Sincerest Form

[slkinsey]

Okay. But still, the "chocolate cake with molten center" idea was conceived by Bras, and Vongerichten's iteration would seem to be derivative. At what point of "copying" do we draw the line? For that matter, "chocolate cake with molten center" has obviously become quite the culinary meme -- perhaps due more to Vongerichten's version than Bras's -- and yet one doesn't see any menus crediting either one, despite the fact that most versions are more or less straightforward imitations of the dessert from Jean-Georges.

[Andy Lynes]

Okay.  But still, the "chocolate cake with molten center" idea was conceived by Bras, and Vongerichten's iteration would seem to be derivative. 

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Very true, but in the context of this discussion, I think Vongerichten's version is sufficiently different that you wouldn't call "foul" on him.

If all the versions you see around the place are Vongerichten's recipe, why shouldn't he receive credit on the menu and royalties for every dessert sold? Totally impractical? Almost certainly, but theoretically the right thing to do. If musicians can recieve royalities for everytime their recordings are played on a jukebox in a bar somewhere then why not chefs when their dishes are served in a restaurant other than their own?

[butterscotch]

taken out of context? everything i read from the chef's mouth conflicts in some sense from reality:

am i reading this wrong if i got the idea he shared these copycat dishes only with staff, and not the public?

am i reading this wrong if i get the idea that it was HOW he gave credit was the problem, not IF he gave credit?

and well, just using the word thoughtfully to describe what was going on kitchen is pretty darn funny.

i would say he thoughtfully chose his words to allow others to get the wrong impression, with his menu, and repeatedly in interviews.

and the quote where he says "i guess i did something wrong..." with an insight like that, forgive me if i don't think this will haunt him for very long. he's sorry he got caught is all.

In an interview with The Sunday Age, Wickens, 31, said: "I The main thing I've learnt is that you have to be careful about how you give credit. ..snip....

"I was excited to share with my kitchen staff some of the creative dishes that inspired me overseas. At no time did I try and claim that I invented any of the dishes."

...... the Interlude website refers to "thoughtfully and masterfully created" dishes.

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[butterscotch]

i think a lie of omission is still a lie. but this was more than that. claiming he didn't copy but was inspired by.... or that he shared these dishes with staff... implying they didn't also go on the menu. i'm tempted now to send this in to the ethicist at the NYT, LOL.

the word mincing in this case is worse in some ways than someone i know, telling his fiance there is no legal prostitution IN Las Vegas, because at least that is 100% true.

intent matters, and what i see is a clear pattern to deceive, again and again, hoping people get the wrong impression. to me, it's just as dishonest, and i respect it even less, because a liar will take a gamble, sink or swim... when this sort of sneaky stuff is revealed, they always blame the victim for getting the wrong impression. the word weasel comes to mind.

that cookie sounds really good, btw. and yes, i think the baker should have named it after who he took it from. that would be good form. and to be honest, i don't think he should be selling it in the same neighborhood as the original either. (often small retailers review their purchases with a vendor to make sure people in their neighborhood don't have the same merchandise because it's bad for everyone)

but calling adding a store bought crushed cookie to a stock flavor of ice cream a recipe? no, it's pretty much just another topping/ mix in. carvel had a version of this over 30 years ago, which is probably before E+B's, right? it's kind of like when i asked my local chocolatier to cover some potato chips for me many years ago (he thought i was insane, but his policy was to dip anything to order), combining two very common ingredients is something that's going on anyway in living rooms across the country, nothing to feel guilty about at all.

i do feel a tinge of guilt for being really curious about the cookies (are they the biscotti variation i'm imagining?) , and thinking that the scraps (in my mind the baker uses round cutters) would be amazing mixed in ice cream. hmmm, now for that recipe, i'd have to give you credit.

..... that one of our most popular cookies was something involving a lot of nuts that was baked all in one piece and then punched out with a cutter.  The baker had learned the recipe at another bakery, that had conceived the recipe.  Should our signage have credited the "inventor" of the cookies?  Or, for that matter, what about "cookies & cream" ice cream?  Should everyone making that credit Emack & Bolio's?

There is some difference, in my mind, between saying "I conceived this" when you did not, and simply not saying anything about who conveived something.

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[slkinsey]

If all the versions you see around the place are Vongerichten's recipe, why shouldn't he receive credit on the menu and royalties for every dessert sold? Totally impractical? Almost certainly, but theoretically the right thing to do. If musicians can recieve royalities for everytime their recordings are played on a jukebox in a bar somewhere then why not chefs when their dishes are served in a restaurant other than their own?

Well, first of all you're crazy if you think musicians receive royalties every time their recordings are sold or played in a commercial venue. There are several "bootleg" recordings of operas in which I performed a role available for sale, and I have never received a dime nor was my permission ever sought. Anyway, I digress. . .

The main problem with your comparison is that the two examples are not similar. A recording is a preserved example of the artist's work from the artist's own instrument. A recipe or conception is not. Now, if Vongerichten's staff were baking molten chocolate cakes in the kitchens of Jean-Georges and shipping them to various restaurants to be served, then we would have analogous examples. In that instance, I agree that it would make ethical sense for the restaurants to give credit to JGV.

I should point out, in case it is not clear, that I am playing Devil's Advocate here a bit. I do agree that there is a level of imitation that, in certain situations, necessitates credit. But there is some question in my mind as to where those levels lie, and whether we are guilty of a bit of conceit in applying these ideas so vehemently to this particular style of cuisine because the chefs style themselves "conceptual artists" working in a culinary medium.

Most people would agree that Daniel Boulud's db Bistro Moderne conceived (or brought to prominence) the idea of the "luxe haute hamburger." This, like the molten chocolate cake, has become a culinary meme, although not as strong as the cake meme. So. . . should Boulud receive credit, perhaps even a royalty, every time another restaurant serves a super-expensive hamburger with truffles and foie gras? At what degree of difference in execution does another restaurant's ethical obligation to Boulud cease?

Or let's take it even further. . . what about the guy and the restaurant that came up with the widely imitated idea of a large mild onion cut on a special cutter, battered and deep fried so it comes out in the shape of a flower (e.g., the "Bloomin' Onion" at Outback Steakhouse)? Should every restaurant serving this preparation credit the originator? If not, then why not? Why is this idea any less worthy of such stringent ethical consideration than the dishes from Alinea, Moto, wd-50, etc? Could part of it be that the chefs at these restaurants are holding themselves up (or being held up by others, anyway) as "high culture creative artists" an their food as "conceptual art" while the guy who invented the fried onion thing is not? I should point out, by the way, that lowbrow pop musicians get paid royalties just the same as highbrow classical musicians, and in fact are much more likely to receive such compensation.

[butterscotch]

.... I can no longer agree with this forums persistence to drive his name into the ground until he winds up becoming the new milleniums poster child for everything ugly when it comes to defining copycat gastronomy. ....snip...... Enough is enough. Whats next? Front page of the New York Times? Will that be enough? Or how about until he closes the restaurant and lays off all of his people? We just might learn something as I am sure he has.

we should all be so lucky that the only fallout from our transgressions would be for people to discuss them. i merely pointed out no one was defending this man for what he actually did.

i thought that after 7 or so pages, it needed to be said at least once.

sorry we're not crashing chairs over each others head in order to amuse you, but really there is no coordinated or persistant effort occuring here. there's just a lot of random wrangling with issues of ethics and the nature of inspiration. interesting to some, but not to others, obviously.

you're welcome to move on to a discussion that you find more worthwhile at any time, or get back to the TV if that suits you.

[Pan]

I do my best to play bel canto flute music (mostly French bel canto) in bel canto style, but as I'm certain you know, part of that style is to do expressive things on the spur of the moment. If I merely copied someone else's interpretation slavishly, there's no way I could actually transmit the spirit of the music and truly make it come alive.

Do you not think there's a chance that by learning to play someone else's interpretation it could help you become a better flute player.

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Possibly. But I would never present such an interpretation in a performance.

The fact is, I went through a process something like that. When I was a student, I did try out my teachers' suggestions. However, I don't believe I ever actually attempted or succeeded in performing something exactly the way someone else did. The way a good musician learns is by taking influences from many places and combining them with one's own thinking, feeling, and inspiration to form one's own interpretation/rendition.

After all practice makes perfect, and the better you get at playing the flute the better your own original pieces will be when you write them.

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Who's talking about writing music here? I have written a few pieces, but that's largely a separate discipline from interpretation.

It would take an arrogant chef to say that they know everything and have no more to learn.

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An arrogant chef, and a dead musician.

But keep in mind, many of us think there's nothing wrong with copying a dish (or, perhaps better, doing one's own rendition of it), as long as credit is given. The big question here is when and to what extent credit should be given.

[inventolux]

.... I can no longer agree with this forums persistence to drive his name into the ground until he winds up becoming the new milleniums poster child for everything ugly when it comes to defining copycat gastronomy. ....snip...... Enough is enough. Whats next? Front page of the New York Times? Will that be enough? Or how about until he closes the restaurant and lays off all of his people? We just might learn something as I am sure he has.

we should all be so lucky that the only fallout from our transgressions would be for people to discuss them. i merely pointed out no one was defending this man for what he actually did.

i thought that after 7 or so pages, it needed to be said at least once.

sorry we're not crashing chairs over each others head in order to amuse you, but really there is no coordinated or persistant effort occuring here. there's just a lot of random wrangling with issues of ethics and the nature of inspiration. interesting to some, but not to others, obviously.

you're welcome to move on to a discussion that you find more worthwhile at any time, or get back to the TV if that suits you.

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Pointing something out and virtual crucifixion are two different things. I am POINTING OUT the fact that previous posts clearly indicate he made some mistakes, plenty of eloquent discussion has been exercised against him. We get it. The press gets it. Now lets tone it down a bit. Eliminating one bad seed still leaves an entire grove to deal with. Thats all im saying.

I have to go now, Ken Lay is on "Behind The Music"

[Andy Lynes]

The main problem with your comparison is that the two examples are not similar.  A recording is a preserved example of the artist's work from the artist's own instrument.  A recipe or conception is not. 

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I don't want to get too hung up on this but maybe the royalties recieved by the composer when their a song is covered by an artist either live in performance or on record is a closer analogy.

Edited March 26, 2006 by Andy Lynes (log)

[slkinsey]

Andy, that's a copyright issue. You can copyright the recording of an idea (be that on paper or tape) but you can't copyright the idea, or even necessarily the expression of the idea.

[Andy Lynes]

I'm not really talking about the letter of the law here, just making a broad comparison to illustrate a point. I think we established there was no legal issue quite a while ago. You've been hanging out with lawyers for too long Sam!

Edited March 26, 2006 by Andy Lynes (log)

[slkinsey]

Let us suppose for a moment that it were possible to collect royalties and mandate citations for substantially derivative "culinary works." Does everyone agree that this is a good thing? Where would we draw the line? The example I made above of the "fried onion flower" seems roughly analogous to copying Dufresne's prawn pasta. Do we agree that they are equally worthy of such ethical (and perhaps legal) consideration? Do we agree that the culinary world would be better if all restaurants serving a knockoff of JGV's molten chocolate cake had to pay a royalty and credit JGV on their menus? What level of imitation is acceptable and what is not? Do we agree that every uncredited food item on a menu is inherently claimed as an exclusive creation of that chef? Why do we feel that prawn noodles are worthy of such consideration, and yet luxe hamburgers with truffles and foie gras, or onions deep fried in a certain way are not?

[Tess]

Let us suppose for a moment that it were possible to collect royalties and mandate citations for substantially derivative "culinary works."  Does everyone agree that this is a good thing?  Where would we draw the line?  The example I made above of the "fried onion flower" seems roughly analogous to copying Dufresne's prawn pasta.  Do we agree that they are equally worthy of such ethical (and perhaps legal) consideration?  Do we agree that the culinary world would be better if all restaurants serving a knockoff of JGV's molten chocolate cake had to pay a royalty and credit JGV on their menus?  What level of imitation is acceptable and what is not?  Do we agree that every uncredited food item on a menu is inherently claimed as an exclusive creation of that chef?  Why do we feel that prawn noodles are worthy of such consideration, and yet luxe hamburgers with truffles and foie gras, or onions deep fried in a certain way are not?

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I don't agree very much with any of the statements you posit, and certainly not with the idea of charging royalties. As a customer, what I want to know is whether a restaurant is what it claims to be. If someone claims to be an innovator and they're really more of an imitator, that's not good. Not speaking for anyone else here, but I have fewer expectations along those lines when it comes to restaurants like Outback and things like the fried onion.

[butterscotch]

i can't see any royalties working out unless you somehow figure out a way to patent and control a very specific process. i WISH i could have done that with dugout smashed bagels. oh well.

i think the only incentives to not pilfer dishes is the scorn and potential loss of prestige.

it occured to me that since most of us agree giving credit is a big issue, dish names could be hyphenated, like children so often are these days. silly or fairer?

aside from the issues of ingredients and cooking process that slkinsey has so thoughtfully raised, how do proximity and timing factor in?

obviously a place across the street copying your new best dish will hurt, but....

is it really more okay if you're in another hemisphere? country? city?

is there a length of time or event that allows you to skip the credit, such as:

recipe is published?

chef makes it on 10 TV shows?

restruant closes?

chef dies?

these are the things i'm most curious about.

Let us suppose for a moment that it were possible to collect royalties and mandate citations for substantially derivative "culinary works."  Does everyone agree that this is a good thing?  Where would we draw the line?  The example I made above of the "fried onion flower" seems roughly analogous to copying Dufresne's prawn pasta.  Do we agree that they are equally worthy of such ethical (and perhaps legal) consideration?  Do we agree that the culinary world would be better if all restaurants serving a knockoff of JGV's molten chocolate cake had to pay a royalty and credit JGV on their menus?  What level of imitation is acceptable and what is not?  Do we agree that every uncredited food item on a menu is inherently claimed as an exclusive creation of that chef?  Why do we feel that prawn noodles are worthy of such consideration, and yet luxe hamburgers with truffles and foie gras, or onions deep fried in a certain way are not?

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[cdh]

Royalties don't belong in this picture.

What the general clamor here appears to be for is something like worldwide moral rights over particular food preparations. I think that idea is a bit silly in the context of food... but then again, I also think the idea is silly in the context of music and paintings too. Just because I find them silly hasn't prevented most of continental europe (and the U.S. to a limited extent) from adopting laws that give owners of copyrighted works inalienable rights to control their works long after they've been sold. Feel free to discuss that model if it jives with what you think is right.

When it comes to food, whether what's sitting on my plate is an original creation or a knock-off counts for a tiny fraction in my assessment of it. My emphasis is on whether the food tastes delicious or not. If somebody were to set up a restaurant in my part of the world selling equally delicious knock-off dishes from El Bulli and Tetsuya, The Fat Duck and La Ferme de Mon Pere, I'd be happy for it being there whether they gave credit on their menus or not...* I'd imagine that Australians who got to eat at Interlude may feel similarly. Do we have any antipodean readers who experienced this knock-off cuisine first hand?

* I'd probably be happier if they did give credit so that what they were doing came onto my radar screen through speedy media coverage... but if they did so, they might be in for quite some trademark litigation, as they're using the famous names of others to draw customers to themselves.

Edited March 27, 2006 by cdh (log)

[slkinsey]

* I'd probably be happier if they did give credit so that what they were doing came onto my radar screen through speedy media coverage... but if they did so, they might be in for quite some trademark litigation, as they're using the famous names of others to draw customers to themselves.

This brings up an interesting point. Not everyone would necessarily be pleased to be formally credited for derivative or imitative dishes. I could see an instance where a restaurant was serving a dish that credits another chef, and the credited chef might not be too happy about it. He might assert that the second restaurant was making money using his name without permission, or that the reproduced dish was not faithful to the original or up to the standards of the original. Indeed, I imagine that this sort of complaint would be commonplace. From the chefs' perspective, I wonder if it is the case that they would like to be given credit where due, or if perhaps it is more the case that they simply wouldn't want anyone else making those dishes or working with those ideas but themselves.

[Pan]

That feeling would be understandable, but I'd have a hard time being persuaded to agree with it.

One thing that occurs to me is that the great early New Orleans jazz artists initially refused to make recordings, because they figured other people would steal their ideas and techniques. So, instead, a bunch of white guys called themselves the Original Dixieland Jazz Band, became the first to record a jazz record, and claimed they invented jazz! I think that experience should serve as an incentive to chefs who create dishes to record them in the currently hot new way, by putting photos on the internet. That way, when someone else claims they invented it...well... But the flip side is that when the ideas are out there, they are easier to copy. So be it. Imagine how many jazz artists copied Charlie Parker solos off his LPs, and then progressed beyond that to develop their own style. And then, imagine how many of them didn't make it to that step and remained derivative. That's the way it goes.

[Julian Teoh]

At the risk of over-egging the pudding, surely it is a question of degree. Inserting myriad ingredients into a burger "as a concept in itself" is not original, seeing that that was how the burgers came into being. A group of individuals across the world may, without stretching the boundaries of probability, come up with the idea of inserting seal and whale livers into a burger. It has probably already been done without me knowing by lovers of seal and whale.

On the other hand, mixing prawns with transglutaminase and extruding them into noodles with paprika and nori etc is not exactly in the same category. Here, we have uncommon (not to say unobtainable) ingredients being used for a unique purpose coupled with a novel technique. While Dufresne may have lifted the Fat Duck technique, he certainly didn't use the same ingredients or plating concept. The technique itself was borrowed, but the end result, I can probably assume, was vastly different in taste, texture and impact.

In my view, the worst aspect of Wickens's behaviour was to actually stage there and lift the recipes, apparently verbatim right down to the recipe name and plating visuals. The assertion made by Gauthier in the Guardian article is misguided; Wickens didn't just taste the food and attempt to recreate it (in a kinder world, this might be called inspiration); in that instance, there would of course be the variables of whether he would be privy to what made the dish tick. In fact, he went to the source and pilfered it.

I believe Lord Lewis had this argument with Heston Blumenthal on Chowhound before when Blumenthal arranged a stage for one of his cooks at Michel Bras. The coulant mysteriously appeared on The Fat Duck menu after said cook returned to England.

[deco75]

In my view, the worst aspect of Wickens's behaviour was to actually stage there and lift the recipes, apparently verbatim right down to the recipe name and plating visuals. 

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This forum has become so long that the facts are now being misconstrued.

Wickens never staged at wd-50.

Check your facts before flinging mud.

[Julian Teoh]

In my view, the worst aspect of Wickens's behaviour was to actually stage there and lift the recipes, apparently verbatim right down to the recipe name and plating visuals. 

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This forum has become so long that the facts are now being misconstrued.

Wickens never staged at wd-50.

Check your facts before flinging mud.

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Wickens did stage at Alinea, and perhaps more to the point, the vast majority of the dishes lifted did come from Alinea (I think it was 14 at last count) and not WD-50.

I intended "there" as an indication of a collective of where he staged. However, in the context, I note that I did only previously refer to the WD-50 dish. I did not intend to say that he staged at WD-50 and therefore retract that statement, and thank deco75 for pointing that out.

[Boris_A]

I'd probably be happier if they did give credit so that what they were doing came onto my radar screen through speedy media coverage... but if they did so, they might be in for quite some trademark litigation, as they're using the famous names of others to draw customers to themselves.

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With similar crafts like fashion or (furniture) design, it's working the same way. As long as the imitation has some (very) minor details changed and the original brand or creators name is not cited, it's fully legal and accepted. I really don't see why cooking should be treated differently.

[cdh]

As a customer, what I want to know is whether a restaurant is what it claims to be. If someone claims to be an innovator and they're really more of an imitator, that's not good. Not speaking for anyone else here, but I have fewer expectations along those lines when it comes to restaurants like Outback and things like the fried onion.

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Is this the Famous Original Ray's exception? Nobody cares that Manhattan is full of Famous Original Ray's, Original Famous Ray's, Ray's Original Famous, etc... (without anybody seeming to know if there was in fact at any time a One True Ray's)... A slice joint is a slice joint, and marketing is marketing? But when the technical skill increases, the obligation to respect one's betters comes into play? My lese majeste theory from a couple of pages back seems to be the principle at work here.

[inventolux]

As a customer, what I want to know is whether a restaurant is what it claims to be. If someone claims to be an innovator and they're really more of an imitator, that's not good. Not speaking for anyone else here, but I have fewer expectations along those lines when it comes to restaurants like Outback and things like the fried onion.

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Is this the Famous Original Ray's exception? Nobody cares that Manhattan is full of Famous Original Ray's, Original Famous Ray's, Ray's Original Famous, etc... (without anybody seeming to know if there was in fact at any time a One True Ray's)... A slice joint is a slice joint, and marketing is marketing? But when the technical skill increases, the obligation to respect one's betters comes into play? My lese majeste theory from a couple of pages back seems to be the principle at work here.

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This reminds me of Mac Donalds versus McDonalds in Coming To America.

Edited March 27, 2006 by inventolux (log)

[cdh]

This reminds me of Mac Donalds versus McDonalds on Coming To America.

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[sizzleteeth]

My lese majeste theory from a couple of pages back seems to be the principle at work here.

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Could part of it be that the chefs at these restaurants are holding themselves up (or being held up by others, anyway) as "high culture creative artists" an their food as "conceptual art" while the guy who invented the fried onion thing is not?

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Ding! Bingo! You sunk my battleship!!!

The rules only apply to cuisine that is in direct competition with the Kraft Foods R&D lab (or the McDonald's R&D lab for that matter).

The old "art that is simple enough that I could do it myself is not as good as art that is too complicated for me to recreate" mentality.

That is one aspect.

Another is - I guess when you get to a certain level of success, especially if the reason for

your success is largely derivative and attributable to a single entity, you have to be careful

where you say your inspiration comes from.

At one point or another saying you are inspired by Ferran Adria helps your career, then

at some point it reverses and you make sure your website, your bio, etc etc make no mention

of such a person, still, while being careful to site other influences who are not as obvious

so that you don't look like you're trying to distance yourself. A very delicate balance.

If asked in an interview you admit it but somehow diminish it... or all together avoid

the question by giving a politicians answer. Which I could point you to numerous

examples of.

You break down the arguments of any detractors by saying they are not being original

because they are "sautéing a piece of fish", but then when that same level of scrutiny

is turned upon you it is unfair or irrelevant to take it to that level, it has to be more

specific - and then - oh no it's not just that it has to be more specific - there has to

be numerous examples - otherwise it's ok.

I have to go now...

Bill Gates just borrowed a bunch of technology that he now calls "Microsoft Innovation" and

has sent cease and desist letters to anyone trying to copy his ideas and now he's doing

charity work to try and soften his image.

Edited March 27, 2006 by sizzleteeth (log)