environment, the interior design, the geographic location and most importantly, the food on the plate. Their ma po tofu is that much better than all the others in town. As are their sauteed pea vines. I totally disagreed with Bruni about the Peking duck. On two occasions, mine was as succulent as could be. Must have been bad luck for him (and for the folks at the restaurant). We all seem to agree that the dim sum is fabulous.

I totally agree with Rich's assessment that Bruni's review might best offer two different star ratings. To me though, while the star system does provide fodder for graphomaniacs, it is largely irrelevant for the purposes of the informed eater. I have found the entrees to be uniformly delicious and creative in ways that are sometimes subtle (general tso's) and sometimes not (but in a good way), as in the black cod with shitakes and asparagus. In reviewing the menu on menupages I see that there are many entrees I haven't eaten. . . still it does seem to me that Bruni's but more importantly, many gulleter's comments about the entrees being dull, well it just doesn't jive with my experience.

As for the relative creativity of the dim sum, well I'm all for more of everything. But I think, and Ed has written here that the restaurant isn't trying to push an agenda of chicken feet or tripe-stuffed sticky rice balls, duck tongues or deep fried pork bung. It's just not that kind of place.

I always walk out of there thinking "Damn that food was good." I hope for my sake that the so-called "foodie community's" difficulty embracing Chinatown Brasserie doesn't impact their prosperity.

Edited August 12, 2006 by ned (log)

[Jason Perlow]

Let me be another voice of dissent. I have to say that Chinatown Brasserie is producing some of the most exceptional and high-quality dim sum items in the city, albeit at prices that are considerably above the norm (about 3 times more than your average Dim Sum restaurant in Chinatown, such as Ping’s, or Dim Sum Go Go). However, Chinatown Brasserie isn’t competing with these places. All of the restaurant’s dishes are cooked fresh to order (no steam carts) and are ordered a la carte, and the ambiance of the restaurant rivals something more like a Chinese Balthazaar than a 22 Mott Street. I think its a wonderful place to have a very classy Dim Sum lunch, with some nice cocktails, in a very cool atmosphere. However, If you’re looking for Chinese restaurant bargains it’s not the place for you.

While some of the people I brought took exception to the cost of the items and the portioning, everyone said the quality and flavor of the dishes were exceptional. There wasn’t a single dish we didn’t like.

Dry Sauteed String Beans with Pork

Fish Skin Dumplings

Pan Fried Turnip Cake

Seafood Dumplings

Chicken/Garlic Rolls

Soup Dumplings

Pan Fried Pork Dumplings

Fried Oysters with Sweet and Sour Dipping Sauce

Pea Shoot Dumplings with Shrimp

Mushroom Dumplings

Malaysian Stuffed Eggplant with Shrimp

Vegetable Dumplings with Peanuts

“Lasagnette” with Pork and Chile Sauce, a fusion dish that we thought worked really well.

Egg Rolls

Sticky Rice Balls with Black Sesame Paste Filling

Egg Custard Tarts

Warm Sponge Cake

Edited August 14, 2006 by Jason Perlow (log)

[Sneakeater]

I just want to emphasize that, my last comment notwithstanding, I would never contend that the dim sum at Chinatown Brasserie are anything less than fabulously great.

[Sneakeater]

Jason -- It's unclear from your post. Did you guys order any dishes from the main menu, or was it all dim sum and a side or two?

(The reason I ask, of course, is that if I went to CB for a dim sum brunch, I'd think it's great, too. It's only when I get to the main menu that I have problems there.)

[Jason Perlow]

We ordered the String Beans and the Lasagnette Pasta dish off the main menu.

[johnjohn]

I think I read somewhere that the dim sum selection is larger on the weekends, is this correct? If so, is this only at dinner or for lunch as well?

[Bueno]

But Jason, and I don't mean this to be at all accusatory, you do indeed have a connection with the restaurant in the form of being friends with the designer (Ed), right?

[Jason Perlow]

I wouldn't say Ed and I are close friends, we're friendly although I would love to spend more time with the guy. Certainly someone who I respect a lot. We know each other thru the industry and mutual friends, primarily.

There are others who could pipe up here who went with us on that occassion, but nothing was comped, if that's what you're asking -- we paid full price for the meal. Ed made the reservation for us on my request.

Edited August 14, 2006 by Jason Perlow (log)

[Rachel Perlow]

It worked out to $45 per person, including tax & tip. I think one glass of wine was orderd, a beer, and a couple pots of tea ($6 for one of those cute squat tea pots, they will refill with more water). Count me among those that feel the food is excellent, but at these prices, I wouldn't go to it as my regular dim sum joint.

Regarding the excellent food, I loved those shrimp & snow pea steamed dumplings, and the way they made them look like little froggies. The shrimp stuffed eggplant was given a new spin with the Malaysian saucing. I even loved the turnip cake, and generally I don't like turnip cake. Excellent fried oysters. The egg roll shell seemed standard (in a good crispy but not greasy way), but the filling was just different enough to make it outstanding, with lots of mushrooms, mmm. You just have to decide if the superior quality of the offerings is worth at least 2x (nice places) or 3x (dives) what you'd pay elsewhere, and that's a personal decision between your palate and your pocketbook.

BTW, we were a table of 6. As you can see from the pictures, items come 2, 3, 4, or 5 to a plate. But even the largest plates didn't come with 6 items. We wanted to sample a wide variety, so for the most part we didn't double up on items, instead we'd cut some dumplings in half and share. My point is, you might want to ask the server how many pieces of each thing you order come on the plate, so if you aren't into sharing bites of food, you might want to double some orders if you are at a large table.

[Luckylies]

The shrimp in rice noodle is the best in the city. the best, Jerry!!!!