Olive Oil from Provence

[GordonCooks]

I have an Aliziari tin in cupboard currently next to bottles of Lungarotti, Pope Creek Ranch, and Maussane-Les Apilles. I'm taking exception to the statement that 100% of Olive Oils sold in France use 100% French product -

If I'm full or BS? prove it

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I'm afraid you are. You are trying to mess up words. "Olive oils sold in France" is not the same thing as "olive oils produced in France". You did begin by mentioning "growers". Enough said.

Not full of BS? Well I think you're the one who has to prove it in this case. If you can prove to me that olive oils produced in France by local growers are not 100% produced in France, this is the time to do it, for that is exactly what you said. That would be an interesting revelation and I am sure the DGCCRF (Direction générale de la concurrence, de la consommation et de la répression des fraudes) would find it very useful.

If your sources are so well informed, you'll have no difficulty bringing the proof here.

Or maybe — get out of the mess by admitting your first statement was poorly stated?

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What are the 10 most popular olive oils sold in france currently? Your position is that no french grown olive oil is ever mixed with imported product - If you provide me with the names of the companies (mainly because I don't speak french) - I'll do all the legwork.

Edited October 24, 2005 by GordonCooks (log)

[Ptipois]

I, and the AOC and AOP growers of France, are not the ones who have something to prove here and facts to provide. I rather think you are, after your undocumented accusations of an entire trade. You obviously are pretending not to understand what I have written, even bringing confusion through the use of words. This is such a display of mauvaise foi that I will not go on with this conversation unless you do answer my initial question.

Just a few things, because I am stubborn and like to make sure I have made myself clear:

- I am at loss trying to understand how you ever could come up with the so-called "purchased foreign oils" rate in, say, each one of the 10 most successful French olive oil moulins (artisanal growers) without knowing about them in the first place — since you're asking me what they are. Even more at a loss locating "the best-selling moulins" because their production is quite small and confidential and I do not even think there are figures to classify their sales. If you have a special means of investigation to analyse the oils of those artisanal moulins once I've given you their names and then detect adulteration, they must be super-human means indeed. But who knows?

- Of course, as I wrote, olive oil bottlers like Puget and L'Olivier don't count since they do blending as a rule and do not pretend to sell only French produce, we do agree on that. So they're out of the way. Chains like Oliviers & Co have made a specialty of selling AOC-AOPs olive oils in urban locations, but they do also sell some non-AOC olive oils and maybe some blends too, but everything is advertised for what it is and there is nothing to investigate there. What remains is the AOC and AOP growers, and growers who do not have the AOC but claim to sell only the product of their land. Growers then, the ones you referred to in the first place.

- If you could prove that artisanal olive growers in French moulins regularly use a proportion of foreign purchased oils in their production, then I'll be glad to forward the info to the DGCCRF (reminder: the French fraud repression office), who will be extremely interested, for this is clearly a job for them, and since I am not the origin of the info I'll be even gladder to direct the DGCCRF to you, and then you and your more informed sources may bring them precious help in uncovering a harsh, collective case of AOC fraud.

I am sorry I cannot come up with the ten artisanal moulins producing the best-selling oils, for the reasons I explained above. I can think of a few that really come out of the lot though and have achieved some fame, so we may assume they are some sort of best-sellers. So, for instance, what is the percentage of foreign purchased olive oils in:

- Moulin des Ombres, château de Montfrin (website here. This one makes it to some supermarket shelves.

- Domaine de l'Olivette, Manosque (website here.

- Moulin coopératif de Mouriès, Bouches-du-Rhône, AOC vallée des Baux (website here. Watch your ears.)

- Moulin Alziari, Nice. Website here.

- Château Virant AOC Aix-en-Provence. Website here.

- Moulin Ramade, Nyons AOC. Website here.

All those moulins have obtained medals or distinctions of some sort during the last few years, resulting in their availability to a relatively larger public and, for some, their presence on the shelves of some upper level supermarkets, or even urban supermarket chains like Monoprix. So that's the closest I can get to "best-selling French-produced oils". They are not chosen for their reputation or quality per se, but for their commercial exposure (all of them have websites).

Please note that these products emanate from "French growers" and not from bottling companies.

And let me remind that you still haven't answered my first question. I am doing you quite a favor in answering another question of yours when this first condition hasn't been fulfilled. I'm afraid the results of your search will not be worth much as long as the nature and reliability of your sources is not made clear here.

Edited October 25, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[GordonCooks]

- Of course, as I wrote, olive oil bottlers like Puget and L'Olivier don't count since they do blending as a rule and do not pretend to sell only French produce, we do agree on that. So they're out of the way. Chains like Oliviers & Co have made a specialty of selling AOC-AOPs olive oils in urban locations, but they do also sell some non-AOC olive oils and maybe some blends too, but everything is advertised for what it is and there is nothing to investigate there. What remains is the AOC and AOP growers, and growers who do not have the AOC but claim to sell only the product of their land. Growers then, the ones you referred to in the first place.

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We’re probably agreeing on more than you think

I’m discussing Vin du Pays and you’re focusing on Grand Cru

My understanding of the French olive oil industry is that AOC certified extra-virgin product is 100% French and vigorously enforced - something I've understand and have never refuted.

Not all Olive Oils consumed are extra virgin in France – my understanding is that premium virgin grades and pomace grades are supplemented with French product graded lower than extra virgin. House branded cooking olive oil bottled for mass consumption even state may not 100% French product. (I'm roughly translating the difference between mis en bouteille & produit du/de )

The chain (Auchan, Carrefour?) in particular is whom I’m referring. I may be mistaken on the store – but there had to be over 150 samples of various oils specifically branded that were being compared to Wegman’s new premium. A couple of the labels clearly state may not be 100% French product (my French may be bad but not that bad) the labels clearly state may not be 100% French product. Look at last years 2004/2005 IOOC commodity report – production versus consumption – that’s proof positive if there was any.

My source is a product manager for one of the largest supermarket chains in the country, Wegman’s – If hers is not an expert opinion – then I am at a loss. I don’t think I can make myself any clearer.

She’s back from Europe in 6 days –I will defer to her expertise.

edit sp

Edited October 25, 2005 by GordonCooks (log)

[Ptipois]

We’re probably agreeing on more than you think

I’m discussing Vin du Pays and you’re focusing on Grand Cru

Because, by referring to "growers", you were precisely focusing on the "grand crus" yourself, i.e. on artisanal production, not on the brand name bottling companies. There, exactly, laid the trouble with your statement.

By saying that growers blend their oils with foreign produce, which in France they are not supposed to do, you're pointing your finger at their trade.

I asked you immediately if you could be more specific, which was the least I could do, and only now are we getting the beginning of an explanation from you. Why is this coming so late? Wasn't I very clear from the start?

If you had only said that bottling companies sold blends, that would have been right, but not worth mentioning as a revelation coming from "informed sources", because this is no secret at all, and blended oils sold in France are never advertised as a 100% French product.

So I'm still assuming that since you wrote "growers", you were thinking of growers in the first place. Weren't you?

Maybe you still fail to see the difference between bottled brands and artisanal producers. That would explain everything.

My understanding of the French olive oil industry is that AOC certified extra-virgin product is 100% French and vigorously enforced - something I've understand and have never refuted.

So why did you write "growers" and not "supermarket commercial brands"?

Not all Olive Oils consumed are extra virgin in France – my understanding is that premium virgin grades and pomace grades are supplemented with French product graded lower than extra virgin. House branded cooking olive oil bottled for mass consumption even state may not 100% French product. (I'm roughly translating the difference between mis en bouteille & produit du/de )

Of course not all olive oils *consumed* in France are extra-virgin. Not anymore than in other countries. But nobody said otherwise. But again, directly referring to "growers" means referring to the artisanal production, which is 100% French origin. The blends you're writing about here are not 100% French product and not advertised as such. So I don't see where the problem is, and I fail to see the interest in your first statement.

And let's be exact, you began by saying that French growers were adding oil "from outside of France" and now we've turned to oil "graded lower than extra virgin". This is, again, something different. What a mess — I believe you may not have a very clear idea of what exactly you're referring to, and if you don't, how could I ever ?

The chain (Auchan, Carrefour?) in particular is whom I’m referring. I may be mistaken on the store – but there had to be over 150 samples of various oils specifically branded that were being compared to Wegman’s new premium. A couple of the labels clearly state may not be 100% French product (my French may be bad but not that bad) the labels clearly state may not be 100% French product. Look at last years 2004/2005 IOOC commodity report – production versus consumption – that’s proof positive if there was any.

Sorry, but you're still not getting it. I don't need a proof that Auchan or Carrefour supermarket blended oils are blended! Nobody claims them to be 100% French olive oil, still they are subjected to strict control in acidity level and organoleptic value.

But growers are not involved in that.

My source is a product manager for one of the largest supermarket chains in the country, Wegman’s – If hers is not an expert opinion – then I am at a loss. I don’t think I can make myself any clearer.

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Quite clear, but in no way the answer to my question following your first post... Gosh this is tough... But we have come a long way from accusing the French artisanal growers to muddling through the vast marshes of supermarket blended oils of various European origins. If this is what you meant in the first place, then you should not have used the word "growers", because this has nothing to do with growers. Is that so difficult to admit?

And besides, if really you meant "supermarket brands" and not "growers", I fail to see the relationship between plain fraud, i.e. the Baumanière affair, involving treachery on the quality and origin and the addition of lamp oils, and the controlled, measurable situation of supermarket blended oils, which is a completely different matter.

[GordonCooks]

Is this entire diatribe is over the term "growers" rather than "producers"? I promise to not cut and paste anymore blurbs from California Olive oil newsletters when entering text due to the fact a moderator asked me not to post a link by itself.

If there is anything I learned from my first marriage - it's this

You're absolutely right about everything and I'm wrong about everything.

Edited October 25, 2005 by GordonCooks (log)

[Ptipois]

Is this entire diatribe is over the term "growers" rather than "producers"?

This is getting better. What is the difference between "growers" and "producers"? Besides, you did write "growers".

I promise to not cut and paste anymore blurbs from California Olive oil newsletters when entering text due to the fact a moderator asked me not to post a link by itself.

If there is anything I learned from my first marriage - it's this

You're absolutely right about everything and I'm wrong about everything.

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I think you've been pretty dishonest in this discussion all along and I see that you have decided to remain so until the end. So be it, then.

[zilla369]

*ahem*

Your friendly moderator here. I think this thread's gone far enough afield of its topic.

I know that it's tempting sometimes to descend into the minutae of "but that's not what you said before"-type posts, but it adds very little to the discussion. Let's get back to discussing the topic at hand, rather than discussing the finer, minor points of the dicussion itself, okay?

Thanks.

[Ptipois]

*ahem*

Your friendly moderator here.  I think this thread's gone far enough afield of its topic.

I, to the contrary, believe this thread has been constantly on topic right from the beginning, and it's not that frequent.

The topic has begun with a vague, undocumented insinuation that French olive oil growers blend their oils with cheaper foreign product, brought by the Charial/Baumanière anecdote used as a dubious basis.

We are perfectly discussing the topic, but not geting anywhere, I grant you. But why precisely?

I know that it's tempting sometimes to descend into the minutae of "but that's not what you said before"-type posts, but it adds very little to the discussion.  Let's get back to discussing the topic at hand, rather than discussing the finer, minor points of the dicussion itself, okay?

Thanks.

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I'm sorry to disagree with a moderator, but I don't think the reputation of French olive oil growers/producers as making a produce according to the regulations that were legally set for it is a minor point.

It is quite a different matter to report about bottling companies selling cheaper blends, however uninteresting that may be in the context, but that has not been done, and to this very moment it is still not clear what the initial statement really was.

I have been trying to find that out and have failed, but through no fault of mine.

In the absence of any honest clarification, right now the insult on French olive oil growers is still standing unexcused, and I wish the thread wouldn't stop here.

Edited October 26, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[zilla369]

In the absence of any honest clarification, right now the insult on French olive oil growers is still standing unexcused, and I wish the thread wouldn't stop here.

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Noone's asked for the thread to stop. Rather, I'm asking - nicely - that all the accusations of "dishonesty" and the blow-by-blow "you said, then I said, then you said" nonsense be set aside in order to get back to the original topic.

[GordonCooks]

Anyone carefully reading this thread can see that her understanding of what I meant by growers is obvious.

My current interest is centering on the Société de la Vallée des Baux, and some other maker/growers/bottlers/marketers selling alleged premium product. Just how wide spread is this type of thing for it to make international news. I've always said where there is smoke, there is fire.

You wrote:

I also heard some rumors that may well echo the situation GordonCooks evokes

Would you be interested in sharing these for the good of those not involved? I look forward to further discussing this and presenting some thought provoking issues.

I'm also really interested in where the differences exist between counterfeit product in the french market and so-called "touristy Vanity" products.

[GordonCooks]

Another thing to consider - Jean-Andre Charial is such a high profile person. In addition to the restaurant/hotel - He has a very successful boutique in St Remy and also sells his product at the chains of Pierre Deux boutiques. I would think premium artisanal growers would be furious -

I can only imagine what occurs with lower profile persons.

[GordonCooks]

Another Olive Oil fraud tidbit, I guess Unilever (the importer of Bertolli Olive Oil) was victim of a class action lawsuit regarding the use of the phrase - "Imported from Itaty" when in actuality – hardly any of the oil was Italian at all. The case was settled out of court (naturally) but the end result is the EU now has to make export labels clearer

Exp – “Made in Turkey, Produced in France, Bottled in France” etc

[Ptipois]

Anyone carefully reading this thread can see that her understanding of what I meant by growers is obvious.

Really? Maybe they can enlighten me, then. Because my understanding of what you meant is close to zero. I have been trying to pin it down but the essence of it keeps slipping away like an eel. You mean one thing, then another, then you turn around 180°, then put your words in my mouth, then what. We go from growers to bottlers then to bottlers-not-producers then to growers-not-producers then back to supermarket brands which are no proof of anything special, etc. All I have given is facts and information, all you have given is hearsay and supputation, plus a good dose of playing on words. Now if anyone "reading carefully" can made heads or tails of this, their help will be welcome.

You wrote:

I also heard some rumors that may well echo the situation GordonCooks evokes

Would you be interested in sharing these for the good of those not involved? I look forward to further discussing this and presenting some thought provoking issues.

No, I wouldn't be interested at all, because I think you have a pretty confusing way of debating to say the least, and your "no smoke without fire" means of investigation is not to my liking. There's no way I'll let unbacked rumors and personal suspicion limited to an isolated case (involving a premium cooperative bottling company, by the way, and not a producer) get into your hands for any exploitation.

If it's thought-provoking issues that you want, I have nothing of the sort for you.

I'm also really interested in where the differences exist between counterfeit product in the french market and so-called "touristy Vanity" products.

←

An interesting issue, but first I would need to be aware of any "counterfeit products" in the French market and be able to identify them. And I'm afraid I'd disappoint you there. On the chapter of olive oils, I have spent some time trying to explain why counterfeit products are so unlikely because of the DGCCRF regulations, plus the AOC-AOP system, so I don't understand why you're still expecting from me any information that would bring water to your mill. I suggest you do your own research with your own methods since you obviously have that at hand.

Your idea, if I can grasp it a little, is that you're basing yourself on the Charial/SVB story — to me an isolated case with much less meaning that you seem to want to find in it — to assume this is only the visible part of the iceberg ("no smoke without fire") and that French olive oil producers (I mean producers, i.e. growers/millers, the guys who grow and press the olives and who are not supposed to blend their oil with purchased foreign produce), in fact do blend with purchased foreign produce. I have told you why that was not likely because that would be fraud. Since when has the existence of one case of fraud implied that there are many more in the same context?

This isolated case of fraud has resulted in a trial, that has been going on since 2000 and has made it to the news. The DGCCRF, AOC regulations and regular organoleptic controls and tests being what they are, the fact that no other case of fraud has been publicized since then could probably be some sort of answer to your interrogations? No?

I am the author of an award-winning book on premium, cold-pressed vegetable oils (including olive oil) for which I have done some serious researching, but I am not expecting that to be of any importance for you because it seems that you're more interested in confirming a reality that you have imagined according to your "no smoke without fire" principle. But let me tell you, this principle is not enough to let you uncover a "thought-provoking" set of facts. First the facts have to be there, and they have to be possible. Especially when the distinction between olive oil growers/producers bound by purity of origin regulations and olive oil bottling companies legally selling blends of decent quality, but bound by a different set of regulations, doesn't seem very clear to you.

No offence intended, no offence held, but I am still wondering whether you're really confusing growers and bottlers and gone all mish-mash from there, or whether you'd be actually be disappointed if you had to face the facts that French olive growers as a rule blend nothing but the produce of their own land because they'd be fined or go to jail if they didn't.

[menton1]

The Bertolli scam is old news; Besides, what does Bertolli have to do with France?

[GordonCooks]

Anyone carefully reading this thread can see that her understanding of what I meant by growers is obvious.

Really? Maybe they can enlighten me, then. Because my understanding of what you meant is close to zero. I have been trying to pin it down but the essence of it keeps slipping away like an eel. You mean one thing, then another, then you turn around 180°, then put your words in my mouth, then what. We go from growers to bottlers then to bottlers-not-producers then to growers-not-producers then back to supermarket brands which are no proof of anything special, etc. All I have given is facts and information, all you have given is hearsay and supputation, plus a good dose of playing on words. Now if anyone "reading carefully" can made heads or tails of this, their help will be welcome.

You wrote:

I also heard some rumors that may well echo the situation GordonCooks evokes

Would you be interested in sharing these for the good of those not involved? I look forward to further discussing this and presenting some thought provoking issues.

No, I wouldn't be interested at all, because I think you have a pretty confusing way of debating to say the least, and your "no smoke without fire" means of investigation is not to my liking. There's no way I'll let unbacked rumors and personal suspicion limited to an isolated case (involving a premium cooperative bottling company, by the way, and not a producer) get into your hands for any exploitation.

If it's thought-provoking issues that you want, I have nothing of the sort for you.

I'm also really interested in where the differences exist between counterfeit product in the french market and so-called "touristy Vanity" products.

←

An interesting issue, but first I would need to be aware of any "counterfeit products" in the French market and be able to identify them. And I'm afraid I'd disappoint you there. On the chapter of olive oils, I have spent some time trying to explain why counterfeit products are so unlikely because of the DGCCRF regulations, plus the AOC-AOP system, so I don't understand why you're still expecting from me any information that would bring water to your mill. I suggest you do your own research with your own methods since you obviously have that at hand.

Your idea, if I can grasp it a little, is that you're basing yourself on the Charial/SVB story — to me an isolated case with much less meaning that you seem to want to find in it — to assume this is only the visible part of the iceberg ("no smoke without fire") and that French olive oil producers (I mean producers, i.e. growers/millers, the guys who grow and press the olives and who are not supposed to blend their oil with purchased foreign produce), in fact do blend with purchased foreign produce. I have told you why that was not likely because that would be fraud. Since when has the existence of one case of fraud implied that there are many more in the same context?

This isolated case of fraud has resulted in a trial, that has been going on since 2000 and has made it to the news. The DGCCRF, AOC regulations and regular organoleptic controls and tests being what they are, the fact that no other case of fraud has been publicized since then could probably be some sort of answer to your interrogations? No?

I am the author of an award-winning book on premium, cold-pressed vegetable oils (including olive oil) for which I have done some serious researching, but I am not expecting that to be of any importance for you because it seems that you're more interested in confirming a reality that you have imagined according to your "no smoke without fire" principle. But let me tell you, this principle is not enough to let you uncover a "thought-provoking" set of facts. First the facts have to be there, and they have to be possible. Especially when the distinction between olive oil growers/producers bound by purity of origin regulations and olive oil bottling companies legally selling blends of decent quality, but bound by a different set of regulations, doesn't seem very clear to you.

No offence intended, no offence held, but I am still wondering whether you're really confusing growers and bottlers and gone all mish-mash from there, or whether you'd be actually be disappointed if you had to face the facts that French olive growers as a rule blend nothing but the produce of their own land because they'd be fined or go to jail if they didn't.

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"grasp it a little"

sorry, I'll try to keep up

I'll make it clear (as you have explicitly) that I believe that small, artisanal, gourmet olive oil growers/producer/farmers producing the highest grade AOC oils are using indigenious product. I'm looking at what is happening with oils not under the AOC umbrella (and of course Oil being sold as Premium grade but using non-french product) The amount of information available is incredible - I didn't realize Olive Oil was such a volatile issue in the EU.

What is your book? What was the award?

edit sp

Edited October 26, 2005 by GordonCooks (log)

[cigalechanta]

It was covered in the French Press. I suggest that he may have used the real thing in his restaurants and the fake bottled for his boutique in St Remy and the chain Pierre Deux. Iuse the Coop oil from the Jean Moulin in Maussane. The best IMHO

[Ptipois]

I suggest that he may have used the real thing in his restaurants and the fake bottled for his boutique in St Remy and the chain Pierre Deux.

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Yes, I think you may be right. Chefs don't usually use in their kitchens what they sell in their fancy boutiques, the sources are distinct. Besides to what extent Charial was aware of the fakeness of the oil in his boutique is not yet clear. In big houses, the stocking of the fancy shop is often the job of a different person.

The Maussane oil is indeed great. In France, I hold Le Moulin de l'Olivette in Manosque highest of all.

[Raoul Duke]

You know, almost a year has past since we've been entertained by this "discussion". For many of us on the sidelines a rematch is in order.