Japanese pastry vs French pastry

[Hiro]

we talking about the different between France and Japan pastry, sometimes i wonder if le cordon bleu japan have different tehcnique comparing with le cordon bleu in france or they have another methode in scaling,technique. ingredients ? , because this school is from france but i think they (maybe) adapt their recipes with local is it ? or they stick with the origin (the basic laws of making boulangerie in france).

i think the discussion here is not like comparing apples to oranges, i dont know from others view, but as i concern we just talk the caused of the different from the start, and if its become subjective i think a little argue is fine i think it just like spice in cooking , as long its not becoming toooo subjective.

dear ptipois, so you've been thinking about this too, avec plaisir i'm glad. to reading this forums.Arigatou gozaimasu. Thank's to all too.

[bleudauvergne]

Why do French chefs leave France? The pay sucks in France. I made 6-7 times in Seoul what I made in France. I make more money as an instructor in Los Angeles teaching one shift than I would slaving away for 60 hours a week in France with my own place assuming that it would be successful. Of course this is even assuming I could even get the investors to open my own place in France. In Los Angeles, I can go cook for a wealthy family just on weekends and make more money than I would as a chef de cuisine in a pretty nice place in France. The whole system is still very old guard, old boys network. The pay scale is very different. Of course not all or even most American chefs make what I make either.

There is a guest instructor from the Ottawa Le Cordon Bleu at my school. He's from a village in the Beaujolais that is 10 minutes from where I'm from. We know many of the same people in the area. He worked with some of the greats in France. He's extremely talented. Guess why he left France?

Most of the discussion here is like comparing apples to oranges. Doesn't make sense to me to talk about the products like this. This vs that or what's better. That's subjective. Some of the comparisons too are like taking the best examples of one then comparing them to the worst examples of another.

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Everyone has their reasons, it depends on a person's priority. I certainly didn't come to France for the money. One person's wasteland is another's El Dorado.

It is kind of strange to compare two things that in principle come from completely different cultural origins. What similarities to Japanese and French pastry have that can be compared? Where exactly do these comparisons arise? In the product? In the realm of technical mastery? I suspect that the discussion on who are the better pastry chefs are based on professionals who have mastered a certain craft and perhaps have taken their rigor on to a level of perfection in their tradition. Without a clear understanding of Japanese pastry it's impossible to know what the basis is for comparison. Parallel worlds of aesthetic judgement apply unless there is a common product. Are they similar enough to compare? Or are we comparing what originated as French style pastry by tradition produced in Japan to everyday pastry made in France?

In this thread I read about how people had the best croissant of their lives in Tokyo. This makes me want very badly to try Japanese made pastry. I wonder what it was that made it better. Was it eaten on the street or presented under certain conditions in a restaurant?

[chefzadi]

Lucy

I'm talking about French chefs in response to Ptipois. I think she was wondering why French chefs leave. I gave her an answer based on my experiences and what I've heard from French chefs who've left. It is not simply a matter of priorites and chasing money.

Hiro

You can call Le Cordon Bleu office in Japan to ask about their curriculum.

[pirate]

Quote:

In this thread I read about how people had the best croissant of their lives in Tokyo. This makes me want very badly to try Japanese made pastry. I wonder what it was that made it better. Was it eaten on the street or presented under certain conditions in a restaurant?

I posted. Eaten at a hotel cafe. What made those croissants and viennoiseries so unusual? The pate feuillete leaves were so thin and so layered and so buttery that I was astonished that it could be accomplished. Let me add that a number of years ago I labored at producing a classical brioche with all its butter and eggs. I finally succeeded and so achieved a standard with which to measure all brioches I ate from then on. Frankly nothing came close. Practically all brioche one finds are the common brioche far less butterry and eggy. Or the grain had the wrong density. Getting back to those Japanese croissants, I cannot imagine that I could ever achieve results like that. It's hard to believe anyone could but they are now my measure of merit for judgment. In France the closest to them that I can remember were at at inn in Gevrey-Chambertin in the early eighties which were bought from a local boulangerie. I was in my burgundy collecting stage at that time, buying at the vineyards (with an acquit vert, of course) stuffing my rental car with cases and driving up to CDG to Air France freight for shipment to JFK.. Why burgundies? Well I had a 1959 Romanee-Conti prior to that and it became the red wine against which I measured all others.

Getting back to Japanese execution of Western pastry, I posted on the Japan forum about my first encounter with Japanese pastry in Kyoto. A slice of pound cake, quatre quarts, I believe , in French. I was struck with how delicious and how authentic it was. "Autentique" is the correct word for Japanese execution.

[Hiro]

thank's chefzadi for your suggest, why wouldn't i think of it in the first palce ? because i want to hear it from the inner circlce such as a student or theacher (am i use the right word ?)not from web, but i've contact them already, thank you chefzadi.

i still think this forum is talking about what makes it different, because when i read suzy post, i realize that flour, geographic and culture is include, in any kind of style for baking or cooking. and more and more post makes me widen my view which is i still lack of info in this baking and pastry world.

if this become story of somebody experience of eating i guess they just share story about eating experience to a friends.

sharing is a good and criticize also better, so this forum for me is a good things, isn't it ??

[chefzadi]

thank's chefzadi for your suggest, why wouldn't i think of it in the first palce ? because i want to hear it from the inner circlce such as a student or theacher (am i use the right word ?)not from web, but i've contact them already, thank you chefzadi.

i still think this forum is talking about what makes it different, because when i read suzy post, i realize that flour, geographic and culture is include, in any kind of style for baking or cooking. and more and more post makes me widen my view which is i still lack of info in this baking and pastry world.

if this become story of somebody experience of eating i guess they just share story about eating experience to a friends.

sharing is a good and criticize also better, so this forum for me is a good things, isn't it ??

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Hiro

Chef instructors are not allowed to discuss the particulars of curriculum on a forum like this. As far as I know there is one other instructor from LCB who posts here.

If you are researching an article or a paper I can be reached via email. I have quite a bit of experience with culinary schools.

Btw, I've been to Japan.

[mangosteen]

Hiro

It is interesting that you would bring up the topic of Japanese and French pastries. I have been struck recently by the ubiquity of Japanese ingredients found in pastries here in Paris. It is not surprising that Sadaharu Aoki uses them but I've seen green tea macarons a number of different places (Bon Marche, Pierre Herme, Guy Mulot come to mind). Of course I've only seen the salted plum macaron at Aoki.

I am currently living in Paris, and before that lived for a year in Bordeaux, France but I have only spent 2 weeks on vacation in Japan (which I loved!). When I was in Kyoto, I was pleasantly surprised by the pastries since I was not expecting any French or Western-style pastries at all. I enjoyed the lighter, less sweet style of treats that we picked up for breakfast every day. I would not say that these pastries were better than ones I find in France, but they definitely had a different flavour profile. I really liked the flavours but other Westerners may not. For example the use of sweetened red beans was difficult for me to get used to.

On the other hand some people (including Japanese?) might find pastries in France too rich in general. For me, the fantastic pastries in Paris are one of the reasons that I'm so excited to be living here. I have been making an effort to come home with treats from the various better known patisseries here. 7 Euros is expensive but remains affordable for most people. I work in the wine industry and if you want to compare a high end wine "treat" to a world famous pastry treat you are not even in the same ballpark. Expensive can be relative. Recently I have been going to the patisserie of Arnaud Larher, who is Breton, in the 18th and have yet to be disappointed. For my tastes the more innovative pastries by the big patissiers have actually been the least successful - olive oil and vanilla for example. I didn't get a chance to try Pierre Herme's white truffle hazelnut macaron, but that sounds pretty innovative and an example of international fusion at the same time.

[OK, I confess: Pierre Herme has been our least favourite so far. Too much - too heavy, too rich, too strong... however I loved the Emotional Mahogany: mango and lychee compotes topped with caramel marscapone and coconut daquoise. So light and flavorful. Mmmmmm.]

After tasting some of the pastries that I have recently I'm struggling to understand the claim that pastries are sub-par in Paris. I am by no means a connoisseur/connaisseur or even a sophisticated consumer of pastries. I have had the good fortune to eat pretty well in a various parts of the world but I do not have a professionally trained palate. I think most anyone who grew up in North America would be blown away by the quality of the pastries found in the patisseries of Paris. My frame of reference is Canada (Toronto) and California (LA and San Francisco) and there is absolutely no comparison. In the past few weeks I have had the best pastries of my life, all here in Paris. I'm almost giddy with the thought of the dozen boulangeries/patisseries within easy walking distance of my apartment.

[Ptipois]

I'm talking about French chefs in response to Ptipois. I think she was wondering why French chefs leave.

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As a matter or fact, I wasn't wondering at all. I was focused on the subject of pastry.

Besides, not all French chefs expatriate for the money.

[Ptipois]

I feel like comparing home baking in one country with bakery baking in another is a little bit of an apple-and-orange thing, almost unfair.

I wasn't comparing them to add fuel to the discussion, just mentioning that I rated American home bakery very high. And that, by the way, yes, I rated it higher than French shop-bought pastry in its present state. Not that it means anything in particular. Just that French commercial pastry is sort of dwindling, but I think that's kind of clear now.

But I'm replying mainly to explain what I meant by "your basis for comparison." We Americans use "your" to mean "one's" -- or, in this case, my, not actually yours. Sorry for the semantical confusion.  

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I know the different uses of "your" in English, but in this case it's true that your sentence wasn't very clear to me. Thanks for the clarification.

[chefzadi]

I'm talking about French chefs in response to Ptipois. I think she was wondering why French chefs leave.

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As a matter or fact, I wasn't wondering at all. I was focused on the subject of pastry.

Besides, not all French chefs expatriate for the money.

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I didn't say all did either. It is one of the major reasons. Look below at what I also wrote.

I'm talking about French chefs in response to Ptipois. I think she was wondering why French chefs leave. I gave her an answer based on my experiences and what I've heard from French chefs who've left. It is not simply a matter of priorites and chasing money.

I have a big pile of business cards and contacts if someone wants to interview French chefs who've left France and why.

Not directed at anyone in particular here. But these discussions turn into nitpicking games. Oh look, I'm doing it too

[ludja]

...

Getting back to Japanese execution of Western pastry, I posted on the Japan forum about my first encounter with Japanese pastry in Kyoto. A slice of  pound cake, quatre quarts, I believe , in French. I was struck with how delicious and how authentic it was. "Autentique" is the correct word for Japanese execution.

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Great thread everyone; I really appreciate the contributions so far.

Not to take the thread too far off the course of comparing and contrasting French and Japanese pastries, but when did French or western-style pastries and the variants thereof start making their appearance in Japan? I would guess that it would be sometime after WWII. Are there any particular events or influences that can be pointed to as starting the trend in Japan? When and how did it reallly take off?

Edited February 21, 2006 by ludja (log)

[SuzySushi]

Not to take the thread too far off the course of comparing and contrasting French and Japanese pastries, but when did French or western-style pastries and the variants thereof start making their appearance in Japan?  I would guess that it would be sometime after WWII.  Are there any particular events or influences that can be pointed to as starting the trend in Japan?  When and how did it reallly take off?

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That would've been in the 16th century when Castella cake (aka kasutera), a delicate spongecake, first made its appearance in Japan. It's thought to have been brought to Japan by the Portuguese, although the name may have been derived from Castile, Spain.

Castella became further popularized after a bakery called Bunmeido was established in Nagasaki in 1900. Bunmeido is now based in Tokyo and is one of the main commercial producers of castella in Japan; there's also a branch where I live in Hawaii.

I don't have any hard evidence to back it up, but I would bet that French-style pastries were popular in Japan by the early 1900s, at the latest the 1920s, when there was a Japanese passion for foreign products.

[ludja]

Thanks Suzisushi. Fascinating to know about the Portuguese connection that far back. I knew the Portuguese "got around" back then but I didn't know about their intersection with Japan. Thanks also for the tidbit on Portuguese pastry producer in Hawaii and Japan.

Any further comments from anyone on when and how Pierre Herme-style (high end French) pastries and their variants took off in Japan?

[Hiro]

Hi chefzadi i didn't know about that restriction , thank you for your offer if i need some article or have a question, i'll cocntact you. you've been to japan, did go around to have a food adventure.

[filipe]

Does anyone know where I can find YUZU ou yuzu's juice in Paris?

[David Lebovitz]

You can get Yuzu juice, and other Japanese food products, at:

Sté Kioko

46, rue des petit Champs

Tel: 01 42 61 33 65

[ludja]

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dear ludja i think the west influences not only in making cakes, the influence also in wagashi. i'm not really know about it either, but i have some web sites you can check it > http://www.kitchoan.com/E/wagashi.html

to see the various of japan pastry(not in english)>http://www.haskapp.co.jp/shop/esta.html

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Thank you for the links and information, Hiro. I also started looking at the egullet thread on wagashi.

[Hiro]

my pleasure ludja, yes you'll have many info there (thread on wagashi).

By the way does anyone / someone could tell me which country is having the most highest living cost between japan and France or maybe between paris and tokyo ?? any one please ??

[torakris]

By the way does anyone / someone could tell me which country is having the most highest living cost between japan and France or maybe between paris and tokyo ?? any one please ??

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according to msnbc, Oslo pushed Tokyo out of first place in 2005. Tokyo ranks second, Paris comes in 5th.

Edited February 24, 2006 by torakris (log)

[Hiro]

Aa Tora Hime.. O Genki desuka,, I'm Glad to have you here, i've check out the site, Thank's..

[mangosteen]

hi mangosteen, once again i want to know, in one post i read about some of the pastry shop in paris or maybe in other province is closed is that true and what is the main reason,this doesnt meant i dont beleive in what tha post said lets just say i want a second opinion.

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Hello Hiro

I would be happy to share my point of view, but I'm not sure that I understand the question. Are you asking whether many pastry shops are closed, as in gone out of business? Are you asking wether they are closed to new ideas, or have I totally missed the point? Could you please clarify?

[filipe]

You can get Yuzu juice, and other Japanese food products, at:

Sté Kioko

46, rue des petit Champs

Tel: 01 42 61 33 65

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Merci bien David! You were tremendously helpfull! And this place is just one block away from my hotel! Amazing...yuzu so close and me so desperate for it

Edited February 24, 2006 by filipe (log)

[Hiro]

sorry I hope you understand about my language problem T_T i've told before in this forums that my english is not very good, what i want to ask, is it true that so many pastry shops are closed, as in gone out of business, and why, what is the problems ? (as i read in one of the post in this forum) .

Thank you, ,

[Ptipois]

sorry  I hope you understand about my language problem T_T i've told before in this forums that my english is not very good, what i want to ask, is it true that so many pastry shops are closed, as in gone out of business, and why, what is the problems ? (as i read in one of the post in this forum) . 

Thank you, ,

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During the last 20 years, many of the best artisanal pastry shops in France, whether in Paris or in the regions, have disappeared. In Paris alone I remember Aux Cornets de Murat, rue Saint-Jacques; one wonderful pâtisserie I forgot the name of, boulevard Beaumarchais at the Bastille; Poussin, near the Jardin des Plantes; Ragueneau, in the 17th (now replaced by one branch of the Kayser chain). In Rouen, a city I know very well, traditionally famous for its butter pastry, the great Roland pâtisserie has been recently replaced by a travel agency. I don't know if Paillard is still going on, I think it is, and Meier is still sticking to the place de la Gare. Périer, which used to be my favorite pâtissier, is now a perfume shop. And so on and so on.

If you don't live in France and only visit occasionally, it is not easy to notice those changes, because indeed there are plenty of boulangeries-pâtisseries and so, some must be thinking "what is she talking about?". But I already explained why boulangeries-pâtisseries don't count because the "pâtisserie" part is only an economic necessity in them. Also, the limited hype of new-style pâtisserie (amounting to three or four shops in Paris and not many in other regions) hides what's really going on in the country. What do 60 million French people care for Ispahan or yuzu foams sold on rue Bonaparte for 7 euros when the best artisanal pastries selling true French pâtisserie are gradually disappearing all over the territory, and all that will be left to them, eventually, will be plastic-wrapped industrial pastry, or average-quality pastry bought from the closest boulanger?

As for the reasons, I'm not sure. Economy. People being manipulated into butter fear. The decadence of taste. Industrial food taking over. Elitism leading to polarization. I don't know, I'm sure it's complex. The only thing I'm sure of is that, whatever the reasons are, they can't be separated from the other current trends in French ethnofoodology.

Edited February 25, 2006 by Ptipois (log)

[Hiro]

Thank you ptipois for your respons, i have no doubt in your past explanation, but in this post you give a detail reasons, thank you so much.

(btw Kayser is germany pâtisserie, right ?)