The 'classics' of pastry

[HQAntithesis]

If you had to list what you'd call the hallmarks of traditional pastry, what would you consider them to be? I'm studying/training to be a pastrychef and have the privilege to 'toy' around after-hours and feel that the time would be best spent gaining some experience with the classics before anything else. There's a lot of books out there that have plenty of information about them but I was reading a post on this forum that mentioned apple pie and well... that's definetely something I'd have overlooked if I were to attempt a list so I was hoping that perhaps I could get some help constructing a list.

Thanks!

[Woods]

If you had to list what you'd call the hallmarks of traditional pastry, what would you consider them to be?  I'm studying/training to be a pastrychef and have the privilege to 'toy' around after-hours and feel that the time would be best spent gaining some experience with the classics before anything else.  There's a lot of books out there that have plenty of information about them but I was reading a post on this forum that mentioned apple pie and well... that's definetely something I'd have overlooked if I were to attempt a list    so I was hoping that perhaps I could get some help constructing a list.

Thanks! 

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I would suggest the French Professional Pastry Series by Escoffier and Bilheux for classics. Maybe the Secrets of Baking by Sherry Yard for more genearl things.

Baking with Julia also has a wide variety of products discussed.

Woods

[John DePaula]

I second the recommendation for the French professional pastry series by Roland Bilheux and Alain Escoffier. These books are excellent and thoroughly cover the classics. Lots of pictures, clear explanations, and helpful timeline tables that indicate how long a project should take.

Here are some links from Amazon but you may be able to find them elsewhere too:

Doughs, Batters, and Meringues

Creams, Confections, and Finished Desserts

Petits Fours, Chocolate, Frozen Desserts, and Sugar Work

[Wendy DeBord]

My answer is different. Looking back at what I've learned and what I want to learn, what's been of the most value to me as a pc..........

I'd choose to study from the best books I could lay my hands on and skip or skim over the rest. I've spent alot of time learning little bits here and there from some of the less then great pastry books........and if I could do it over again I'd just start at the top and learn that. Then find time to study more of the best info. I could find on related topics.

I believe in learning the basics, don't get me wrong! But that doesn't nessesarily mean the "classics" as I used the two terms. .........yes you should know what the classics are and what they consist of..... but I'm not sure that reproducing them is as valuable as learning from the best what the best core recipes are.

I don't own the French Professional Pastry Series of books. Well, I have bought one or two, only to return them the next day. They're good books, don't get me wrong. But they are reference books in my quick judgement. Good for research (of sorts) but not known for the best recipe on any specific item I'm familar with.

Instead I'd rather see you buy The Cooks Book and work thru Herme's and D. Lepards sections. Or get a subscription to P A & D or Sweet Art magazines and work thru their recipes. Even the Grand Finales series of books with recipes from the top pc's in the States (even though it's sort of out dated) or Claudia Flemmings book or learn how to work with chocolate from Wyabauw's book.

..........I'm sorry I've sort of taken a different response to your question...........just my opinion, for what it's worth.

[theabroma]

The fact that a major segment of 'French' baking and pastry is referred to as viennoiserie should tip you off to something. You mentioned the Sacher torte: the world of AustroHungarian pastry and baking is little known in this country, and grossly underappreciated. It is fabulous, exquisite stuff. Especially the torten. The best book I've found in English is by Christine Berl ... although George Lang's Cuisine of Hungary does have a decent pastry and torte section. The Bilheux and Escoffier series is great, but I would encourage you to look into the Middle/Eastern European pastry kitchen.

Theabroma

[John DePaula]

The Bilheux and Escoffier books are a great way to learn the basics, if that's your goal. We used these books at pastry school in Paris; they were a life-saver. And yes, they will serve you well as reference texts in the future, once you're an experienced pastry chef.

Are they the "best" recipes for everything? To know that, you have to have a baseline from which to judge. These books will give you that.

Good luck.

P.S. If you check around your area, I'm sure that someone has these books so that you can see before you buy.

[HQAntithesis]

Thanks everyone for your time and advice. At this point, time I'm a little worried about purchasing any more books because I was far less concerned in doing so in the past, some good books were gotten out of that (eg: The Professional Pastry Chef by Bo Friberg, The Chocolate Bible, by Christian Teubner, Professional Baking by Wayne Gisslen, The Cake Bible by Rose L Berenbaum, The Secrets of Baking by Sherry Yard, The New International Confectioner...) and others were... a little more generic.

I wouldn't dare claim I've a mastery of the basics, but I've found that things that require learning through repetition (which technically is everything I guess ) are best left to learn on the job. We make and use large amounts of things such as creme patissiere, whipped cream, bavarians, sponges, butter cakes, pate choux (we get to pipe and fill 2500+ profiteroles a week ), buttercream, puff pastry, danish pastry and things like that so rather than use up time and ingredients to gain further experience in my own time, I'd thought that perhaps I should look at other things: things that would be less likely to be produced frequently where I work and things that every pastrychef should at least have done once or twice before (eg pithiviers, dobos torte, St Honore, etc and lamingtons, apple pie, ladyfingers etc.). And that's what lead me to asking the question about the pastry 'classics' in terms of products such as a mille feuille as opposed to a component such as puff pastry.

Is this going off on the wrong track? Would there be a better use of free time? Admittedly I have been eyeing 'The Patisserie of Pierre Herme' and 'The Cook's Book' for a while now though the price has held me back (moreso with the Herme). Speaking of going on the wrong track, I guess I've kind of gone off the topic a bit , should I be posting this under a new thread or will it be ok here?

Theabroma: Regarding the middle/Eastern European pastry, could you please elaborate more on that? My geography was never any good and my sense of which tradition different pastry products belong to is hazy at best.

Wendy: Thank you for taking a look at the 'why's' of this approach. I am a bit confused about what you're advising though. To clarify, are you suggesting that the time would be better spent finding 'the best' core recipes (by core, do you mean components such as sponges, whipped cream, etc?) or by following the recipes of highly rated pastrychefs?

John DePaula: I think I must've overlooked those when I was windowshopping through the amazon.com website or perhaps gotten the price tag mixed up with a book by Yves Thuries. Would you recommended that three books be used as a set (that is, if I were to produce a finished dessert from the second volume using recipes for components not in the first volume but from another book... the outcome wouldn't be disastrous would it?)?

[Wendy DeBord]

To explain...........or re-explain what I was trying to say..........

Core recipes, yes I meant components.

You can and should understand the classics, but to make a really great classic dessert or contempory desserts you need really good core/components recipes. Understanding some of the differences between what makes that component recipe the best, verses another recipe for the same core/component is important knowledge.

If you make the classics, their quality is dependent on the quality of the component recipes you've used.

As a student you'll learn the core recipes the school/instructor teaches you. When you go to work for someone, you'll use their recipes. When you become a chef you'll need to have recipes you rely on. The better those recipes are the better your work will be.

I'm always trying to collect a better recipe for everything I make. But to learn which is the best recipes for each component I have to make several and compare them. That's what I was suggesting you do. Make several pate' brisee recipes (from the best sources you can find) and test them, seek the best. Make several puff pastry recipes (from the best sources you can find) and test them, seek the best. And so on. You'll always need those recipes.........and you might not ever need to know how to make the classics (just know what they consist of).

[John DePaula]

John DePaula: I think I must've overlooked those when I was windowshopping through the amazon.com website or perhaps gotten the price tag mixed up with a book by Yves Thuries. Would you recommended that three books be used as a set (that is, if I were to produce a finished dessert from the second volume using recipes for components not in the first volume but from another book... the outcome wouldn't be disastrous would it?)?

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Not at all. These books just show you techniques, procedures, and timelines. A good chef starts with a good recipe and makes it great by putting his/her personal stamp on it. You can achieve a good foundation with these books, and that's why I recommended them.